Twilight II Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 What exactly is our "old man"? Over to you. Mark :-) Quote
miz3 Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 What exactly is our "old man"? Over to you. Mark :-) The "sinful nature" Paul tells us so much about. The "sinful nature" that makes us what we are and forces us to do what we do as sinners. God through Jesus Christ has freed us from the slavery of the "sinful nature" and made us slaves to God in the Spiritual Nature. As such the "sinful nature" is indeed the "old man" that keeps coming back hoping to enslave us once again to his will. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 I would agree and would add this: Their are two "mans" discussed in Romans 5. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: The above first "one man" is Adam. Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. The second "one man" is Christ in verse 15. So when we come to Romans 6:6 and it says our "old man", it is referring to the "one man" of Romans 5:12, which is one of the "one mans" from the previous verses. Our sinful nature which we inherited, our identity in Adam that we were born with, that is the old man which was crucified. The "one man" of verse 12. Which leads to some interesting thoughts... Quote
Sonny Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 What exactly is our "old man"? Over to you. Mark :-) Rom7:44 So, my brothers, you also died to the law [it demanded your death] in the body [humanity] of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature (compare to Eph 2:3), the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Our "old man" is the life we received from Adam. Quote
miz3 Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 I would agree and would add this: Their are two "mans" discussed in Romans 5. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: The above first "one man" is Adam. Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. The second "one man" is Christ in verse 15. So when we come to Romans 6:6 and it says our "old man", it is referring to the "one man" of Romans 5:12, which is one of the "one mans" from the previous verses. Our sinful nature which we inherited, our identity in Adam that we were born with, that is the old man which was crucified. The "one man" of verse 12. Which leads to some interesting thoughts... I agree........ Quote
Twilight II Posted September 5, 2011 Author Posted September 5, 2011 So here is the question... If I am "in Christ" and my "old man" has been crucified (the Adamic man), do I still have sin "in me"? Quote
Sonny Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 So here is the question... If I am "in Christ" and my "old man" has been crucified (the Adamic man), do I still have sin "in me"? "In Chirst" you have a new life. That life is in heaven. Your life comes from Adam. It is indwelt by sin. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 5, 2011 Author Posted September 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II So here is the question... If I am "in Christ" and my "old man" has been crucified (the Adamic man), do I still have sin "in me"? "In Chirst" you have a new life. That life is in heaven. Your life comes from Adam. It is indwelt by sin. But what happens when that old life is crucified, put to death? Quote
12tribes Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 Romans 8:7-9 (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The old man has no desire to keep God's law or to walk in the light that is why we need to be born again with new desires and new principles, the desire to keep God's law comes from the Holy Spirit working on our heart Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Twilight II Posted September 15, 2011 Author Posted September 15, 2011 But does not the Holy Spirit also remove the old desires? Quote
12tribes Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 But does not the Holy Spirit also remove the old desires? No we have to die daily Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Neil D Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II What exactly is our "old man"? Over to you. Mark :-) The "sinful nature" Paul tells us so much about. The "sinful nature" that makes us what we are and forces us to do what we do as sinners. God through Jesus Christ has freed us from the slavery of the "sinful nature" and made us slaves to God in the Spiritual Nature. As such the "sinful nature" is indeed the "old man" that keeps coming back hoping to enslave us once again to his will. off the top of my head, with a popporri of thoughts running thru it, I'm gonna put electronic dots to the screen...... Whaaaat if we really don't want to really get down and dirty as to what this "old man of sin" really is....what if, what we are willing to talk about is the abstract individual that has no real tangable portion to ourselves....we can talk about that without ever really talking about ourselves, because he is a faceless, humorless, person that really has no bearing to us....We have created a selfless, faceless, greedy individual who really doesnt exist..... if we truely want to crucify ourselves,we need a name, a face, a personallity...we need to identify ourselves...and then crucify that person on the cross..... once we have done that, we find that we die.............. ........and are resurrected by Jesus, created by Him, with His values and the personality that He wants us to have...We develop His interests, His personality...and our focus becomes Him...because we become as He is....and then people will tell/ask us how we've changed ..and are different... Just my thoughts... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Twilight II Posted September 15, 2011 Author Posted September 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II But does not the Holy Spirit also remove the old desires? No we have to die daily So the new man is given but the old man stays? Is that what the bible says? Quote
Twilight II Posted September 15, 2011 Author Posted September 15, 2011 Whaaaat if we really don't want to really get down and dirty as to what this "old man of sin" really is....what if, what we are willing to talk about is the abstract individual that has no real tangable portion to ourselves....we can talk about that without ever really talking about ourselves, because he is a faceless, humorless, person that really has no bearing to us....We have created a selfless, faceless, greedy individual who really doesnt exist..... if we truely want to crucify ourselves,we need a name, a face, a personallity...we need to identify ourselves...and then crucify that person on the cross..... once we have done that, we find that we die.............. What if we do not really believe the old man was crucified and the Word of God is incorrect? But as to your point, what if it is as you say an "individual" that needs to be identified? Does the bible do that for us? Quote
Robert Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 But does not the Holy Spirit also remove the old desires? Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other,... Clearly the above shows that the believer has flesh (a sinful nature) that is opposition to the Spirit. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 16, 2011 Author Posted September 16, 2011 Yes, but does God leave that nature there or does He deal with it Robert? Quote
12tribes Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II But does not the Holy Spirit also remove the old desires? Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other,... Clearly the above shows that the believer has flesh (a sinful nature) that is opposition to the Spirit. Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Robert Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Yes, but does God leave that nature there or does He deal with it Robert? It remains until you die.... When human beings receive holy flesh (our humanity free from indwelling sin), they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to “change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body.”—Selected Messages 2:33 (1901). Quote
Robert Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 Here's another one: The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). Quote
Administrators Gail Posted September 18, 2011 Administrators Posted September 18, 2011 Is that my ol' friend Robert posting again? Nice to see you back! :) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Twilight II Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 You present an interesting ideology Robert. But it is unfortunate in this one thing. This text: Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Does not support your view. So it seems that a piece of the puzzle is missing from your jigsaw. What do you think about the above text? I suspect you are going to say it is "objective" rather than "subjective". But that cannot hold true as it is a totally "subjective" statement. Over to you. :-) Quote
Robert Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Here's the context: Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They (the sinful nature and the Spirit) are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. The Spirit, when allowed, can override the desires of our sinful nature. However, the fact is, we still retain this indwelling sin even after conversion. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Here's the context: Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They (the sinful nature and the Spirit) are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. The Spirit, when allowed, can override the desires of our sinful nature. However, the fact is, we still retain this indwelling sin even after conversion. Paul here talks of a progessive experience in the expression of being led by the flesh and then having the fruit of the Spirit revealed. But there is something definite here at the end, about the experience of the believers. They "have" put to death "crucified", their flesh with its affections and lusts. There is a finality about that experience and Pauls statement. To say it "hangs around" is to disagree with this text it seems. Maybe if it is "hanging around" we haven't really understood what it is to have the flesh crucified? Maybe we are excusing our "old man" and making room for him in our beds? Quote
Robert Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 If we are free of our sinful natures then we would have what Ellen White termed "holy flesh". Christ, by assuming our humanity, had to deal with the sinful nature, but He never sinned. Not until the resurrection did Christ, as the Son of Man, have Holy flesh. It is a mistake to think we are rid of our sinful natures. It remains until glorification. Quote
BobRyan Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II But does not the Holy Spirit also remove the old desires? Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other,... Clearly the above shows that the believer has flesh (a sinful nature) that is opposition to the Spirit. So also does Romans 3 support this "no one seeks after God - no not even one". Sinful nature is clearly the propensity and the proclivity to sin - the inner desire to do evil... the inner disposition such that Paul can say of fallen mankind having a sinful nature "no one seeks after God - no not even one". in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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