70 x 7

[Gerr]

There is no General Principle of year/day in this passage.

It was to applied ONLY TO THIS CASE!

This is a no brainer!

According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.’

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Nu 14:34). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[Gerr]

What actually happened in 538 that made the Papacy the big kahuna?

What actually happened in 1798 that "wounded" the Papacy?

Pagan Rome relinquished its power and authority to the papacy 538 A.D. TO 1798 A.D.

A period of only 1260 literal days, only 3 1/2 years, falls absurdly short of fulfilling the requirements of the 1260-day prophecies in regard to the Papacy. But when, by the year-day principle is extended to 1260 years, the prophecy meets a unique fulfillment.

In 538 A.D. the Ostragoths abandoned their siege of Rome -- and this left the Bishop of Rome to excercise the perogatives of Justinian's decree of 533 A.D. the power and the authority of the Papacy grew, and grew, and grew.

Exactly 1260 years later the Papacy suffered its "deathblow."

The spectacular victories of the armies of Napoleon in Italy placed the Pope at the mercy of the French Revolutionary Government, which now advised that the Roman Religion would always be a persistant enemy of the Republic.

The government urged Napoleon to destroy the center of unity of the Roman church, and Napoleon did just that.

In 1798 the French general Berthier, with a French army, marched into Rome and proclaimed the political rule of the Papacy at an end and took the Pope prisoner. The Pope was removed to France where he died in exile.

(Quoted from Internet)

[Lysimachus]

Pagan Rome relinquished its power and authority to the papacy 538 A.D. TO 1798 A.D.

A period of only 1260 literal days, only 3 1/2 years, falls absurdly short of fulfilling the requirements of the 1260-day prophecies in regard to the Papacy. But when, by the year-day principle is extended to 1260 years, the prophecy meets a unique fulfillment.

In 538 A.D. the Ostragoths abandoned their siege of Rome -- and this left the Bishop of Rome to excercise the perogatives of Justinian's decree of 533 A.D. the power and the authority of the Papacy grew, and grew, and grew.

Exactly 1260 years later the Papacy suffered its "deathblow."

The spectacular victories of the armies of Napoleon in Italy placed the Pope at the mercy of the French Revolutionary Government, which now advised that the Roman Religion would always be a persistant enemy of the Republic.

The government urged Napoleon to destroy the center of unity of the Roman church, and Napoleon did just that.

In 1798 the French general Berthier, with a French army, marched into Rome and proclaimed the political rule of the Papacy at an end and took the Pope prisoner. The Pope was removed to France where he died in exile.

(Quoted from Internet)

Gerry, you will love Heidi Heiks books! Get them!

http://www.teachservices.com/search.php?search_query=Heidi+Heiks&x=39&y=5

Those 3 books "508, 538, 1798/1843" are tops, but he also has a "preliminary" condensed version that summarizes all 3 in one small book entitled: "508 538 1798 1843 Source Book (Preliminary)": http://www.thesourcehh.org/store.htm

However, you will have to email Heidi Heiks in how to get the preliminary. That was the one I bought before the others came out, and I bought it from Pastor Stephen Bohr's booth. You could purchase it from Pastor Bohr's SecretsUnsealed website, but it's no longer available. But it looks like you can get the FULL set on Pastor Bohr's site now:

http://store.secretsunsealed.org/merchan...gory_Code=BOOKS

Just the 538 book alone is about 330 pages. Critics of Adventism and these dates will be HARD-PRESSED to destroy the brick-by-brick foundations establishing these prophetic dates.

It's time to celebrate folks. Adventism is being vindicated in this last decade like never before. Our critics are up for grabs and are running around with their tails tucked between their legs, not knowing what to do to face the new evidence that is surfacing like a crow out of dry ashes!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

There is no General Principle of year/day in this passage.

It was to applied ONLY TO THIS CASE!

This is a no brainer!

According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.’

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Nu 14:34). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

STILL NO YEAR/DAY PRINCIPLE!

[Lysimachus]

STILL NO YEAR/DAY PRINCIPLE!

Repeating a lie doesn't make it anymore true! :)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

What actually happened in 538 that made the Papacy the big kahuna?

What actually happened in 1798 that "wounded" the Papacy?

Pagan Rome relinquished its power and authority to the papacy 538 A.D. TO 1798 A.D.

A period of only 1260 literal days, only 3 1/2 years, falls absurdly short of fulfilling the requirements of the 1260-day prophecies in regard to the Papacy. But when, by the year-day principle is extended to 1260 years, the prophecy meets a unique fulfillment.

In 538 A.D. the Ostragoths abandoned their siege of Rome -- and this left the Bishop of Rome to excercise the perogatives of Justinian's decree of 533 A.D. the power and the authority of the Papacy grew, and grew, and grew.

Exactly 1260 years later the Papacy suffered its "deathblow."

The spectacular victories of the armies of Napoleon in Italy placed the Pope at the mercy of the French Revolutionary Government, which now advised that the Roman Religion would always be a persistant enemy of the Republic.

The government urged Napoleon to destroy the center of unity of the Roman church, and Napoleon did just that.

In 1798 the French general Berthier, with a French army, marched into Rome and proclaimed the political rule of the Papacy at an end and took the Pope prisoner. The Pope was removed to France where he died in exile.

(Quoted from Internet)

No history book that I know of uses 538AD as a significant date for the rise of the papacy!

As to 1798 the Papacy had suffered more grievous wounds than that prior to 1798! Actually the Papacy suffered numerous wounds prior to this date.

I would say the Reformation years did more damage than Naps general! By 1798 the Papacy was already plowed under.

I find these dates very, very weak! Sounds like desperation to find something that fits!

[Lysimachus]

No history book that I know of uses 538AD as a significant date for the rise of the papacy!

As to 1798 the Papacy had suffered more grievous wounds than that prior to 1798! Actually the Papacy suffered numerous wounds prior to this date.

I would say the Reformation years did more damage than Naps general! By 1798 the Papacy was already plowed under.

I find these dates very, very weak! Sounds like desperation to find something that fits!

Okay, I literally burst out laughing with this comment. As if historians give a fig about prophecy! LOL.

The fact is, several historians do recognize 538 as the commencement of the Dark Ages. No desperation buddy boy. In fact, in 538 A.D., a Sunday Law was instituted for the first time that compelled the consciences of ALL MEN against any form of manual labor on Sundays, for the first time under the full authorization of the State. There is plenty of documentation to back this up.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

STILL NO YEAR/DAY PRINCIPLE!

Repeating a lie doesn't make it anymore true!

You know very well that God was making a specific punishment in this text! No where in the text does it say that this year/day is to apply to other time prophecies!

"The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: 27 “How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. 28 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 In this desert your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. 31 As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. 32 But you—your bodies will fall in this desert. 33 Your children will be shepherds here for forty years, suffering for your unfaithfulness, until the last of your bodies lies in the desert. 34 For forty years—one year for each of the forty days you explored the land—you will suffer for your sins and know what it is like to have me against you.’ 35 I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will surely do these things to this whole wicked community, which has banded together against me. They will meet their end in this desert; here they will die.”

36 So the men Moses had sent to explore the land, who returned and made the whole community grumble against him by spreading a bad report about it— 37 these men responsible for spreading the bad report about the land were struck down and died of a plague before the LORD. 38 Of the men who went to explore the land, only Joshua son of Nun and Caleb son of Jephunneh survived."

Numbers 14:26-38.

Here is the whole passage! Show me anywhere in this passage where God says this is a "General Principle" that is to be applied to all prophecy!

[Words here deleted by the moderator.]

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

No history book that I know of uses 538AD as a significant date for the rise of the papacy!

As to 1798 the Papacy had suffered more grievous wounds than that prior to 1798! Actually the Papacy suffered numerous wounds prior to this date.

I would say the Reformation years did more damage than Naps general! By 1798 the Papacy was already plowed under.

I find these dates very, very weak! Sounds like desperation to find something that fits!

Okay, I literally burst out laughing with this comment. As if historians give a fig about prophecy! LOL.

The fact is, several historians do recognize 538 as the commencement of the Dark Ages. No desperation buddy boy. In fact, in 538 A.D., a Sunday Law was instituted for the first time that compelled the consciences of ALL MEN against any form of manual labor on Sundays, for the first time under the full authorization of the State. There is plenty of documentation to back this up.

OK! You admit there is no true historical basis recognized by your own "historical authorities" that you cite so often, to the date 538AD.

Thus, you just picked a date that fit your view of prophecy!

[Lysimachus]

OK! You admit there is no true historical basis recognized by your own "historical authorities" that you cite so often, to the date 538AD.

Thus, you just picked a date that fit your view of prophecy!

My point is that, although historians provide enough information to compare the prophecies with, do not rely on historians to express the importance of such dates from God's perspective. When viewing history from God's view, certain dates stand out. When viewing these dates from political, militaric, or economic perspective, they don't necessarily stand out the same when when viewing it from a religious/Biblical perspective. For example, most secular historians wouldn't give a flying fig about a religious law that was instituted. But when comparing these events to what is said in the Bible, and God's law, and the attack on God's law, now we see the issues as far more important than what a historian would make them.

If you understand what I mean.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

OK! You admit there is no true historical basis recognized by your own "historical authorities" that you cite so often, to the date 538AD.

Thus, you just picked a date that fit your view of prophecy!

My point is that, although historians provide enough information to compare the prophecies with, do not rely on historians to express the importance of such dates from God's perspective. When viewing history from God's view, certain dates stand out. When viewing these dates from political, militaric, or economic perspective, they don't necessarily stand out the same when when viewing it from a religious/Biblical perspective. For example, most secular historians wouldn't give a flying fig about a religious law that was instituted. But when comparing these events to what is said in the Bible, and God's law, and the attack on God's law, now we see the issues as far more important than what a historian would make them.

If you understand what I mean.

In other words, you just pick and choose which historical events to cite and when it does not fit your "bogus narrative" you bail out!

That is why you can only use the Bible and the Bible only as its own interpreter,

{Words here deleted by the moderator.]

[Lysimachus]

In other words, you just pick and choose which historical events to cite and when it does not fit your "bogus narrative" you bail out!

That is why you can only use the Bible and the Bible only as its own interpreter,

Man! Have been caught in your own web of deceit!

According to you, the Bible doesn't predict anything that history has mentioned. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. To you, there are no time prophecies. To you, there are no dates. To you, there are no dates for the 70 weeks. Everything is a guessing game.

To you, there is no United States and the Papacy mentioned in the Bible. How come? Because the "United States" and the "Papacy" aren't mentioned by name! *faints*

[Words here deleted by the moderator.]

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

In other words, you just pick and choose which historical events to cite and when it does not fit your "bogus narrative" you bail out!

That is why you can only use the Bible and the Bible only as its own interpreter,

Man! Have been caught in your own web of deceit!

According to you, the Bible doesn't predict anything that history has mentioned. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. To you, there are no time prophecies. To you, there are no dates. To you, there are no dates for the 70 weeks. Everything is a guessing game.

To you, there is no United States and the Papacy mentioned in the Bible. How come? Because the "United States" and the "Papacy" aren't mentioned by name! *faints*

[Words here deleted by the moderator]

[Words here deleted by the moderator.]

[Lysimachus]

PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAIN!

I ALSO NOTICE THAT JOHN317 IS SILENT IN REGARD TO YOUR PERSONAL ATTACKS.

SEEMS KINDA ONE SIDED DOESN'T IT!

In case you missed it, it was a complete joke--I was trying to emphasize a point. A point concerning your faulty reasoning of how you determine whether the Bible is speaking about certain events or not.

[John317]

No history book that I know of uses 538AD as a significant date for the rise of the papacy!

Ever read Gibbons' The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? See the first chapter in volume 2.

538 AD was the year that the bishop of Rome began to rule without competition as "the corrector of hereticks of the Western church." So the rise of the papacy as a European power can be dated from that point.

Exactly 1,260 years later, the pope was taken captive and died in exile in France. It appeared that the papacy was finished.

Between 538 AD and 1798, the papal system was responsible for the torture and death of many, many Christians, the estimates of which are between hundreds of thousands and 50 million. In any case, all historians agree that many thousands of believers were slain because they didn't accept the authority of the papacy and the Roman Catholic faith.

Suffice it to say, also, that during those years, and since, the papacy fulfilled all of the Bible prophecies concerning the little-horn power.

[ClubV12]

I looked into this when I had a question about that date. I found the political turmoil at that time and the WAR between the Goths and the Romans (537-538) gave me a better understanding on how, and more importantly, when, this rise to power came about. In the end, I had to concur, William Miller got it right, based on history and the prophecy.

[John317]

I agree.

History records that in 533 AD, Constantine made the bishop of Rome the "corrector of hereticks" of the Western Church, but the Ostragoths had to be driven from Rome before the pope could actually function in that capacity. They were driven from Rome in 538 AD, and they were never again a serious threat to the authority of the papacy. They disappeared altogether off the pages of history within a few years.

Edward Gibbons describes these events in the first chapter of volume II of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. No historian disputes them.

[John317]

Pagan Rome relinquished its power and authority to the papacy 538 A.D. TO 1798 A.D.

A period of only 1260 literal days, only 3 1/2 years, falls absurdly short of fulfilling the requirements of the 1260-day prophecies in regard to the Papacy. But when, by the year-day principle is extended to 1260 years, the prophecy meets a unique fulfillment.

In 538 A.D. the Ostragoths abandoned their siege of Rome -- and this left the Bishop of Rome to excercise the perogatives of Justinian's decree of 533 A.D. the power and the authority of the Papacy grew, and grew, and grew.

Exactly 1260 years later the Papacy suffered its "deathblow."

The spectacular victories of the armies of Napoleon in Italy placed the Pope at the mercy of the French Revolutionary Government, which now advised that the Roman Religion would always be a persistant enemy of the Republic.

The government urged Napoleon to destroy the center of unity of the Roman church, and Napoleon did just that.

In 1798 the French general Berthier, with a French army, marched into Rome and proclaimed the political rule of the Papacy at an end and took the Pope prisoner. The Pope was removed to France where he died in exile.

(Quoted from Internet)

All well-documented and indisputably true.

[Gerr]

MIZ3: YEAR/DAY IN THE BIBLE!

Gerry, quoting: Forty days I assign you, a day for each year.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Eze 4:6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

miz3: The Bible in this text is making a specific case. It is not making a general principle. There is no General Principle of year/day in this passage.

It was to applied ONLY TO THIS CASE!

This is a no brainer!

It does take a few Betz cells to see the existence of the idea in Scripture and listening to the conviction of the Spirit.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAIN!

I ALSO NOTICE THAT JOHN317 IS SILENT IN REGARD TO YOUR PERSONAL ATTACKS.

SEEMS KINDA ONE SIDED DOESN'T IT!

In case you missed it, it was a complete joke--I was trying to emphasize a point. A point concerning your faulty reasoning of how you determine whether the Bible is speaking about certain events or not.

MY POSTS ARE NEVER TREATED THAT WAY!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

No history book that I know of uses 538AD as a significant date for the rise of the papacy!

Ever read Gibbons' The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? See the first chapter in volume 2.

538 AD was the year that the bishop of Rome began to rule without competition as "the corrector of hereticks of the Western church." So the rise of the papacy as a European power can be dated from that point.

Exactly 1,260 years later, the pope was taken captive and died in exile in France. It appeared that the papacy was finished.

Between 538 AD and 1798, the papal system was responsible for the torture and death of many, many Christians, the estimates of which are between hundreds of thousands and 50 million. In any case, all historians agree that many thousands of believers were slain because they didn't accept the authority of the papacy and the Roman Catholic faith.

Suffice it to say, also, that during those years, and since, the papacy fulfilled all of the Bible prophecies concerning the little-horn power.

If one googles:

1. "what happened in 538AD" you get a whole bunch of SDA claims. There are NO LEGITIMATE HISTORIANS OR HISTORICAL FACTS that support the date as special in history or special in the history of the RCC!

2. "when did the papacy begin" you get various sources stating the RCC position that Peter was the first pope. You also get various others citing other dates but none of them cite anything close to 538AD.

3. The best date I found for the beginning of Papal power began with two bishops of Rome, Damascus I and Siricius who existed from the middle to late fourth century! That is a long time away from 538!

This coincides with the historians who I have read!

4. The first Bishop to carry the name of Pope was Pope Herecleus (232-249AD) of Alexandria!

The first Bishop of Rome to claim the title of Pope was Pope Marcellenus who died in 304AD.

Most Historians seem to give the Papacy huge power does not occur until the 8th Century AD (that is the 700s).

None of these dates is even close to the 538AD proposed by the SDA Church! It seems that SDA are isolated on this point!

LOOKS LIKE NO HISTORICAL SUPPORT FOR THE DATE 538AD AS THE START OF THE PAPACY!

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Not wishing to bog this thread down with a complete Bible study on the matter – who? according to the red letters of Holy Writ, said, “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” (Jn 11:26)

Note: the conjunctive “and” and the Greek emphatic double negative “shall never”. Jesus Christ could not have been more forthcoming re the state of the dead “who liveth and believeth” in Him.

Quote:

Quote:hch

Thus you would have Jesus contradict Scripture?

Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Ps 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"

Jesus Christ happened, “...I am the resurrection, and the life:”

Re: Psalms 13 and 115. He addressed that matter with the following words:

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:” (Jn 11:25)

Therein, is the Resurrection; however, postJesus Christ, the promise is - “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” (Jn 11:26)

Greek, emphatic double negative. In other words, “You Can Believe This!”

[Lysimachus]

If one googles:

1. "what happened in 538AD" you get a whole bunch of SDA claims. There are NO LEGITIMATE HISTORIANS OR HISTORICAL FACTS that support the date as special in history or special in the history of the RCC!

[Lysimachus]

The fact is, the Papacy from the 1st century to the 6th century was SUBVERTED by the arm of the State! The State had the FINAL word on legislation, not the Church.

It was in 530-538 that Justinian's Code ELEVATED the laws of the Church to the SAME level of the State! In other words, whatever the Church legislated, it was declared an ecclesiastical law at the level of the State! This is only a SMIDGEN of what made 538 significant!

You don't know your facts miz3! You would rather swim in your little ignorant pool than to have to BROADEN your mind to think OUTSIDE THE BOX.

[jasd]

>>But sealing the validity of God's word is not the same as 1) shutting-up, 2) closing-up, and 3) sealing the book until the time of the end.<< [ed.jasd]

Exactly.

>>Knowing the 4-kingdoms that sealed the authenticity of Daniel's prophecy before the endtime meaning was unsealed, is not the same as understanding what was unsealed after 1798-1844 and beyond.<<

That’s the point. It is not a thing given in its entirety – as ‘understandable’ prior to the time of the end. Unless explicitly set forth – its ‘understanding’ was sealed until the time of the end – which parameters are spelled out:

“Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Those specifications cannot be applied by the expositor to anytime between AD 1798 and AD 1844. We know that by noting (in the one instance) the logistics and surgical procedures during the Napoleonic Wars.