Our old man was crucified...?

[Robert]

So Jesus took sinful flesh but not a sinful mind.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: John317

So Jesus took sinful flesh but not a sinful mind.

yes....

Quote:

Would you say then that Jesus had "indwelling sin"?

Jesus assumed our humanity indwelt with a sin nature (indwelling sin).

The bible does not state that Christ had a sinful nature.

Or that he experienced any propensity to sin.

This idea is common amongst Adventists, yet there is not one explicit statement in the scripture to support it.

Not one.

There are texts people like to "infer" this from, by linking 2 or 3 unrelated out of context texts together.

But don't you think it curious, that something as fundamental about Christ's nature has no explicit statement anywhere in the scripture to support it?

The minute we start inferring from 2 or 3 unrelated texts to prove a point, is the minute our doctrine has about as much standing as Sunday observance...

[Twilight II]

Can someone please show me one "explicit" text that states that Christ had "lusts in his flesh"...?

[John317]

Lust is of the mind, and Christ's mind was not sinful.

We will always have sinful flesh/fallen nature until Christ returns, but God is in the business of remaking our minds to be like Christ's. That is part of what it says in Hebrews 8 and 10 when it promises that God will write His law on our minds and hearts. He literally changes our minds to become like the mind of Christ.

[John317]

....The bible does not state that Christ had a sinful nature.

Or that he experienced any propensity to sin.

This idea is common amongst Adventists, yet there is not one explicit statement in the scripture to support it.

Quote:

Christ stooped to take man's nature, that He might reveal the sentiments of God toward the fallen race. Divine power was brought within the reach of all, that sinful human beings might reveal the image of God. Christ assumed our nature in order to counterwork Satan's false principles. He came to give by His ministry an expression of the mind of God. {ST, May 16, 1900 par. 2}

We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}

How this is accomplished, Christ has shown us. By what means did He overcome in the conflict with Satan? By the Word of God. Only by the Word could He resist temptation. "It is written," He said. And unto us are given "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature. . . ." Every promise in God's Word is ours. . . . When assailed by temptation, look not to circumstances or to the weakness of self, but to the power of the Word. All its strength is yours. {FLB 23.5}

Each person must obtain an experience for himself. No one can depend for salvation on the experience or practice of any other man. We must each become acquainted with Christ in order properly to represent Him to the world. "His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3). None of us need excuse our hasty temper, our misshapen characters, our selfishness, envy, jealousy, or any impurity of soul, body, or spirit. . . . {AG 235.3}

We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . {AG 235.4}

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. . . . In Him there is inexhaustible fullness. . . . {AG 235.5}

God has given us every facility, every grace. He has provided the riches of heaven's treasure, and it is our privilege to draw continually from this capital. {AG 235.6}

[Robert]

We will always have sinful flesh/fallen nature until Christ returns, but God is in the business of remaking our minds to be like Christ's.

Thank you John. Maybe this can put this baby to sleep now...

All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). [EGW]

[John317]

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

Letter 67, 1902. {7ABC 450.5}

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united Himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing He could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam (YI Dec. 20, 1900). {4BC 1147.4}

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.--The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1896. {7ABC 452, 453}

He for our sakes laid aside His royal robe, stepped down from the throne in heaven, and condescended to clothe His divinity with humility, and became like one of us except in sin, that His life and character should be a pattern for all to copy, that they might have the precious gift of eternal life.--The Youth's Instructor, Oct. 20, 1886. {7ABC 453.1}

He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family.--Letter 97, 1898. {7ABC 453.2}

Harmless and undefiled, He walked among the thoughtless, the rude, the uncourteous.--The Desire of Ages, p. 90. {7ABC 453.3}

Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. God was manifest in the flesh. He humbled Himself. What a subject for thought, for deep, earnest contemplation! So infinitely great that He was the Majesty of heaven, and yet He stooped so low, without losing one atom of His dignity and glory! He stooped to poverty and to the deepest abasement among men.--The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 453.4}

Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal.--The Desire of Ages, p. 112. {7ABC 453.5}

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {7ABC 452.2}

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.-- The Desire of Ages, p. 49. {7ABC 452.3}

-Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.--Manuscript 94, 1893. {3SM 131.1}

Heavenly beings ministered to Christ in His need, yet this did not make the Saviour's life one of freedom from conflict and temptation. He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. If His people will follow this example, they will be imbued with His Spirit, and heavenly angels will minister to them. {3SM 131.2}

The temptations to which Christ was subjected were a terrible reality. As a free agent He was placed on probation, with liberty to yield to Satan's temptations and work at cross-purposes with God. If this were not so, if it had not been possible for Him to fall, He could not have been tempted in all points as the human family is tempted. {3SM 131.3}

The temptations of Christ, and His sufferings under them, were proportionate to His exalted, sinless character. But in every time of distress, Christ turned to His Father. He "resisted unto blood" in that hour when the fear of moral failure was as the fear of death. As He bowed in Gethsemane, in His soul agony, drops of blood fell from His pores, and moistened the sods of the earth. He prayed with strong crying and tears, and He was heard in that He feared. God strengthened Him, as He will strengthen all who will humble themselves, and throw themselves, soul, body, and spirit, into the hands of a covenant-keeping God.

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, “in all points tempted like as we are;” but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of

27

prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. 47 {CSA 26.5}

As God He could not be tempted, but as a man He could be tempted, and that strongly, and could yield to the temptations. His human nature must pass through the same test and trial Adam and Eve passed through. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. He was passing over the ground where Adam fell. He was now where, if He endured the test and trial in behalf of the fallen race, He would redeem Adam’s disgraceful failure and fall, in our own humanity. {CTr 213.4}

A human body and a human mind were His. He was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . He was subject to disappointment and trial in His own home, among His own brethren. He was not surrounded, as in the heavenly courts, with pure and lovely characters. He was compassed with difficulties. He came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan’s lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. . . . {CTr 213.5}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 6, pp. 110-112). {CTr 213.6}

God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {DA 311.2}

The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3}

The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. Jesus was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of man; yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was God in the flesh. His character is to be ours. The Lord says of those who believe in Him, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." 2 Corinthians 6:16. {DA 311.4}

Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His

312

nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect." {DA 311.5}

[John317]

[skyblue888]

Jesus took our sinful flesh but not a sinful mind.

______________

This is the bottom line message delivered by A.T. Jones at the 1895 Gereneral Conference regarding this subject.

In a nutshell:

"Therefore Jesus Christ came in just such flesh as ours, but with a mind that held its integrity against every temptation, against every inducement to sin,--a mind that never consented to sin,--no, never in the least conceivable shadow of a thought." A.T. Jones, 1895 G.C. Bulletin, p.328.

sky

[Twilight II]

Lust is of the mind, and Christ's mind was not sinful.

We will always have sinful flesh/fallen nature until Christ returns, but God is in the business of remaking our minds to be like Christ's. That is part of what it says in Hebrews 8 and 10 when it promises that God will write His law on our minds and hearts. He literally changes our minds to become like the mind of Christ.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

....The bible does not state that Christ had a sinful nature.

Or that he experienced any propensity to sin.

This idea is common amongst Adventists, yet there is not one explicit statement in the scripture to support it.

Quote:

Christ stooped to take man's nature, that He might reveal the sentiments of God toward the fallen race. Divine power was brought within the reach of all, that sinful human beings might reveal the image of God. Christ assumed our nature in order to counterwork Satan's false principles. He came to give by His ministry an expression of the mind of God. {ST, May 16, 1900 par. 2}

We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}

How this is accomplished, Christ has shown us. By what means did He overcome in the conflict with Satan? By the Word of God. Only by the Word could He resist temptation. "It is written," He said. And unto us are given "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature. . . ." Every promise in God's Word is ours. . . . When assailed by temptation, look not to circumstances or to the weakness of self, but to the power of the Word. All its strength is yours. {FLB 23.5}

Each person must obtain an experience for himself. No one can depend for salvation on the experience or practice of any other man. We must each become acquainted with Christ in order properly to represent Him to the world. "His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3). None of us need excuse our hasty temper, our misshapen characters, our selfishness, envy, jealousy, or any impurity of soul, body, or spirit. . . . {AG 235.3}

We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . {AG 235.4}

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. . . . In Him there is inexhaustible fullness. . . . {AG 235.5}

God has given us every facility, every grace. He has provided the riches of heaven's treasure, and it is our privilege to draw continually from this capital. {AG 235.6}

No scripture here John317...

When I say scripture, I am specifically referring to the bible.

[Twilight II]

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

Letter 67, 1902. {7ABC 450.5}

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united Himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing He could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam (YI Dec. 20, 1900). {4BC 1147.4}

Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.--The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1896. {7ABC 452, 453}

He for our sakes laid aside His royal robe, stepped down from the throne in heaven, and condescended to clothe His divinity with humility, and became like one of us except in sin, that His life and character should be a pattern for all to copy, that they might have the precious gift of eternal life.--The Youth's Instructor, Oct. 20, 1886. {7ABC 453.1}

He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family.--Letter 97, 1898. {7ABC 453.2}

Harmless and undefiled, He walked among the thoughtless, the rude, the uncourteous.--The Desire of Ages, p. 90. {7ABC 453.3}

Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. God was manifest in the flesh. He humbled Himself. What a subject for thought, for deep, earnest contemplation! So infinitely great that He was the Majesty of heaven, and yet He stooped so low, without losing one atom of His dignity and glory! He stooped to poverty and to the deepest abasement among men.--The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 453.4}

Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal.--The Desire of Ages, p. 112. {7ABC 453.5}

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Special Instruction Relating to the Review and Herald Office, and the Work in Battle Creek, May 26, 1896, p. 13. {7ABC 453.6}

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {7ABC 452.2}

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.-- The Desire of Ages, p. 49. {7ABC 452.3}

-Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.--Manuscript 94, 1893. {3SM 131.1}

Heavenly beings ministered to Christ in His need, yet this did not make the Saviour's life one of freedom from conflict and temptation. He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. If His people will follow this example, they will be imbued with His Spirit, and heavenly angels will minister to them. {3SM 131.2}

The temptations to which Christ was subjected were a terrible reality. As a free agent He was placed on probation, with liberty to yield to Satan's temptations and work at cross-purposes with God. If this were not so, if it had not been possible for Him to fall, He could not have been tempted in all points as the human family is tempted. {3SM 131.3}

The temptations of Christ, and His sufferings under them, were proportionate to His exalted, sinless character. But in every time of distress, Christ turned to His Father. He "resisted unto blood" in that hour when the fear of moral failure was as the fear of death. As He bowed in Gethsemane, in His soul agony, drops of blood fell from His pores, and moistened the sods of the earth. He prayed with strong crying and tears, and He was heard in that He feared. God strengthened Him, as He will strengthen all who will humble themselves, and throw themselves, soul, body, and spirit, into the hands of a covenant-keeping God.

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, “in all points tempted like as we are;” but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of

27

prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. 47 {CSA 26.5}

As God He could not be tempted, but as a man He could be tempted, and that strongly, and could yield to the temptations. His human nature must pass through the same test and trial Adam and Eve passed through. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. He was passing over the ground where Adam fell. He was now where, if He endured the test and trial in behalf of the fallen race, He would redeem Adam’s disgraceful failure and fall, in our own humanity. {CTr 213.4}

A human body and a human mind were His. He was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . He was subject to disappointment and trial in His own home, among His own brethren. He was not surrounded, as in the heavenly courts, with pure and lovely characters. He was compassed with difficulties. He came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan’s lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. . . . {CTr 213.5}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 6, pp. 110-112). {CTr 213.6}

God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {DA 311.2}

The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3}

The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. Jesus was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of man; yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was God in the flesh. His character is to be ours. The Lord says of those who believe in Him, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." 2 Corinthians 6:16. {DA 311.4}

Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His

312

nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect." {DA 311.5}

When Ellen White used the terms "sinful nature", she never used it in the context of having "propensities to sin" in His flesh.

Never.

But always referencing the fallen human body He received, in that it was a mortal body subject to the same weaknesses as ours.

Unless we have a reference where Ellen White stated that "sinful nature" meant "indwelling propensitites to sin", then these quotes are being misunderstood and misused.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: John317

We will always have sinful flesh/fallen nature until Christ returns, but God is in the business of remaking our minds to be like Christ's.

Thank you John. Maybe this can put this baby to sleep now...

All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). [EGW]

When you show that the Bible or Ellen White stated anywhere that Christ had "indwelling sin" in His flesh, then you can put it to rest.

[Twilight II]

Jesus took our sinful flesh but not a sinful mind.

______________

This is the bottom line message delivered by A.T. Jones at the 1895 Gereneral Conference regarding this subject.

In a nutshell:

"Therefore Jesus Christ came in just such flesh as ours, but with a mind that held its integrity against every temptation, against every inducement to sin,--a mind that never consented to sin,--no, never in the least conceivable shadow of a thought." A.T. Jones, 1895 G.C. Bulletin, p.328.

sky

Sorry, I don't have the book of A.T. Jones in my bible Sky...

Does it not concern any of you that you are defending a position that has no support in the scripture whatsoever?

Have you all missed the fact that unless you can show it from the scripture, then you should not present it.

And you definitely should not represent a position as error unless you have clear scriptural support.

We don't accept tradition, we are not "Catholics".

I am extremely alarmed that so many that view themselves as "protestants" find it so easy to hold onto a position that has no scriptural basis...

[Twilight II]

So where is this one "single" text that states that Christ had "indwelling sin"?

Where is it?

It is not there, otherwise one of you would have posted it.

Doesn't that fill you with even one ounce of "caution" on this subject?

[Robert]

So where is this one "single" text that states that Christ had "indwelling sin"?

Where is it?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh , 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NRS)

God condemned "sin in the flesh" by sending His Son "in the likeness of sinful flesh". How?

1] For 30 plus years Christ defeated "sin in the flesh" because His mind never gave into it, not even by a thought.

2] And then on the cross our humanity, indwelt with sin (our bent to self) died in the humanity of Christ.

[John317]

[John317]

When Ellen White used the terms "sinful nature", she never used it in the context of having "propensities to sin" in His flesh.

Never.

But always referencing the fallen human body He received, in that it was a mortal body subject to the same weaknesses as ours.

Unless we have a reference where Ellen White stated that "sinful nature" meant "indwelling propensitites to sin", then these quotes are being misunderstood and misused.

Quote:

Sunday afternoon I spoke in the same hall on the subject of temperance to a good congregation, who listened with the deepest interest. I had freedom and power in presenting Jesus, who took upon himself the infirmities and bore the griefs and sorrows of humanity, and conquered in our behalf. He was made like unto his brethren, with the same susceptibilities, mental and physical. He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin; and he knows how to succor those who are tempted. Are you harassed and perplexed? So was Jesus. Do you feel the need of encouragement? So did Jesus. As Satan tempts you, so he tempted the Majesty of heaven. Jesus, as your representative and substitute, did not yield on the field of conflict; and in his strength you may resist and conquer. Every fallen son and daughter of Adam may rejoice that they are prisoners of hope, and that Satan can be vanquished. {RH, February 10, 1885 par. 7}

Roget's Thesaurus lists susceptibilites and propensities as synonyms.

Quote:

Though He had all the strength of passion of humanity, never did He yield to temptation to do one single act which was not pure and elevating and ennobling. {HP 155.7}

So Christ had these passions and propensities but He controlled them, and so lived without sinning.

Consider the following usages of "propensity" and "passions":

Quote:

We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . The Faith I Live By, page 23.

Quote:

He is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions. 2 T 202

Though He had all the strength of passion of humanity, never did He yield to temptation to do one single act which was not pure and elevating and ennobling. {HP 155.7}

Quote:

Although their evil propensities may seem to them as precious as the right hand or the right eye, they must be separated from the worker, or he cannot be acceptable before God. TM 171, 172

[Robert]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death.

Oh, I left one more out:

3] The power of the Spirit defeated "the law of sin" and it's wages (death). The question is where? "In Christ".

In other words the the Holy Spirit defeated "the law of sin" in Christ's assumed humanity.

What is "the law of sin"? Back up to Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. ...22 ...I see in my members (my flesh - my humanity) another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members (my flesh).

Here's the difference - Christ never fell captive to "the law of sin" that dwelt in the humanity that He assumed. His mind never gave into temptation from "the law of sin".

[John317]

I left some out, too:

Quote:

The great work of redemption could be carried out only by the Redeemer taking the place of fallen Adam. With the sins of the world laid upon Him, He would go over the ground where Adam stumbled. He would bear a test infinitely more severe than that which Adam failed to endure. He would overcome on man's account, and conquer the tempter, that, through His obedience, His purity of character and steadfast integrity, His righteousness might be imputed to man, that, through His name, man might overcome the foe on his own account. {Con 17.3}

What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him. {Con 17, 18}

[Twilight II]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh , 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NRS)

Yes, on the cross Robert.

Not at His inception...

It has been clearly shown to you before, that Christ took our sinful nature on Himself at the cross.

[Twilight II]

So Christ had these passions and propensities but He controlled them, and so lived without sinning.

[Robert]

It has been clearly shown to you before, that Christ took our sinful nature on Himself at the cross.

How did He receive a sinful at the cross? Who put it in Him?

[Robert]

He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

This is how EGW defines "an evil propensity":

Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart (mind), and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91]

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

It has been clearly shown to you before, that Christ took our sinful nature on Himself at the cross.

How did He receive a sinful at the cross? Who put it in Him?

The sanctuary service clearly shows that the sins of the sinner were placed on the lamb just prior to the sacrifice.

The lamb up to that point was without spot or blemish.