70 x 7

[hch]

If it was a credible date then it would be easy to see the beginning and the end! You would not have to go to the lengths you do if you were credible!

[hch]

No year/day!

No 538AD!

No 1798AD!

No 2300years!

No 1844!

No Daniel prophecy after the Roman Empire!

It is great to see the fiction for what it is

when we have the opportunity to double check the facts.

Now that we have confirmed & established

538 AD

1798 AD

confirming the Day/Year interpretation

understood the 2300-days, 2300-years doubled, & 2300-days again

verified 1843 & 1844

And followed Daniel's prophecy from Daniel's day to the present

we would do well to consider the endtime meaning of the 70-weeks (7 times)

NOW that the prophecy of Daniel is having its final fulfillment

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If it was a credible date then it would be easy to see the beginning and the end! You would not have to go to the lengths you do if you were credible!

Originally Posted By: hch

I have read the bantering and the counter posting.

The fact is that the Scriptures cite time, times and the dividing of time. This is a 1260-day period that has a literal fulfillment as 1260-years from 538-1798.

Since you refuse to recognize the 1260-days because you refuse the day for a year principle, then the abundance of evidence will not persuade you to change your view.

But the fact of the matter is that in 538 Pope Vigilus was installed over the church in Rome by the Eastern Roman Empire's army with 700 pounds of gold in his possession to finance the merger. The Church became an extension of the state at that time. The Catholic encyclopedia has all the details. Thus a Church state relationship began that has endured until the French deposed Pope Pius VI in 1798.

The prophet Daniel states that the wise will understand, so it is not to be assumed that everyone will understand. And if the world does not recognize the facts that the Bible foretells and renowned scholars do not see them, so be it. Prophecy will continue to be fulfilled as it is foretold and the end will come as an overwhelming surprise to those that could not see past the satanic shadow cast over their view.

In these last days the 42-months have been repeated from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05 and the world is oblivious to it as well. But we are in the final countdown of prophetic history and those things that were foretold are upon us whether we know it or not.

His Child Henry

Originally Posted By: miz3

Commenting on the enlarged type and the underlined part:

The relationship between the Church/State existed long before that! In days of Emperor Constantine the Great when he made Christianity the religion of the state. That was back in the fourth century! That edict and event is much more significant than the event you cite in 538AD.

Did things happen in 538AD concerning the Papacy? Of course! The question is as to history how major or minor are these events when compared to other events in history!

In that light nothing of real SIGNIFICANCE OCCURRED IN 538AD as compared to the time line of history!

It is clear ... theology!

I could write you of the pope and antipope that went to the Arian king of Italy to have the question settled "Who is the pope?" The Roman Catholic Church allowed two competing popes to go to a Sabbath keeping non-Catholic Aarian king to decide who was the real pope.

When Justinian issued the Codex, John was pope. The Eastern empire liked him and announced that all the churches and those in the orient were to be under his authority.

And then came the anti Arian pope that the Osstrogoths did not like.

Then came Pope Silverius, who it has been reported was installed because of the urging of the Goths.

Looks like Church state meddling for years.

But Vigilius was different. There was a pope in office when Vigilius arrived at Rome. The Eastern Roman Army imprisoned the pope and installed Vigilius. Then the Eastern Roman army pursued the Goths that had dared to meddle in church state affairs until they were a non-power.

So as Revelation 13;10 predicted, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:".

Pope Vigilius changed the ascension process of the papacy by 1) being installed as pope by an army, 2)taking charge of pope Silverius who died while in his care after having been imprisoned by General Belisarius.

Originally Posted By: Catholic Encyclopedia

Vigilius brought it about that the unjustly deposed Silverius was put into his keeping where the late pope soon died from the harsh treatment he received.

Pope Pius VI, the pope that was 1)deposed by the French army 2)died while in their care after being imprisoned by General Berthier.

Originally Posted By: Catholic Encyclopedia

On 10 February, 1798, General Berthier entered Rome with an army, and five days afterwards the pope was deprived of his temporal sovereignty, and a Roman republic proclaimed.

Notice the prophecy:"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:"

Fulfillment:

Pope Silverius imprisoned by General Belisarius' army so Vigilius could be pope = "He that leadeth into captivity"

Pope Pius VI imprisoned by General Berthier's army so there would be no pope = "shall go into captivity:"

Pope Silverius died in captivity

And Pope Pius VI died in captivity.

Timeframe= 538-1798 or 1260-years.

Prophecy and history align perfectly.

It is easy to see the credibility of the dates and the events.

You are welcome...

That is one of the biggest "straw grabbing" I have seen! That is not significant! No history class "highlights" what you wrote as a "significant" event. No history book cites those events as significant changes one way or the other!

This is embarrassing for you to watch you on a public forum go on and on about this. This is not serious Biblical applications.

Your little history lesson is not the "fulfillment of Revelation chapter 13 verse 10 as you are trying to assert! This is too pitiful to watch you carry on like this!

You cannot just pluck a text out of the Bible and say this historical event is the fulfillment of that prophecy! MY! My!

WEAK! WEAK! WEAK! Just embarrassing!

[Lysimachus]

I think you're living in denial Miz3. It's clearly beginning to bother your conscience, because deep down inside you know we have proved the day/year principle as well as these prophetic dates. You can't get around them!

[ClubV12]

There is to much at stake for those who have taken a strong position of opposition. It will be to embarrasing to back track and denounce what they have proclaimed as truth is now error. When they see the error of their way, for most, it will be to late. The more they speak against these things the more entangled they become by their own words and actions. Few will escape...

This was notable in the Great Disappointment. Those who had sold everything and were left destitute, relying on the goodness of those around them for support, could not endure the humiliation, the embarrasement of what they had done. They turned their backs on the truth and accepted food from those who had condemed their foolishness, so that they might not starve.

There are many ready to provide "food" to those who speak openly against the church today. They will find a large support group. Having rejected the Holy Spirit and knowing it not, many will never see the error of their ways, until it is to late.

Our words hold us in our bondage...

[Lysimachus]

Also folks here is a difference in the Sunday decrees that lead up to the one in 538:

• DECREE 1. A CIVIL Anti-Jewish decree prohibiting the observance of the Sabbath or any Jewish festival or Holiday (by Emperor Hadrian in 135 A.D.)

• DECREE 2. An ECCLESIASTICAL decree declaring the transfer of sanctity from Saturday to Sunday (316 A.D., by Pope Sylvester I -- this date is questionable, it could have been much later)

• DECREE 3. A CIVIL decree enforcing a Sunday law, prohibiting work, buying, and selling (321 A.D. by Constantine)

• DECREE 4. A LOCAL ECCLESIASTICAL decree prohibiting BOTH the observance of the Sabbath AND the enforcement of Sunday observance, defined by ECCLESASTICAL AUTHORITY ALONE. (336 A.D., Council of Laodicea—a local, Eastern, Greek-speaking synod)

• DECREE 5. A CIVIL AND ECCLESIASTICAL decree prohibiting BOTH the observance of the Sabbath AND the enforcement of Sunday observance, defined by ECCLESASTICAL AUTHORITY and SUPPORTED BY THE POWER OF THE STATE, OR CIVIL POWER! (Third Synod of Orleans – 538 A.D.) -- also first decree COMPELLING the consciences of men against ALL manual labor on Sunday with the threat of punishment.

Ellen White is clear that the change of the 4th commandment is the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Here is the unparalleled statement by Ellen White that fully mirrors our Biblical application and interpretation of Daniel 8:12 as the last prophetic specification to be fulfilled that heaven declared would mark the beginning of the 1260-day/year prophetic period:

• “The change in the FOURTH COMMANDMENT exactly FULFILLS the prophecy. For this the only authority claimed is that of the church. Here the papal power sets itself above God.”(Great Controversy, p. 476)

Her words are in harmony with Daniel 7:

• Daniel 7:25 “And he shall speak [by legislation] great words against the most High....”

We now see the commencement period of the 1260:

• "...and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." (Daniel 7:25)

Thus we see that the commencement of the "time and times and the dividing of time" is not dependent on the uprooting of the 3 horns, rather, the enforcement of Laws in opposition to God's Law in Heaven, and especially the 4th commandment.

Ellen White is clear on this matter.

• "It was in behalf of the Sunday that popery first asserted its arrogant claims; and its first resort to the power of the state was to compel the observance of Sunday as "the Lord's day." (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 446-7)

• "Royal edicts, general councils, and church ordinances sustained by secular power were the steps by which the pagan festival attained its position of honor in the Christian world." (EGW, Great Controversy, p. 574)

History shows that this Sunday Law was instituted by the Catholic Church for the first time after Civil Power was endowed upon it in the year 538 in the 28th Canon.

These are some tough nuts and bolts that miz3 is going to have to swallow, whether he likes it or not.

[Lysimachus]

As we can see, there were more things that made 538 significant than we can even begin to imagine.

Someday I'm going to document EVERY SINGLE occurrence that took place in that year to make 538 significant as a marking point for the 1260 year prophecy. From Justinan's Royal edict going into effect, to the installation of Pope Vigilius, to the removal of the Gothic impediment, to the confiscation of all the Arian churches in Italy, to the major defeat inflicted upon the Ostrogoths, to the NUMEROUS laws that went into effect in 538 concerning Festivals and Sunday legislation, and finally to the major Sunday Law enforced in the 28th Canon in the Third Synod of Orleans compelling the consciences of all men.

If just one of these events took place in 538, then surely it wouldn't prove to be that important. But the fact that ALL these events occurred in that same year, it only shows how all these additive ingredients make 538 stand out above any other year as the commencement of this Divinely appointed prophetic time!

[miz3]

I think you're living in denial Miz3. It's clearly beginning to bother your conscience, because deep down inside you know we have proved the day/year principle as well as these prophetic dates. You can't get around them!

In your dreams!

[miz3]

As we can see, there were more things that made 538 significant than we can even begin to imagine.

Someday I'm going to document EVERY SINGLE occurrence that took place in that year to make 538 significant as a marking point for the 1260 year prophecy. From Justinan's Royal edict going into effect, to the installation of Pope Vigilius, to the removal of the Gothic impediment, to the confiscation of all the Arian churches in Italy, to the major defeat inflicted upon the Ostrogoths, to the NUMEROUS laws that went into effect in 538 concerning Festivals and Sunday legislation, and finally to the major Sunday Law enforced in the 28th Canon in the Third Synod of Orleans compelling the consciences of all men.

If just one of these events took place in 538, then surely it wouldn't prove to be that important. But the fact that ALL these events occurred in that same year, it only shows how all these additive ingredients make 538 stand out above any other year as the commencement of this Divinely appointed prophetic time!

I'm not going to try and stop you from going over the cliff!

We are not buying your phony baloney attempts to prop up your unScriptural interpretations!

[Lysimachus]

I'm not going to try and stop you from going over the cliff!

We are not buying your phony baloney attempts to prop up your unScriptural interpretations!

Keep up your denial miz3! Keep it up. We'll see where it takes you.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I'm not going to try and stop you from going over the cliff!

We are not buying your phony baloney attempts to prop up your unScriptural interpretations!

Keep up your denial miz3! Keep it up. We'll see where it takes you.

I know that your path leads to ignorance! It is a shame that so many follow blindly without actually knowing the Scripture!

You have wasted hours and hours in your phony doctrine while many hunger to know Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. You talk about everything but that!

Your gospel is that the people's savior is the SDA Church while the Bible states that Jesus Christ is the ONLY SAVIOR!

[Lysimachus]

I know that your path leads to ignorance! It is a shame that so many follow blindly without actually knowing the Scripture!

You have wasted hours and hours in your phony doctrine while many hunger to know Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. You talk about everything but that!

Your gospel is that the people's savior is the SDA Church while the Bible states that Jesus Christ is the ONLY SAVIOR!

If I have wasted any hours, those were hours invested in trying to convince you of something you are completely set against, even when staring blazing evidence that completely demolish your criticisms. But I have not wasted my time in studying these facts--which only confirm my faith.

It is these pillars of faith (day/year principle, 2300 years, 1260 years, 70 weeks) that make me a Christian. These prophecies are key to believing in 1. Christ's Infinite Sacrifice on the Cross, and 2. His High Priestly Ministry.

If it wasn't for these prophetic declarations and the year-day principle, I would cease to become a Christian. It is BECAUSE of these prophecies that I AM a Christian! Without them, you might as well become an atheist.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you will believe in these prophecies. Otherwise, you are worshiping a FALSE Jesus miz3! That's right. These prophecies are the "REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST". These time periods are the EMBODIMENT OF HIS CHARACTER THAT REVEAL HIS PROMISES AND HIS WORD TO BE TRUE!! To reject them, is to REJECT Jesus, whether you choose to accept this fact or NOT!

[miz3]

The problem is Lysimachus, that your whole complex theories rely on a phony premise!

That premise would be the year/day stuff! There is no general principle of year/day in the Bible. There are only two very specific cases and these specific instances say nothing about being a "general principle"!

Someday it will dawn on you!

[Lysimachus]

But we are telling you miz3, that we are not standing on a phony premise. We are telling you that you are deceived and have believed a lie that the day/year principle is wrong. That is your problem! We have proved to you FROM THE BIBLE the VALIDITY of these principles, and you have, like a stubborn PLOWING BULLDOZER REJECTED what we have presented to you, and you will continue on this stubborn and obstinate course to your own ruin.

[miz3]

But we are telling you miz3, that we are not standing on a phony premise. We are telling you that you are deceived and have believed a lie that the day/year principle is wrong. That is your problem! We have proved to you FROM THE BIBLE the VALIDITY of these principles, and you have, like a stubborn PLOWING BULLDOZER REJECTED what we have presented to you, and you will continue on this stubborn and obstinate course to your own ruin.

The same could and is being said for you! I have shown you conclusively that the Bible does support a a "General Overall Year/Day Principle" yet "you are deceived and have believed a lie that the day/year principle is wrong. That is your problem!" "You have, like a stubborn PLOWING BULLDOZER REJECTED what we have presented to you, and you will continue on this stubborn and obstinate course to your own ruin."

[Lysimachus]

The same could and is being said for you! I have shown you conclusively that the Bible does support a a "General Overall Year/Day Principle" yet "you are deceived and have believed a lie that the day/year principle is wrong. That is your problem!" "You have, like a stubborn PLOWING BULLDOZER REJECTED what we have presented to you, and you will continue on this stubborn and obstinate course to your own ruin."

But we have already proven to you from the Word that the day/year is valid, see? You see? Yes miz3, that's right! We have shown you from the WORD that it is built on SOLID GROUND, through the use of 80 day/year parallels, along with a forced year/day application to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27--the only prophecy with a definite time period predicting the coming, anointing, and crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

You can try and turn those words back on me, but they cannot work because you have yet to deal with the mathematical, biblical, historical, contextual, and analytically arguments we have presented to you.

There's no getting around this. We will not let you off the hook.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The same could and is being said for you! I have shown you conclusively that the Bible does support a a "General Overall Year/Day Principle" yet "you are deceived and have believed a lie that the day/year principle is wrong. That is your problem!" "You have, like a stubborn PLOWING BULLDOZER REJECTED what we have presented to you, and you will continue on this stubborn and obstinate course to your own ruin."

But we have already proven to you from the Word that the day/year is valid, see? You see? Yes miz3, that's right! We have shown you from the WORD that it is built on SOLID GROUND, through the use of 80 day/year parallels, along with a forced year/day application to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27--the only prophecy with a definite time period predicting the coming, anointing, and crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

You can try and turn those words back on me, but they cannot work because you have yet to deal with the mathematical, biblical, historical, contextual, and analytically arguments we have presented to you.

There's no getting around this. We will not let you off the hook.

I am correct! The only way you can get to where you are is to add mathematical hocus pocus, historical hocus pocus, contextual hocus pocus, and analytical hocus pocus!

Why can you not read the Bible for what it says?

Why, because that would be too simple and then the poor schmucks in the pew and the poor schmucks in the street would not need you to show off your great intellectual prowess and like the Pharisees of old they would not be able to see your great spirituality. These same schmucks would not ooh! and aah! how spiritual you are!

You do it for the show before "men" because without you it not possible to know the truth so you say! Would that you had more respect before God. Instead you pray thankfully that you are not like the poor schmucks who do not understand as you do, when all the time it is you who are lacking in the true knowledge of God and His Word.

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, I need to read, again, that section in Testimonies 1 about the people reaching for the crown's. One worldly, one heavenly, some trying to reach both at the same time. "Black balls" were hurled at them, those who took their eyes off the heavenly crown found their garments stained by the black balls.

The black balls were the negative comments and insults hurled at Gods people. To often, I find myself getting stained. But I'm learning, keep your eyes on the prize, ignore the black balls.

[Lysimachus]

I am correct! The only way you can get to where you are is to add mathematical hocus pocus, historical hocus pocus, contextual hocus pocus, and analytical hocus pocus!

Why can you not read the Bible for what it says?

Why, because that would be too simple and then the poor schmucks in the pew and the poor schmucks in the street would not need you to show off your great intellectual prowess and like the Pharisees of old they would not be able to see your great spirituality. These same schmucks would not ooh! and aah! how spiritual you are!

You do it for the show before "men" because without you it not possible to know the truth so you say! Would that you had more respect before God. Instead you pray thankfully that you are not like the poor schmucks who do not understand as you do, when all the time it is you who are lacking in the true knowledge of God and His Word.

No, and no. The brethren and I have all decided here that it is you who is wrong. And if you are going to be the good Christian you claim to be, you will accept our Word above yours, because we have shown you both Biblically and Historically that our positions are built on solid ground. I don't care "how" upset you might get over our "methods". Our methods in correcting you may not be all that great. John the Baptist, John the Beloved, the Sons of Thunder, and Moses, all lost their temper in trying to correct error. But they were still right, and those being corrected were still wrong. Your "methods" in correcting you will not save you in the day of judgment.

Anyway, there isn't really much more we can say to you miz3.

Minds are like parachutes. They only work when their open.

Some minds are like concrete. All mixed up and fully set.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus, I need to read, again, that section in Testimonies 1 about the people reaching for the crown's. One worldly, one heavenly, some trying to reach both at the same time. "Black balls" were hurled at them, those who took their eyes off the heavenly crown found their garments stained by the black balls.

The black balls were the negative comments and insults hurled at Gods people. To often, I find myself getting stained. But I'm learning, keep your eyes on the prize, ignore the black balls.

Thank you ClubV12. How true those words are. It's easy to zero in on emotional comments by people rather than focusing on the Message and presenting the Truth as it is in Jesus.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I am correct! The only way you can get to where you are is to add mathematical hocus pocus, historical hocus pocus, contextual hocus pocus, and analytical hocus pocus!

Why can you not read the Bible for what it says?

Why, because that would be too simple and then the poor schmucks in the pew and the poor schmucks in the street would not need you to show off your great intellectual prowess and like the Pharisees of old they would not be able to see your great spirituality. These same schmucks would not ooh! and aah! how spiritual you are!

You do it for the show before "men" because without you it not possible to know the truth so you say! Would that you had more respect before God. Instead you pray thankfully that you are not like the poor schmucks who do not understand as you do, when all the time it is you who are lacking in the true knowledge of God and His Word.

No, and no. The brethren and I have all decided here that it is you who is wrong. And if you are going to be the good Christian you claim to be, you will accept our Word above yours, because we have shown you both Biblically and Historically that our positions are built on solid ground. I don't care "how" upset you might get over our "methods". Our methods in correcting you may not be all that great. John the Baptist, John the Beloved, the Sons of Thunder, and Moses, all lost their temper in trying to correct error. But they were still right, and those being corrected were still wrong. Your "methods" in correcting you will not save you in the day of judgment.

Anyway, there isn't really much more we can say to you miz3.

Minds are like parachutes. They only work when their open.

Some minds are like concrete. All mixed up and fully set.

If it were a matter of accepting your collective word against mine you might have a very very small point!

However, I accept God's Word above your collective human word!

Your testimony is that your theology is based on your own collective words! See your own quote above!

On the other hand I only accept the Words of God! I do not speak my own word or the words of other humans. I based everything on what God's Word, the Bible, says straight up undiluted!

Why do you dilute the Word of God with the ravings of human methods and assertions?

[Primevil60]

miz i'm curious. what is your interpretation of the 70 sevens/weeks?

[Lysimachus]

miz i'm curious. what is your interpretation of the 70 sevens/weeks?

Good luck Primevil60!! lol

[Lysimachus]

I have been asking him that question ever since I joined this board, and I have yet not discovered what his true position is. It's always "obscure" and "mystical". Nothing clear-cut.

[ClubV12]

We know much about what miz does not believe, but virtually nothing about what he DOES believe.

Most of those who post are relatively clear on where they stand. Certainly the TF guy, at least we know of his convulted theology. Dr. Rich and company, we know where they stand, as bizzare as some may think it is. Most others,,, but miz? Nothing, it's fight against, only negative, only tear down, he offers no solutions, no help, no advice. He leaves the impression he is an SDA, but continually denies even the most basic of SDA beliefs, vehemently. Yeah,,, good luck finding out anything.