Our old man was crucified...?

[Robert]

What is strange Robert, is that you agree the the "Old Man" was crucified, and that our "old life" is dead.

Right, it was crucified, but not in you the individual. It was crucified in the humanity that Christ assumed.

Rom 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ....

[Robert]

This idea that we must be "pals" with the old man the rest of our lives is a false gospel...

Please do not tell untruths (which comes from your nature). I never said we should be "pals" with our nature.

[joeb]

I haven't read this entire thread as I don't have the time, and hope this hasn't been posted already.

In Desire of Ages we find the following:

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}

I have experienced what Ellen White describes above at times in my life, but I have also experienced turning away from Him. Turning away from God didn't start as a big decision, but as a loss of focus. I slowly, inadvertently, began to take my relationship with God less seriously and by the time I woke up to what was happening sin had lost its sinfulness to me, and the "old man" was back in control.

This is why Ellen White counsels us to never feel that we are fully secure in our salvation before we reach heaven. We do not become robots incapable of changing our minds or of making bad decisions about our walk with God. Paul says as much in I Corinthians 9:27.

Yes, I do believe the "old man" can be dead to us, but only has we remain fully committed to Christ and following His lead in every part of our lives. We can choose to bring him back at anytime though for we are still free moral agents while following Christ.

[Twilight II]

Yes, I do believe the "old man" can be dead to us, but only has we remain fully committed to Christ and following His lead in every part of our lives. We can choose to bring him back at anytime though for we are still free moral agents while following Christ.

I would say this pretty much matches my own position...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Yes, I do believe the "old man" can be dead to us, but only has we remain fully committed to Christ and following His lead in every part of our lives. ...

I would say this pretty much matches my own position...

But human nature isn't dead. Just because the Holy Spirit brings victory over certain sins doesn't mean that your nature is dead. Again, to teach such is the heresy of the holy flesh doctrine.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Yes, I do believe the "old man" can be dead to us, but only has we remain fully committed to Christ and following His lead in every part of our lives. We can choose to bring him back at anytime though for we are still free moral agents while following Christ.

I would say this pretty much matches my own position...

Mine too..

[Robert]

The only thing that changes at conversion is in the heart. Ellen White refers to this as the character. Paul calls on believers to have the mind of Christ.

The change of nature comes at the 2nd coming.

[Robert]

The only thing that changes at conversion is in the heart.

Eph 2:3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

See before conversion your mind and nature (the desires of the flesh) were in complete harmony. After conversion your way of thinking changes over time. This is God's Spirit writing in your heart/mind His law of agape. Now your mind and the flesh are in disharmony. The problem is that your mind is no match for the desires of your nature. That's what Romans 7 is all about, i.e., the converted man trying to defeat the sin nature in him. Romans 8 is about God, through the Spirit, defeating the sin nature. But this doesn't mean that your nature is dead.

Here's Ellen White:

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self (the sin nature) to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I would say this pretty much matches my own position...

But human nature isn't dead. Just because the Holy Spirit brings victory over certain sins doesn't mean that your nature is dead. Again, to teach such is the heresy of the holy flesh doctrine.

I think you should go back and examine the claims of the "Holy Flesh" movement before you start casting aspersions around Robert...

Maybe if you understood what they were promoting, then you would not be attempting to paint what is being presented here in the same light.

[Twilight II]

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self (the sin nature) to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.

I do not see anyone disagreeing with this Robert...

[joeb]

But human nature isn't dead. Just because the Holy Spirit brings victory over certain sins doesn't mean that your nature is dead. Again, to teach such is the heresy of the holy flesh doctrine.

What part of "When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience" is unclear to you? To have a life of continual obedience isn't victory over "certain sins", but victory over all known sin in our life.

I have no problem with what you quoted about sanctification either. It in no way is in conflict with what I quoted. Just as I've been married for almost 30 years to the same woman, and still learn more about her almost every day, getting to know God as well as it is my privilege to know Him takes time too.

Sanctification and our relationship with God are inextricably intertwined, not opposing ideas.

[Twilight II]

Indeed, sanctification is often looked at as a "reduction" in sin.

When in fact it is a growth in "seperation" to God and a growth in the receipt of the new nature.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self (the sin nature) to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.

I do not see anyone disagreeing with this Robert...

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self (the sin nature) to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained."

[Robert]

To have a life of continual obedience isn't victory over "certain sins", but victory over all known sin in our life.

Then you are living Christ's life? Maybe you have a very limited view of what constitutes sin?

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

Perhaps this is why Ellen White states, "There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . " [LHU 325]

[Robert]

and a growth in the receipt of the new nature.

The new nature belongs to God, not you. All you have is the old nature. When God abides in you He suppresses the old nature as you walk in the Spirit. As you do His divine nature is seen and not your old nature. That's how it works.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

and a growth in the receipt of the new nature.

The new nature belongs to God, not you. All you have is the old nature. When God abides in you He suppresses the old nature as you walk in the Spirit. As you do His divine nature is seen and not your old nature. That's how it works.

God gives us His new nature Robert, He writes His laws on "our" hearts and minds.

He crucifies the old nature, He doesn't suppress it.

That idea is not expressed at all in the scripture.

It is a subtle difference, yet an important one.

[joeb]

Then you are living Christ's life? Maybe you have a very limited view of what constitutes sin?

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

Perhaps this is why Ellen White states, "There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . " [LHU 325]

Robert,

I disagree with nothing you said, other than your statement as to my understanding of sin, but you don't seem to understand the following: All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses.

Why is it that you want to play Ellen White against herself? All the quotes here are in agreement. Yes, self will always seek to reassert itself. That is the constant struggle we have, but the promises I've quoted say that we do not have to allow it to do that, that we can have the victory over self on a constant basis.

In my original post on this thread I said we could have the victory over all known sin. You keep misreading that statement. There most likely are things in me that I do not now know to be sin, but they are not held against me because God has not revealed those things to me. God is not unjust, and it would be unjust to hold things against us that we do not understand at the time. But, as we get to know Him better and surrender each sin to Him as it is revealed to us we can have victory over them. Thus our lives can be one of constant victory, not continual defeat.

The Christian life is not to be mournful over unknown sin, but joyful in the knowledge of what God has done, is doing, and will continue to do, for us. We are to be confident in the power of God, not wail about what we might find out about ourselves in the future. And, if we are doing that we know where the power to overcome sin comes from. We will know we aren't capable of ourselves, but that it is God that worketh within us both to will and to do.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

and a growth in the receipt of the new nature.

The new nature belongs to God, not you. All you have is the old nature. When God abides in you He suppresses the old nature as you walk in the Spirit. As you do His divine nature is seen and not your old nature. That's how it works.

Here's a good quote for you that completes the picture, Robert.

"Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God’s children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells “all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” ( Colossians 2:9 ); and the life of Jesus is made manifest “in our mortal flesh” ( 2 Corinthians 4:11 ). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for “the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul.” Psalm 19:7 , margin. Through love “the righteousness of the law” will be “fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4." Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, p 77 para 4.

Notice the if. If we are the children of God. It does not say, if we are the professed children of God. We cannot be just the professed children of God, we must be, in reality, the children of God for the promise to be available to us.

How many professed Christians are, in reality, the children of God? How many put God first, last, and always in everything in their life and take His word as the authority in their life? How many surrender every sin? Maybe that is why you believe sin cannot be overcome. Maybe you believe the evidence of outward appearances rather than the clear promises of God.

[Guest]

Then you are living Christ's life?

Of course not Robert! Not only is that a tired old line, but it's bogus also. It's based on a false premise. For one thing Jesus didn't have any unknown sins like we do. And secondly, Jesus never committed a single sin. Not even as a child. No human can say that, for ALL have sinned and come short.

So even if I never sin again as long as I live, I'm still a sinner in need of a saviour, because I have sinned. Not so with Jesus. So at the end, no man will be able to say they lived Christ's life.

So stop asking that ridiculous, bogus, misleading question. For it doesn't apply to any human being on this earth. You use it as an excuse to keep sinning, but the fact of the matter is, there is no excuse. God's grace is far more powerful than any sin. To say otherwise is blasphemy.

Also grace is NOT just forgiveness. It is also the POWER to do right. How disappointing it must be for God to see people like you who are constantly selling Him short. Basically what you're all about is telling people that God doesn't have the power to help you do what He has told you to do.

[Robert]

He crucifies the old nature, He doesn't suppress it.

This is utterly false.

[Guest]

He crucifies the old nature, He doesn't suppress it.

He's right you know ...Robert.

[Robert]

"Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him.

If you are stating we are as perfect as God then Ellen White disagrees:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900).

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

He crucifies the old nature, He doesn't suppress it.

He's right you know ...Robert.

No, the sin nature is eradicated at the 2nd coming, not before.

[Robert]

You use it as an excuse to keep sinning, but the fact of the matter is, there is no excuse.

Let's stop trying to read others motives. I'm sure John the moderator will agree. Let's keep this civil.

[Guest]

Righto!