Stan Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Wasted breath, Lysimachus! I have already shown you and everybody that the "year/day junk" is INVALID! Without your precious "year/day junk" your whole nest of tangled knots goes down the tube. NO 1844, NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT, just SDA arrogance! jasd is correct in that Hiram Edson tried to pluck your patooties out of the fire with switcharoo desperation (known in some circles as "hail mary"). Unfortunately it falls apart because it is based on fantasy junk, the year/day junk. Like I said you can believe anything you want but honest brokers must finally come to the conclusion that the "year/day junk" does not exist as applicable to the Book of Daniel! Lose the sarcasm or leave the forum Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Lysimachus Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Quote: The verb "cut off." The verb used by Gabriel in his first statement about the 70 weeks is a passive (Niphal) form of the root hatak (seventy weeks are determined upon thy people"). This root means either "to cut off" or "to determine, decree." Because this is the only passage in the OT where the word occurs, its meaning here has been disputed. The meaning of "determine, decree" has been derived from Mishnaic Hebrew that dates a millnnium later than Daniel's time. However, even in Mishnaic writings the term was more commonly used with the meaning of "cut off." It is a recognized principle of Semitic philology that the extended meaning of Semitic verbs develop rom concrete meanings in the direction of abstract concepts. Thus, it is sound to infer that the root meaning of this word involved the concrete idea of cutting. The abstract ideas of determining or decreeing are the later development from this root idea. In Daniel's time, therefore, this word already meant "to cut." Whether the extended meaning of "decree, determine" had developed by then, cannot be determined at present due to a lack of comparative evidence. The only significant comparative material, from Ugaritic Canaanite of the thirteenth century B.C., lends some support to the idea that this root's basic verbal notion was that of cutting, not decreeing or determining. Thus, these three lines of evidence--(1) root meaning over extended meaning, (2) the case of a Ugaritic cognate, and (3) the predominant meaning in later Mishnaic sources--all favor (but do not fully prove) that this verb should be translated "cut off" here. Its apparent meaning emphasizes the idea that the 70 weeks were understood to be cut off from the 2300 days mentioned in the preceding prophecy. (70 Weeks, Leviticus, Nature of Prophecy, The Prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 William H. Shea, p. 107) Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Wasted breath, Lysimachus! I have already shown you and everybody that the "year/day junk" is INVALID! You mean like you've claimed to've shown everyone that none of us is a free moral agent? I think we get the picture. :-) You have forgotten Matthew chapter seven and the parable of the "Good and Bad Trees"! Its not a claim, IT'S A FACT! A FACT FROM THE BIBLE! Quote
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Wasted breath, Lysimachus! I have already shown you and everybody that the "year/day junk" is INVALID! Without your precious "year/day junk" your whole nest of tangled knots goes down the tube. NO 1844, NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT, just SDA arrogance! jasd is correct in that Hiram Edson tried to pluck your patooties out of the fire with switcharoo desperation (known in some circles as "hail mary"). Unfortunately it falls apart because it is based on fantasy junk, the year/day junk. Like I said you can believe anything you want but honest brokers must finally come to the conclusion that the "year/day junk" does not exist as applicable to the Book of Daniel! Lose the sarcasm or leave the forum I'm sorry Stan but this seems a bit one-sided. Others are allowed to use "sarcasm" but I an not? The three previous posts before me were filled with sarcasm and ridicule but only I am to stop. I have seen sarcasm used profusely throughout this forum! Like I said it seems a bit one-sided to me! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2011 Moderators Posted July 30, 2011 >>LeRoy Froom lays the DEATH KNELL against those who think this was an Adventist invention. Expositors the world-over understood this basic principle.<< Froom? wouldn't that be like, self-attestation? His volumes on this topic are highly regarded by non-SDA historians and Bible scholars. Froom's documentation is indisputable on this topic. It sounds like you are rejecting Froom's books without having studied them, simply because he was a Seventh-day Adventist. If that is the case, it says more about you than it does about history or Froom's books. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2011 Moderators Posted July 30, 2011 You have forgotten Matthew chapter seven and the parable of the "Good and Bad Trees"! Its not a claim, IT'S A FACT! A FACT FROM THE BIBLE! But you are misunderstanding those verses. Jesus is there talking about how to tell a false prophet from a genuine prophet. Those verses don't say that people have no choices over whether they will serve God or Satan. We make ourselves who we are-- whether a good or bad tree-- by the all the choices we make over our lifetimes, from the time we're young children until we're adults. But even when we're adults, God gives us the power to change. Through God's power and grace-- through His Holy Spirit-- a bad tree can become a good tree because Christ is living within. You're sadly mistaken if you think Jesus is saying we have no choice in what kind of person we become. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You have forgotten Matthew chapter seven and the parable of the "Good and Bad Trees"! Its not a claim, IT'S A FACT! A FACT FROM THE BIBLE! But you are misunderstanding those verses. Jesus is there talking about how to tell a false prophet from a genuine prophet. Those verses don't say that people have no choices over whether they will serve God or Satan. We make ourselves who we are-- whether a good or bad tree-- by the all the choices we make over our lifetimes, from the time we're young children until we're adults. But even when we're adults, God gives us the power to change. Through God's power and grace-- through His Holy Spirit-- a bad tree can become a good tree because Christ is living within. You're sadly mistaken if you think Jesus is saying we have no choice in what kind of person we become. A resounding Amen John317! Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 John317 and Lysimachus, It is not talking just about prophets it is talking about every person who will exist! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2011 Moderators Posted July 30, 2011 Let Jesus tell us who he's talking about in these verses: Quote: Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. It's true that we can apply the same principles to all people, but Jesus is telling His followers how to tell the difference between a false prophet and a true: Look carefully at the fruits or results of their lives and of their teachings. But notice that Jesus is not implying that a bad tree has no choice but must always go on being a bad tree. This is not his topic. For that topic, one must turn to other passages in the Gospels. His entire Sermon on the Mount-- as well as all the rest of His teaching-- is based on the assumption that people are free moral agents and able to choose Christ over Satan. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Let Jesus tell us who he's talking about in these verses: Quote: Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. It's true that we can apply the same principles to all people, but Jesus is telling His followers how to tell the difference between a false prophet and a true: Look carefully at the fruits or results of their lives and of their teachings. But notice that Jesus is not implying that a bad tree has no choice but must always go on being a bad tree. This is not his topic. For that topic, one must turn to other passages in the Gospels. His entire Sermon on the Mount-- as well as all the rest of His teaching-- is based on the assumption that people are free moral agents and able to choose Christ over Satan. Verse sixteen, says "do men" it does not say "do prophets"! Verse seventeen "every good tree" it does not say "every prophet tree"! Verse eighteen says "a good tree" it does not limit that the tree has to be a prophet! It is definitely talking about all human entities! Verse nineteen says "every tree" that bears bad fruit is destroyed. It does not say that only bad prophets will be destroyed. Once again verse nineteen is unmistakeable in referencing all humans. Not just prophets. It is clear Jesus is setting down a General Principle about all humans. That General Principle is that humans (including prophets) are "what they are because of what they are"! or Humans "do what they do because of what they are"! Just like a thorn bush cannot produce grapes, so bad humans cannot produce good works. Quote
Guest Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Miz3, you totally ignored the question I asked in post # 462502 Quote: Since you are obviously not an SDA, why is it that you choose to come here and argue with us about what we know and believe? I'm sure you aren't doing it just to keep us on our toes. Do you just enjoy arguing? What is it? Is this something that you're just not willing to share with the rest of us? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2011 Moderators Posted July 30, 2011 ... Just like a thorn bush cannot produce grapes, so bad humans cannot produce good works. Is it your contention that Jesus taught that bad humans have no choice but to go on being bad humans? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 ... Just like a thorn bush cannot produce grapes, so bad humans cannot produce good works. Is it your contention that Jesus taught that bad humans have no choice but to go on being bad humans? YES! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 30, 2011 Moderators Posted July 30, 2011 So how does a lost person become saved? Quote
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 The Power of God! "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25-26. "37 For nothing is impossible with God." Luke 1:37. "Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” 27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God." Luke 18:26-27. God has the answer right there in the Word of God (Bible)! Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Looks like miz3 has fallen for the heresy called "Calvinism". "Predestined to hell!". Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Looks like miz3 has fallen for the heresy called "Calvinism". "Predestined to hell!". FALSE! I do not subscribe to Calvinist theology! You are attempting to smear what I am actually saying! Quote
Lysimachus Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus Looks like miz3 has fallen for the heresy called "Calvinism". "Predestined to hell!". FALSE! I do not subscribe to Calvinist theology! You are attempting to smear what I am actually saying! When you take away man's "will", and say only God can save you with His power if He chooses, you are indirectly subscribing to Calvinistic Predestination. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Guest Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Miz3, Are you a Muslim behind a "christian" curtain? I have encountered a number of them who come to christian message boards and they talk just like you do Is this true m3, are you really a muslim? Quote
miz3 Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus Looks like miz3 has fallen for the heresy called "Calvinism". "Predestined to hell!". FALSE! I do not subscribe to Calvinist theology! You are attempting to smear what I am actually saying! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 30, 2011 Moderators Posted July 30, 2011 Then how come some repent and some don't? Quote
hch Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: HCH "Gabriel makes it very clear that he is explaining the 2300-years to Daniel in chpt 8. Thus when Gabriel states " Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be." Gabriel is not revealing truths about Babylon and Medo-Persia that come before the 2300-years began or at their beginning; Gabriel is making known "what shall be in the last end" which is to say when the 2300-years are ending in 1798, 1844, and beyond. That being true, Gabriel is citing Medo-Persia and Grecia (powers present at the beginning of the 2300-years)to foreshadow kings that are present after the end of the 2300-years. The horns in Daniel 8 are the 4 kings from the earth identified in Daniel 7:17. The last one is in power now and the time of trouble spoken by Daniel the prophet has begun." Isn't it equally as likely that Daniel was pleading with God to lessen the 70 years of Jeremiah? Perhaps he was afraid he wouldn't live that 70 years to see the temple rebuilt? I'm having trouble seeing evidence that God decided to explain the 2300 evenings and mornings over 10 years later. go easy on me as i'm just starting to study Daniel Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com
hch Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Primevile, Daniel thought that God was extending the 70 year captivity to 2300 years. That's why Daniel fainted in horror. Imagine the pain he was going through. Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com
miz3 Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 Then how come some repent and some don't? This is an excellent question! "how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?" Hebrews 2:3. (some translation us the word "neglect") "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12:32. Thus, humans are lost because they REJECTED GOD'S SALVATION AND REJECTED GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT! 1. Some REJECT outright the Salvation of Christ's finished work on the Cross! (Justification). 2. Some REJECT the Work of the Holy Spirit. (Sanctification). As the Holy Spirit works in us humans it is then and only then that we are able to see that we need to "repent", "confess", "change", "seek", "obey", "trust", "reconcile", "ask God for power to overcome sin", "to actually feel true sorrow for sinning against God, to have LOVE for God and LOVE FOR OTHER HUMANS, to gain Victory over sin, to ask God for Truth when you read His Word, etc. etc. Like the paralytic at the Pool of Bethsaida the Holy Spirit injects God's Power in us to accomplish His Commands. Unfortunately doubts among other things creep in and the opportunity gets lost. However, God in His Infinite Mercy gives us opportunity after opportunity to be healed. This process is a step by step process and does not occur in the same sequence for other humans as it occurs for you. It is only possible to for you to desire God because of the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit puts that desire in you without your permission. Unfortunately many humans REJECT the Work of the Holy Spirit and actively work against the Holy Spirit. Eventually the Holy Spirit has been REJECTED TO POINT THAT IT GIVES UP WORKING IN THE HUMAN ENTITY! When that happens you are lost forever! Only God decides when that point is reached! 3. CAUTION! You cannot know where other humans are in regard to whether they have REJECTED GOD OR NOT! ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND GOD KNOW THAT! God is the only Judge and He alone decides when someone has REJECTED HIM! Quote
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