Twilight II Posted September 23, 2011 Author Posted September 23, 2011 Certainly Christ's model is one of complete and total victory over sin. No question. And certainly we struggle. I also agree that sanctification is the process of separating sin from the soul - by practicing what we know to be truth. But the sinful nature - though weakened every day as we walk the walk of sanctification - is with us until the 2nd coming. That does not mean we must sin even one day after becoming a Christian. When you kneel down to pray you are not sinning - when a sinner stops and repents and turns to Christ - he is not sinning. To simply "stop sinning" for a while is available to all - from day 1. It is not the sign that you are fully sanctified or that you no longer have a sinful nature. in Christ, Bob We need to keep the idea of the "sinful nature" and "sinning" seperate Bob, otherwise we start mixing up the two. Many Adventists think "sin" is what we do, and that is true. But it is also "what we are". We are "sinful". So for God to deliver us from sin, He has to deal with the underlying "sinfulness", which Jesus did no the Cross and which Paul taught us. And God did deal with that sinfulness. Many Adventists believe that the "sinful nature" was put into prison and is kept there by the Holy Spirit. But that is not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that God "crucified" the sinful nature. Not just the sins, but the nature itself. Sure there is a constant revealing of that nature and a constant death to that nature and receipt of the new nature, that is what we call sanctification. This is the experience the 144,000 will have. Their flesh will not be in "prison", the flesh will have been crucified... And they will have learned to receive that by abiding in Christ. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 23, 2011 Author Posted September 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II The Subjective truth is that I receive that death of the Old Man "experientally". Christ, by assuming our humanity, had to deal with our sinful nature for over thirty years. Only when Christ as the Son of Man died did our nature come to an end. On Sunday morning Christ was raised with holy flesh. He was raised glorified. 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. We are changed, glorified, at the resurrection. Then we lose the nature. Until then it is a struggle....The struggle is to surrender the will so that God can defeat the natural tendencies of our sin nature. At the resurrection/glorification we lose our human "bodies" and any sin still in that body that we are ignorant of... You see, when we start to claim that our "sinful nature" can only be dealt with at that point, we remove the power of the gospel. And that is a power that changes us, it changes our "nature". It takes our "sinful nature" and exchanges it for Gods "divine nature". That is what "sanctification" is.... An exhange of "natures". Quote
Robert Posted September 24, 2011 Posted September 24, 2011 That is what "sanctification" is.... An exhange of "natures". Sanctification is where the believer grows by giving God control over his/her nature. The day you think your nature is gone that day you stand completely deceived. What does John state? "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves". Quote
Members phkrause Posted September 24, 2011 Members Posted September 24, 2011 Certainly Christ's model is one of complete and total victory over sin. No question. And certainly we struggle. I also agree that sanctification is the process of separating sin from the soul - by practicing what we know to be truth. But the sinful nature - though weakened every day as we walk the walk of sanctification - is with us until the 2nd coming. That does not mean we must sin even one day after becoming a Christian. When you kneel down to pray you are not sinning - when a sinner stops and repents and turns to Christ - he is not sinning. To simply "stop sinning" for a while is available to all - from day 1. It is not the sign that you are fully sanctified or that you no longer have a sinful nature. in Christ, Bob Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Twilight II Posted September 25, 2011 Author Posted September 25, 2011 In Christ, when we abide in Christ, the sinful nature is crucified. But the moment we step out of Christ it comes back to life. So the issue to victory is: 1. Seeing that the victory over our sinful nature is totally completed in Christ. 2. Then receiving that total victory by faith. 3. Then remaining in that victory by faith. This is "righteousness by faith". Mark :-) Quote
Robert Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 "In Christ" in the heavenly places, our humanity is free of indwelling sin, but as children of Adam we retain our sinful nature until glorification. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 29, 2011 Author Posted September 29, 2011 But we are not only "in Christ", He is also "in us"... Abide in me and I in you. He brings that crucified state to us and expresses it within us as we abide in Him by faith... It is Objective AND Subjective. Quote
Robert Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 We are not free of our sinful nature. Don't fool yourself. The moment you think you are it will have more control of you. Quote
Guest Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 We are not free of our sinful nature. No we're not Robert, I agree. Still not a license to sin though. If you link up with God, there is no limit to the power He will provide. Quote
olger Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 twue ! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Robert Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert We are not free of our sinful nature. No we're not Robert, I agree. Still not a license to sin though. That's what Gal chapter 5 is about. Notice the struggle between the Spirit and the sinful nature: 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert We are not free of our sinful nature. No we're not Robert, I agree. Still not a license to sin though. If you link up with God, there is no limit to the power He will provide. We are free, if we abide in Christ. In Christ, our sinful nature (caveat - known sin), is crucified. But the minute we stop abiding in Christ. Old man is back... Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: RLH No we're not Robert, I agree. Still not a license to sin though. That's what Gal chapter 5 is about. Notice the struggle between the Spirit and the sinful nature: 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Notice verse 25 Robert... Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Two Questions: 1. What is the Old Man? 2. Do you believe the Old Man was crucified with Christ? Quote
Robert Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 But the minute we stop abiding in Christ. Old man is back... Then it was never dead. It was only dominated by the Spirit of God as we walked in the Spirit. Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II But the minute we stop abiding in Christ. Old man is back... Then it was never dead. It was only dominated by the Spirit of God as we walked in the Spirit. It is dead in Christ, that is what Paul says, no mention of "dominated" by the Spirit of God. Paul said it that way for a reason. What he wanted us to understand was that if we abide in Christ, the sinful nature is gone (known sin). It is "not alive" still. This is also important because it gets our focus onto "abiding in Christ", which is the only way to gain victory. Saying the flesh "is dominated" by the Spirit, removes the meaning of Pauls words and is not in fact expressed like that in the bible. Quote
Robert Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 Two Questions: 1. What is the Old Man? 2. Do you believe the Old Man was crucified with Christ? 1] Our old life from Adam is "our old man". It stands condemned because of the fall and it is indwelt by iniquity (our bent to self). 2] Yes, our old life died when Christ died. How? Because at the incarnation Christ assumed our fallen life under the curse. Quote
Robert Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 What he wanted us to understand was that if we abide in Christ, the sinful nature is gone (known sin). Your unknown sins are still sin and it is produced by sin dwelling in you. Quote
Robert Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 It is "not alive" still. Then you would be without sin. You would live Christ's life in every detail. Keep in mind that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Keep in mind that "there was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ." Ellen White goes on to state that those who have accepted Christ "will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them." Growing is positive, but growing implies that we are not full grown and therefore we are not living Christ's life, which answers all the law. So the sin nature is definitely not dead. The minute you think it's gone it has deceived you into believing you are sinless. Here's Ellen White: He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900 Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II It is "not alive" still. Then you would be without sin. You would live Christ's life in every detail. Keep in mind that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Keep in mind that "there was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ." Ellen White goes on to state that those who have accepted Christ "will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them." Growing is positive, but growing implies that we are not full grown and therefore we are not living Christ's life, which answers all the law. So the sin nature is definitely not dead. The minute you think it's gone it has deceived you into believing you are sinless. Here's Ellen White: He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900 I did not see anyone claiming they are "holy" or "sinless" Robert, did you? The bible states, that when we are abiding in Christ, the old man is indeed dead. As the texts posted have indicated. Quote
Robert Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 I did not see anyone claiming they are "holy" or "sinless" Robert, did you? If your sin nature were indeed dead you would be sinless. You would have holy flesh. Your sin nature doesn't improve with age....It doesn't get better...or become more holy. It remains 100% rotten. What hopefully improves is your surrender of your nature to the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit will override the sinful natures desires, but the nature still remains until you die. Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Two Questions: 1. What is the Old Man? 2. Do you believe the Old Man was crucified with Christ? 1] Our old life from Adam is "our old man". It stands condemned because of the fall and it is indwelt by iniquity (our bent to self). 2] Yes, our old life died when Christ died. How? Because at the incarnation Christ assumed our fallen life under the curse. What is strange Robert, is that you agree the the "Old Man" was crucified, and that our "old life" is dead. But you then want to make that an "objective" experience only. I understand your caution. But Paul plainly states that this is to be our "subjective" experience as well. You are denying that we have a "subjective" experience in this, which contradicts Pauls plain statements. Do you understand what I am saying? Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II I did not see anyone claiming they are "holy" or "sinless" Robert, did you? If your sin nature were indeed dead you would be sinless. You would have holy flesh. Your sin nature doesn't improve with age....It doesn't get better...or become more holy. It remains 100% rotten. What hopefully improves is your surrender of your nature to the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit will override the sinful natures desires, but the nature still remains until you die. That is a nice thesis Robert, but it is not biblical. The "crucifixion" of the old man was a reality on the cross. Then that "reality" is supplied by the Holy Spirit, in a manner I do not claim to understand. But that "reality" is only experienced as the believer abides in Christ. This is the biblical truth of the matter. This idea that we must be "pals" with the old man the rest of our lives is a false gospel... Quote
Twilight II Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 Many Adventists are focused on suppressing the "old man" and denying him. But that is not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that we are to accept its defeat by abiding in Christ. The false gospel that teaches that we have to accept the fact that the "old man" is not in reality crucified experientially in us, is one of the root causes of our failure to overcome as a people. Its a bit like dealing with a disease. Many Adventists are running around saying that the "cause" of the disease cannot be dealt with, only the symptoms. But God states He has dealt with the cause as long as we follow his strict course of treatment. The reason we have not overcome as a people is, I believe, founded in this simple misunderstanding. We "cosey up" with the old man, rather than accept the glorious truth that God has dealt with him. So we focus on "gritting our teeth" and live a "torturous" life of failure, seeking to deny the flesh. Instead of by faith, simply accepting we already have the victory in Christ. Me, I am not up for that "gritting of teeth" experience. I want the peace of Christ. Quote
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