70 x 7

[Primevil60]

haha oh well.

[Lysimachus]

he offers no solutions

You just hit the nail on the head. He offers no solutions, nor does he offer any alternatives. That is one thing I've never appreciated about the critics of Adventism. RARELY do they provide alternatives. It's always "this is wrong, and that's wrong", but never "what's right".

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

he offers no solutions

You just hit the nail on the head. He offers no solutions, nor does he offer any alternatives. That is one thing I've never appreciated about the critics of Adventism. RARELY do they provide alternatives. It's always "this is wrong, and that's wrong", but never "what's right".

When you folk finally realize you are wrong then and only then will you be ready to talk about what is!

There is no point in talking about what is until you know that you are wrong! You cannot be healed until you know that you are sick!

God is waiting for you!

[ClubV12]

"When you folk finally realize you are wrong..."

Yup, that pretty much sums up what miz has to say on ANY subject in ANY thread, nothing more, nothing less.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

where's my popcorn??

[miz3]

where's my popcorn??

Is it Ok to have your popcorn buttered and salted?

[Kevin H]

The problem is Lysimachus, that your whole complex theories rely on a phony premise!

That premise would be the year/day stuff! There is no general principle of year/day in the Bible. There are only two very specific cases and these specific instances say nothing about being a "general principle"!

Someday it will dawn on you!

miz3: I agree that there is not a general principle of year/day in the Bible and that too often we have made a general year/day application in more places than the Bible warrens. Other times they are describing literal days in a day/year prophecy and thus we have ended up with a double application of the year/day principle. However, on the other hand there is more than just 2 specific instances. It is based on eastern cyclic thought, the cycles of Leviticus 25 and 26, and Deuteronomy 15 (which has differences from Leviticus. Leviticus reflecting the nation and religion of the south and Deuteronomy the nation and religion of the north) and the interchange of the cycles.

First, some paganism, In Egypt a day meant either the cycle of the sun or the annual flooding of the Nile. If I borrowed money from you in ancient Egypt and said that I'd pay you back in a day, I could pay it back in either the cycle of the sun or the cycle of the river and the typical Egyptian would see either appropriate. (of course I wouldn't pay you back because you say that my parameters for paying you back do not exist)

The Cycle in Leviticus was that a Hebrew week =

6 days and the Sabbath

6 months of growing seasons with Passover/Yom Kipper

6 years and the Sabbatical year

6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee (Deuteronomy does not have the Jubilee)

and from this a Hebrew cyclic day is a day, a month, a year, and depending whether or not you are a Deuteronomist, or not a 7 year period. (Daniel was a Deuteronomist, so we would not use the day/7 year period).

However we need to examine the context to see if it is say using day as a popular use of the day, a literal day, or a reference to cyclic time.

Amos 4:4 says "Come to Bethel and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years" Here is a 3rd year/day text, first as a parallel couplet where "Morning" and "Years" are seen as synonymous, second the tithe mentioned was calculated every 3 days, but here it is given a day/year interpretation. There are other texts like that as well. So there are more than just 2, and again it is based on the context on whether or not the text is focused on the cycles or not.

Again, we are not perfect in our day/year applications. We arbitrary apply it where it does and does not apply depending on the context. There is a lot more to study and to learn. However the day/year application is indeed one tool for studying the Bible and is to be applied if the context is focused on the cycles.

By the way, I need you to back up one of your earlier comments. Studying at Hebrew University's Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, a non-adventist school, they taught that when Jesus was on earth that the Jews knew that they were at the end of Daniel's 70 weeks of years and thus at the time of Jesus there were many people claiming to be the messiah, using the 70 weeks of years, and despite the historians saying that this happened, you said that it could not have happened because there is no day/year principle. So why is Hebrew University wrong and you right? And how about something more substantial than "The Jewish and Methodist professors involved are pagans."

[hch]

where's my popcorn??

byob

bring your own bag

[BobRyan]

The problem is Lysimachus, that your whole complex theories rely on a phony premise!

That premise would be the year/day stuff! There is no general principle of year/day in the Bible.

I had to sift through a number of Miz3's all-ad-hominem nothing-but-name-calling posts to find one where an actual argument was presented. I came to the wild claim above - so it "will have to do".

1. ALL the prophetic timelines of the Bible are each one contigious.

2. ALL the prophetic timelines of Daniel 7 - 12 use the day for year principle.

3. Dan 9 demonstrates the day for year principle in such clear proven terms that even non-SDAs "get it".

4. Dan 9 links the timeline of 9 with that of 8.

5. Daniel 8 reviews the SAMe little horn problem and little horn solution of Dan 7 with Daniel 8.

Thus at the very LEAST - Dan 7, 8 and 9 are using the same system.

Dan 7 includes the vast 1260 years of the dark ages of persecution of the saints - as an event that must take place before the 2nd coming.

Those who would like to pretend that such a timeline of persecution did not exist - have huge problems going far beyond Bible timelines.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The problem is Lysimachus, that your whole complex theories rely on a phony premise!

That premise would be the year/day stuff! There is no general principle of year/day in the Bible.

I had to sift through a number of Miz3's all-ad-hominem nothing-but-name-calling posts to find one where an actual argument was presented. I came to the wild claim above - so it "will have to do".

1. ALL the prophetic timelines of the Bible are each one contigious.

2. ALL the prophetic timelines of Daniel 7 - 12 use the day for year principle.

3. Dan 9 demonstrates the day for year principle in such clear proven terms that even non-SDAs "get it".

4. Dan 9 links the timeline of 9 with that of 8.

5. Daniel 8 reviews the SAMe little horn problem and little horn solution of Dan 7 with Daniel 8.

Thus at the very LEAST - Dan 7, 8 and 9 are using the same system.

Dan 7 includes the vast 1260 years of the dark ages of persecution of the saints - as an event that must take place before the 2nd coming.

Those who would like to pretend that such a timeline of persecution did not exist - have huge problems going far beyond Bible timelines.

in Christ,

Bob

Just an expression of your opinions and unfounded assumptions but lacks cogent facts!

[Gerr]

If it were a matter of accepting your collective word against mine you might have a very very small point!

However, I accept God's Word above your collective human word!

miz3, if you REALLY accepted God's word, you would have abandonned your "no year/day" and your "no choice" position a long time ago.

[Lysimachus]

Kevin H,

Are there any books that you recommend reading where you attained this knowledge on the pagan use of this day/year application? I wonder if William Shea gets into this in his "Selected Studies on Prophetic Interpretation" book? I have not read all of it yet.

[Lysimachus]

Just an expression of your opinions and unfounded assumptions but lacks cogent facts!

Bathing in your denial won't make it anymore true.

[miz3]

Whatever!

[Kevin H]

Dr. Shay does cover a lot of good material. The other books (especially on Daniel, I was not to impressed with the Revelation books) that the Biblical Research committee printed in the early 1980s have some fantastic chapters (and some poor chapters) And of course the ORIGINAL printing of Sanctuary and the Atonement.

Another fantastic book is Henri Frankfort and others "Before Philosophy" 1946 University of Chicago Press (I wish that the church would get the publishing rights and re print that book)

Another book that I have come across, and I don't know much about the writer and wonder why my professors have not referred or recommended this book, so there may be something I do not know that prevents too big a recomendation but I've liked what I've read in it and it seems to cover some of the things Frankfort had is Marcea Eliade's "Before Philosophy" and his other works. (I just noticed that he was also a professor from the University of Chicago) Too bad Desmond Ford did not get to study at the University of Chicago.

I hope this helps!

[Lysimachus]

Thanks Kevin H! I will be looking into those books!

I finished Volume 1 of Prophetic Faith Our Fathers and am almost half-way through the Volume 2 thus far. It's some heavy reading, but it is amazing to see the progression of prophetic interpretation, and how the pieces slowly began to be put together, little by little, strengthening our prophetic foundations.

It's truly amazing just how many Adventist expositors have written on these matters. Very few critics take out the time to read these hidden gems.

[12tribes]

Daniel 9:26-27

(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Israel) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:2

(2) In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:13-15

(13) As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

(14) Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

(15) And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Jeremiah 38:17-18, 23

(17) Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:

(18) But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.

(23) So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand, but shalt be taken by the hand of the king of Babylon: and thou shalt cause this city to be burned with fire.

Jeremiah 27:6

(6) And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

Because of the sins of Israel God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed.

In verse 26, after Messiah was cut off, Jerusalem was destroyed. And in verse 27, Jerusalem was destroyed after the Prince caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease! The critical question at this juncture is, does the New Testament shed any light on how the destiny of the Messiah is linked to the fate of the second city and temple? The answer is a resounding yes!

Of particular significance is the parable of Matthew 21:33-44 where Jesus reviewed the

history of Israel in five stages:

Stage # 1: God sent servants to Israel to gather fruit in harvest season but Israel rejected

God’s messengers (verses 34-35).

Stage # 2: God then sent more servants and Israel did the same with them (verse 36).

Stage # 3: God then sent them His own Son and they killed Him (verses 37-39).

Stage # 4: The wicked men who killed the Son were destroyed (verse 41)

Stage # 5: The kingdom was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles (verse 43; Acts

13:46-47).

These five stages of Israel’s history as described in Matthew 21:33-44 parallel very closely the same stages of Israel’s history as described in Daniel 9:

[Lysimachus]

Excellent posts 12tribes. Thank you for sharing, and welcome to ClubAdventist! :)

[miz3]

Thanks Kevin H! I will be looking into those books!

I finished Volume 1 of Prophetic Faith Our Fathers and am almost half-way through the Volume 2 thus far. It's some heavy reading, but it is amazing to see the progression of prophetic interpretation, and how the pieces slowly began to be put together, little by little, strengthening our prophetic foundations.

It's truly amazing just how many Adventist expositors have written on these matters. Very few critics take out the time to read these hidden gems.

More "human authorities" that erroneously use the unBiblical year/day!

[Lysimachus]

More "human authorities" that erroneously use the unBiblical year/day!

Believe it or not, the Holy Spirit utilizes human authorities to impress sacred truths in our minds:

"So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him." (Acts 8:27-31)

Your denial of God's Holy Spirit intervening through the minds of humble men is pitiful, and down right disastrous to any hopes of you coming to a knowledge of the truth.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

More "human authorities" that erroneously use the unBiblical year/day!

Believe it or not, the Holy Spirit utilizes human authorities to impress sacred truths in our minds:

"So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him." (Acts 8:27-31)

Your denial of God's Holy Spirit intervening through the minds of humble men is pitiful, and down right disastrous to any hopes of you coming to a knowledge of the truth.

You do not know for a FACT! that these authors were guided by the Holy Spirit or they were not!

You assume things that are not evident!

Do you like what they say? Yes!

However because you like what they say does not mean that they were "led", "inspired" etc. by the Holy Spirit!

I never ever said that God does not through the Holy Spirit speak through human entities!

What I am saying is that you don't know who is and who is not "inspired"!

The Bible is the ONLY RULE!

You use these "human authorities" as if they were the Bible and that is blasphemy because God has made no such a statement to humanity!

We have only your testimony and the testimony of those who agree with you and I should point out that you are not the Judge!

In fact your track record regarding what the Bible actually says is indeed pitiful!

[Lysimachus]

You do not know for a FACT! that these authors were guided by the Holy Spirit or they were not!

[miz3]

I can tell by studying their lives which ones were living righteously, in comparison to the sin-loving, worldly loving preachers of today who preach the Prosperity Gospel, drive around in fancy cars, and have nice homes. Luther, Melangcthon, Tyndale, Huss--all educated, yet very humble, and did not care about wealth. And what's amazing is that so many of these Godly men did not only speak with unanimity in their lips, but many were martyrd and died for their faith.

How DARE you think that these men were not guided by the Spirit of God. Yes, I KNOW FOR A FACT! "By their fruits ye shall KNOW THEM!".

1. "But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

1Samuel 16:7.

I was not aware that you had Godlike prerogatives that could read the "hearts of humans"?

2. Are you aware that Luther was not merely antisemitic but hated the Jews to the extent that he wanted them exterminated! I understand from what I have heard that Hitler and the Nazis used Luther's works in this regard to justify their "Jewish Solution"!

Luther also counseled the ruler to lie about his affair and secret marriage to a second wife!

So much for your man of God!

[hch]

The time frame of all unfulfilled visionary prophecy is still future. ...

This time frame began at the decree to return and build the city Jerusalem ...

[Guest]

Are you aware that Luther was not merely antisemitic but hated the Jews to the extent that he wanted them exterminated!