Our old man was crucified...?

[BobRyan]

Here's another one:

The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18).

Indeed we are not "that holy thing" at our birth - for in us "dwelleth no good thing".

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

So also does Romans 3 support this "no one seeks after God - no not even one".

Sinful nature is clearly the propensity and the proclivity to sin - the inner desire to do evil... the inner disposition such that Paul can say of fallen mankind having a sinful nature "no one seeks after God - no not even one".

in Christ,

Bob

So, the christian has two natures...always warring with each other.....

Robert is correct....and Bob speaks of a nature that is only found in the unconverted....

[Twilight II]

So God can never "really" gain victory over our nature we inherit from Adam?

The promises of the bible are lies?

O ye of little faith...

[Neil D]

So God can never "really" gain victory over our nature we inherit from Adam?

The promises of the bible are lies?

O ye of little faith...

Oh, so the victorys that you gain currently are glorification now?

My understanding is that Glorification happens at the 2nd coming...when does your perfection start?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

So God can never "really" gain victory over our nature we inherit from Adam?

The promises of the bible are lies?

O ye of little faith...

Oh, so the victorys that you gain currently are glorification now?

My understanding is that Glorification happens at the 2nd coming...when does your perfection start?

I see no mention of glorification in the posts above?

[Robert]

I see no mention of glorification in the posts above?

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...

Flesh (Greek: Sarx) denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man

Your nature dies when you physically die. At the resurrection you will be raised without indwelling sin. You will be changed.

[Neil D]

I see no mention of glorification in the posts above?

How else do you expect perfection to come about? thru a nature that is already sin laden? Rubish!

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I see no mention of glorification in the posts above?

How else do you expect perfection to come about? thru a nature that is already sin laden? Rubish!

So what do you make of Pauls statement here:

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Many claim that "the flesh cannot be dealt with by God before the second coming", always fail to address this text...

As to how victory over sin comes about, it comes through the death of the old nature and receipt of the new nature...

It is a gift from God.

-------------------------

PS.

I noticed you tried to insert "perfectionism" into the argument there, as you did with "glorification" in your previous post. It is twice now that you have bought in a concept I have not mentioned.

I do not think you are really listening to what I am discussing, because you keep jumping to assumptions and bringing in subjects I have not even mentioned.

You then seem to want to argue against the things you bring into the discussion as if they are "my position".

Wouldn't it be polite to first ascertain my position before trying to argue against it? :-)

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I see no mention of glorification in the posts above?

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...

Flesh (Greek: Sarx) denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man

Your nature dies when you physically die. At the resurrection you will be raised without indwelling sin. You will be changed.

What if your "nature" dies when you accept that death "in Christ" Robert?

Have you considered that?

[Neil D]

Spiritualizing everything, Steve, doesn't make sense.

[Words here edited by Moderator.]

[Moderator: poster later apologized for calling TwilightII "Steve."]

[Robert]

What if your "nature" dies when you accept that death "in Christ" Robert?

Have you considered that?

The humanity that Christ assumed was our humanity indwelt by iniquity. He dealt with "sin in the flesh" (see Romans 8:1-4). The difference is that Christ never allowed that nature to cause Him to sin. We have and as we are growing we still fail. If we died once to sin then we wouldn't have to "die daily", right?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

What if your "nature" dies when you accept that death "in Christ" Robert?

Have you considered that?

The humanity that Christ assumed was our humanity indwelt by iniquity. He dealt with "sin in the flesh" (see Romans 8:1-4). The difference is that Christ never allowed that nature to cause Him to sin. We have and as we are growing we still fail. If we died once to sin then we wouldn't have to "die daily", right?

Leaving aside Christ's humanity for a moment (this has been discussed at length on here recently)...

When we talk about the "death of the old man", the view that it is something that has to be repeated day in day out I think is wrong.

I see rather that Paul is talking about a "progressive" death of the old sinful nature and a progressive revelation and acceptance of the new nature.

The man who has overcome "smoking" does not wake up every day with an overpowering urge to smoke.

At some point in that mans experience the desire for cigarettes turns into repulsion.

It is the same with the rest of the fleshly "lusts and desires".

As we receive the "new man" and give the "old man" over to God to crucify we are changed from image to image.

So Christ died on the Cross and we died with Him.

But that death has to be received and it is not received all at once, but is recieved over time.

The receipt of the new "man", coincides with the death of the old "man".

As we by faith are shown an aspect of Christ's character and by default see an aspect of our fallen character, we reach out and take that aspect of Christ's character by faith.

Now once we have done this, we have to "remain" in Christ.

We have to "abide in Christ", we have to receive that new life daily, we have to receive Christ daily as spiritual food.

But we do not "lose" the new man because we have gone to sleep at night.

We "lose" the new man when we "step out" of Christ.

Once we are in Christ, we have two things to deal with.

The "fiery darts" of Satan (his tempting thoughts).

And any aspect of the "old man" that have not been given to Christ to be crucified, through ignorance of its existance.

----------------------

I think the idea that the "old man" is never really dealt with on a permanent basis is not scriptural.

And many mix up the progressive growth of the "new man" with a daily struggle with the old man coming back to life...

And I think that is dangerous and extremely limiting and one of the main reasons we as a people do not understand how to get victory over sin...

[Robert]

Leaving aside Christ's humanity for a moment (this has been discussed at length on here recently)...

[Robert]

Also keep in mind that Christ had to deal with temptation (the sin nature) until He died on the cross:

In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times Christ was tempted — once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.”

Here's the Desire of ages: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.”

"For we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin." [Hebrews 4:15]

"...each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed (that's the sin nature). Then the lust, when it has conceived, [when the mind accepts it] bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death." James 1:14,15

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Leaving aside Christ's humanity for a moment (this has been discussed at length on here recently)...

But the humanity Christ assumed was our humanity indwelt with sin. That's why I brought this up....

[Twilight II]

Also keep in mind that Christ had to deal with temptation (the sin nature) until He died on the cross:

In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times Christ was tempted — once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.”

Here's the Desire of ages: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.”

"For we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin." [Hebrews 4:15]

"...each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed (that's the sin nature). Then the lust, when it has conceived, [when the mind accepts it] bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death." James 1:14,15

This is again dealing with the nature of Christ.

And I can fully understand your drawing towards this, but if we could hold back from that for a short while, I would appreciate it. :-)

[Robert]

Because many believe, I feel erroneously, that that removal does not happen at all...

It happens at glorification.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Because many believe, I feel erroneously, that that removal does not happen at all...

It happens at glorification.

No, it happens past tense.

Paul does not present that position.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

This text is "past tense", it talks of a work completed.

Not a work to come.

[Robert]

Not a work to come.

Okay, how did you kill your nature off? I would like to duplicate that....I too would like holy flesh.

[Robert]

1 Tim 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Okay, here Paul is instructing Timothy about the rich in the church. Why would Paul have Timothy warn the wealthy believers not to be arrogant, but instead be willing to share if they had holy flesh?

Keep in mind that temptation comes from within:

MARK 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery....

JAMES 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

JAMES 1:14 each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed

And don't forget Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Notice that the two laws:

Law of my mind (will power)

Law of sin

Even though the mind loves God's law and is in agreement with it our will power is no match against our bent to self (sin). Hence in Romans chapter 8 you have "the law of the Spirit". It is this power that can say no to "the law of sin", but nowhere do you find that "the law of sin" has been killed off. We will struggle with "the law of sin" until we die.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Not a work to come.

Okay, how did you kill your nature off? I would like to duplicate that....I too would like holy flesh.

Who said anything about "Holy Flesh" Robert?

The "Holy Flesh" movement were claiming they had no capacity to sin, that sin could not lay claim of them.

Just to be clear, I am making no such claim...

But as to how your "flesh", lusts and desires is crucified, what does Paul say?

Where and when was our flesh crucified?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

[Twilight II]

We will struggle with "the law of sin" until we die.

Not if you abide in the objective truth of what Christ did and apply it to yourself by faith subjectively...

[Robert]

Where and when was our flesh crucified?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom 6:7 is stating that if you are dead you can no longer sin. The question is where did we die? The answer: In Christ. We died in the humanity of Christ. His death was a corporate death. You can't apply this to yourself as an individual. You are not dead to sin. If you were you wouldn't sin. Dead men can't sin.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

We will struggle with "the law of sin" until we die.

Not if you abide in the objective truth of what Christ did and apply it to yourself by faith subjectively...

Eccl 7:20 There is not a just man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

[BobRyan]

So also does Romans 3 support this "no one seeks after God - no not even one".

Sinful nature is clearly the propensity and the proclivity to sin - the inner desire to do evil... the inner disposition such that Paul can say of fallen mankind having a sinful nature "no one seeks after God - no not even one".