BobRyan Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 In Romans 8 the lost person "DOES not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:5-8. In Romans 6 NO sin can claim to overpower or master a saved saint. In fact 1Cor 10 says that ALL sin is subject to God's "filter" who "WILL not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able". in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Twilight II Posted September 20, 2011 Author Posted September 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Where and when was our flesh crucified? Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom 6:7 is stating that if you are dead you can no longer sin. The question is where did we die? The answer: In Christ. We died in the humanity of Christ. His death was a corporate death. You can't apply this to yourself as an individual. You are not dead to sin. If you were you wouldn't sin. Dead men can't sin. But Paul does apply it to the individual, that is the whole point Robert... Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. This is the "elephant in the room text" Robert! It plainly states that they that are Christs have applied the "objective truth" which we both agree on, to themselves "subjectively". This truth is not just "objective". It is also "subjective". As this text clearly states. :-) Quote
Twilight II Posted September 20, 2011 Author Posted September 20, 2011 In Romans 7 Paul says of the "two nature state" that this person "SERVES the Law of God with their mind". In Romans 3 Paul tells us that this is NOT true of the unsaved person's sinful nature. The two-nature problem comes about as a result of 2Cor 5 "IF anyone is in Christ they are a NEW CREATION". That is how the SECOND nature comes into existence. in Christ, Bob Very good point, I had not noticed that before. Thanks for sharing. :-) Quote
Robert Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. This is the "elephant in the room text" Robert! Rom 6:10 The death he [Christ] died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count [consider, reckon] yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus Yes, the believer has said goodbye to sin in his heart. He has counted himself dead to sin as Christ died to sin, but the reality is he is not free from sin. Yes, he grows, but he's not perfect. That's why John states that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. Why do we fail? Indwelling sin tempts us and we fail to walk in the Spirit. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 20, 2011 Author Posted September 20, 2011 Robert, are you saying we do have some subjective experience of Christs crucifying our flesh? In the here and now? Quote
Robert Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 Robert, are you saying we do have some subjective experience of Christs crucifying our flesh? In the here and now? Yes, we experience this.... Quote
Twilight II Posted September 21, 2011 Author Posted September 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Robert, are you saying we do have some subjective experience of Christs crucifying our flesh? In the here and now? Yes, we experience this.... So then, if you can receive part of that, why not all of it? Does God give "half gifts"? Quote
Robert Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 So then, if you can receive part of that, why not all of it? What you are talking about is victory over the flesh (human nature). To have victory over human nature infers you must have one. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 21, 2011 Author Posted September 21, 2011 No Robert, I am not talking about me having a victory over the flesh. I am talking about Christ having put my flesh to death on the Cross and me entering in to that divine fact experientally. Quote
Robert Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 I am talking about Christ having put my flesh to death on the Cross and me entering in to that divine fact experientally. Christ as the Son of God died the 2nd death. Hence indwelling sin died with Him. Unless you actually die sin is still alive in you. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 21, 2011 Author Posted September 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II I am talking about Christ having put my flesh to death on the Cross and me entering in to that divine fact experientally. Christ as the Son of God died the 2nd death. Hence indwelling sin died with Him. Unless you actually die sin is still alive in you. Exactly... But did I die "in myself"? No... Did I die in "Christ"? Yes... So now, if I stay "In Christ". I stay "in" that death... Quote
Robert Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 Did I die in "Christ"? Yes... So now, if I stay "In Christ". I stay "in" that death... Yes, but this is by faith. You the individual, weren't in Christ. Yes, your humanity that you received from Adam was, but not you personally. Quote
Guest Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 Could it get any more convoluted than that? Quote
Administrators Gail Posted September 21, 2011 Administrators Posted September 21, 2011 Could it get any more convoluted than that? :) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Guest Posted September 21, 2011 Posted September 21, 2011 OopS! Sorry about that Robert... How quickly we backslide.. But I was just trying to make him feel at home, just like the old days. Quote
Robert Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Could it get any more convoluted than that? Look at Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.... Again, your humanity...my humanity died with Christ....Yet you and I are living. The life we live in our fallen humanity we live by faith. Quote
Robert Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: RLH Could it get any more convoluted than that? The humanity that Christ assumed was our humanity. Since all men come from Adam we all share that one humanity - i.e., the fallen life of Adam multiplied again and again. Hence we are the multiplication of his fallen life. That life died when Christ, as the Son of Man, tasted the 2nd death. He is the last Adam. Now, as individuals, we came from Adam. As individuals we didn't die in Christ. If we did, well, we wouldn't be on CA. We would be 6' under. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 I understand your point of view Robert. You believe we were crucified in Christ "objectively" only. And not "subjectively". But the point I am trying to make is that Paul taught a "subjective" experience. When we "abide in Christ", He brings His nature into us, His presence in fact. And when He is in us, our old nature is dead, it is no longer there (as much as we have seen of the new we recieve and as much as the old we have seen is dead). But it is the presence of Christ "in me" and me "in Him" that brings that about. When I enter "into Christ", I enter into the reality of my new nature and the death of my old nature, my old man. This is the true meaning of "righteousness by faith". Quote
Robert Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 When we "abide in Christ", He brings His nature into us, His presence in fact. Quote
Twilight II Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II When we "abide in Christ", He brings His nature into us, His presence in fact. No problem.... Quote: And when He is in us, our old nature is dead, it is no longer there (as much as we have seen of the new we recieve and as much as the old we have seen is dead). No, the old is there, but as long as we walk in the Spirit He has it under control. Quote
BobRyan Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 In Romans 7 the old man of sin (the sinful nature with which we were born - causes problems for the newborn new-creation born-again saint. "Sin in me at war with the law of my mind"). In Romans 8 the old man of sin is "being" overcome "By the Spirit PUTTING TO DEATH the deeds of the flesh" on a daily basis. It was their failure to accept this basic Bible truth that results in Ellen White's condemnation of the "holy flesh" group in her day. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Twilight II Posted September 22, 2011 Author Posted September 22, 2011 In Romans 7 the old man of sin (the sinful nature with which we were born - causes problems for the newborn new-creation born-again saint. "Sin in me at war with the law of my mind"). In Romans 8 the old man of sin is "being" overcome "By the Spirit PUTTING TO DEATH the deeds of the flesh" on a daily basis. It was their failure to accept this basic Bible truth that results in Ellen White's condemnation of the "holy flesh" group in her day. in Christ, Bob I would say it like this Bob. The Objective truth is that Christ took ALL of our Old Man and crucified it on the cross. The Subjective truth is that I receive that death of the Old Man "experientally". And the receipt of that subjective truth is "progressive". We do not need to regain old ground if we remain in the New Nature. The Daily Dying is dying to those things that are brought to our attention. But they are not necessarily "old things" but rather they should be "new giants" in the land. Your thoughts? Quote
BobRyan Posted September 22, 2011 Posted September 22, 2011 Certainly Christ's model is one of complete and total victory over sin. No question. And certainly we struggle. I also agree that sanctification is the process of separating sin from the soul - by practicing what we know to be truth. But the sinful nature - though weakened every day as we walk the walk of sanctification - is with us until the 2nd coming. That does not mean we must sin even one day after becoming a Christian. When you kneel down to pray you are not sinning - when a sinner stops and repents and turns to Christ - he is not sinning. To simply "stop sinning" for a while is available to all - from day 1. It is not the sign that you are fully sanctified or that you no longer have a sinful nature. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Robert Posted September 23, 2011 Posted September 23, 2011 the sinful nature - though weakened every day as we walk the walk of sanctification - is with us until the 2nd coming. This is what the Bible teaches.... Quote
Robert Posted September 23, 2011 Posted September 23, 2011 The Subjective truth is that I receive that death of the Old Man "experientally". Christ, by assuming our humanity, had to deal with our sinful nature for over thirty years. Only when Christ as the Son of Man died did our nature come to an end. On Sunday morning Christ was raised with holy flesh. He was raised glorified. 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. We are changed, glorified, at the resurrection. Then we lose the nature. Until then it is a struggle....The struggle is to surrender the will so that God can defeat the natural tendencies of our sin nature. Quote
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