ClubV12 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 What IS the church seems to be a raging debate. I submit this letter as one, of many instances, where Sister White is clear who, what, comprise the "church". "Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." Some take this quote and define what they see as the "church". Others wonder wha the "church" means. Some say Sister White is not referring to the "organized church" in this quote. Lets take a closer look. This is a letter she wrote to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskel in 1886. How do you think these men she is writing to would have defined the "church" in which they were leaders at the time? Here are more excerpts from this letter... "No censure can be attached to our leading men. I believe, brethren, you are one with me in heart, in sentiment, in regard to our great need, and in the earnest desire and earnest efforts to meet the mind of the Spirit of God in these things." "I want to speak to the ears of our people in America in every church." WHAT "church" is she referring to here? Every single church of all denominations in America? An off shoot group here and there? OR, the organized Seventh-day Adventist church these men she is writing to are a part of? Who do you think "our people", she refers to is? The letter continues.... "The moral standard of character is God’s law. Do we meet its requirements? Are the Lord’s people bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work for this time? Let us arouse. "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" [Col. 3:1]. It is CLEAR she is referring to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church in this letter. The same church that "may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." To this "church" what does she say to do? "...bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work." Letter 55, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, December 8, 1886.). Manuscript Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999, 1982-1983]. 1993; 2002 (328). When you leave the church, for whatever reason, you loose your anchor, you will ultimately loose your way. You may be sincere, but you will certainly be "sincerely mistaken". Do you think it impossible to live up to the blue print of Sister Whites counsel while attending an organized Seventh-day Adventist church? Then you doubt the power of God! There are thousands within the church who DO follow the blue print, who have NOT bowed thier knee to Baal. They have the courage to perservere no matter WHERE they find themselves. The slaves in Ceasers court, they followed the Lord, under extremely trying conditions. The Waldneses, they followed the Lord. Daniel, in the Kings court, he followed the Lord. Is it to hard a thing to follow the Lord in an Adventist church? We will have no excuse for our failure, no matter WHERE we find ourselves. Quote
Moderators Kevin H Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Posted October 17, 2011 We have a mixture of God's leading and control, yet our freedom of choice. We find in the Bible God takes hundreds of years of rebellion and stubbornness before giving up on a people (and even then he does not give up on the people or the group but the method that he was originally going to use them and uses them in an alternative method. I find too many in the church who want's God to change and not have his long patience any more and want's God to give up on us just because we do not fit their understanding of the truth. Often I find it people who I understand to have approximately half the truth (with a very jagged edge) that they use against the rest of the truth. People who have mixed Adventism with Fundamentalism and either have tripped up on traditions that have been built around the truth like ripples in a pond around a stone of truth, or traditions based on what the Reformers thought. I worry about things in our church as well. Fear of not keeping up with Bible study and wanting to be bogged down in either the traditions of the 1800s or the 1500s instead of moving down the trail of truth. Too many in our church who want to prove to the world that we are good Baptists. Too much getting enmeshed with politics and the growing world state and how we are becoming too dependent on the government's tax money, making the two horned beast our bedmate how are we going to respond when the 2 horned beast causes us to form an image to the beast? I'm concerned about how our schools are becoming too expensive and unless the beast or the false prophets pay our way our students graduate in incredible debt. I'm concerned on how even when our students attend our conservative schools, such as the Seminary, how too many in the ministry leave what they had in Bible classes there behind and only are overly busy running the church raising money for the church and going back to the older traditions and giving the same information as back years ago. I'm concerned over how conference leaders have become uncomfortable with educated ministers and prefer to hire lay members who are good with sharing what they learned but not learning new things. (it is sad that in some of our subgroups Gerhard Hassel is a liberal). I'm concerned about how we want to trust in the institution, or in some sub group of the institution and want everyone to sing on the same page and not want to hear new arguments and make up our minds on the weight of the evidence. (Too much of the talk about the church falling comes from those who want to shut up any other idea except for their ideas). I'm concerned over how we have taken a part of the 5th head as the whole beast which leaves us open to prejudice and contempt instead of being critical and also keeps our guard down for when Satan brings about the deceptions from another direction. I'm concerned that over how instead of loving the world as Jesus has loved it, we too often think we are for ourselves by others being less. But despite these concerns we are still moving. Quote
12tribes Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 The movement that God started in 1844 will go through while not all the people will. The movement that came out of Egypt went through while not all the people did. 1 Corinthians 10:11 (11) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (types): and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. The movement that came out of Egypt was a type of the church in the last days, Acts even calls it the 'church in the wilderness' Acts 7:38 (38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
joeb Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 What IS the church seems to be a raging debate. I submit this letter as one, of many instances, where Sister White is clear who, what, comprise the "church". "Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." Some take this quote and define what they see as the "church". Others wonder wha the "church" means. Some say Sister White is not referring to the "organized church" in this quote. Lets take a closer look. This is a letter she wrote to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskel in 1886. How do you think these men she is writing to would have defined the "church" in which they were leaders at the time? Here are more excerpts from this letter... "No censure can be attached to our leading men. I believe, brethren, you are one with me in heart, in sentiment, in regard to our great need, and in the earnest desire and earnest efforts to meet the mind of the Spirit of God in these things." "I want to speak to the ears of our people in America in every church." WHAT "church" is she referring to here? Every single church of all denominations in America? An off shoot group here and there? OR, the organized Seventh-day Adventist church these men she is writing to are a part of? Who do you think "our people", she refers to is? The letter continues.... "The moral standard of character is God’s law. Do we meet its requirements? Are the Lord’s people bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work for this time? Let us arouse. "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" [Col. 3:1]. It is CLEAR she is referring to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church in this letter. The same church that "may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." To this "church" what does she say to do? "...bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work." Letter 55, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, December 8, 1886.). Manuscript Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999, 1982-1983]. 1993; 2002 (328). When you leave the church, for whatever reason, you loose your anchor, you will ultimately loose your way. You may be sincere, but you will certainly be "sincerely mistaken". Do you think it impossible to live up to the blue print of Sister Whites counsel while attending an organized Seventh-day Adventist church? Then you doubt the power of God! There are thousands within the church who DO follow the blue print, who have NOT bowed thier knee to Baal. They have the courage to perservere no matter WHERE they find themselves. The slaves in Ceasers court, they followed the Lord, under extremely trying conditions. The Waldneses, they followed the Lord. Daniel, in the Kings court, he followed the Lord. Is it to hard a thing to follow the Lord in an Adventist church? We will have no excuse for our failure, no matter WHERE we find ourselves. I'm not into prognosticating, but I'll say this, I think anything is possible. The promises given to the ancient nation of Isreal were eternal promises, but they were also conditional. The promises were conditional upon their obedience to God. Thus, though the promises were true they were not fulfilled in them. The same can be true for us. The Isrealites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years before they reached the earthly Canaan because of their unbelief. We've been wandering in the wilderness for 160 years without reaching the heavenly Canaan because of our unbelief. We often point to the COI and talk about their unbelief, but ours has kept us in the wilderness for 4 times longer than theirs did. It seems to me our unbelief is much greater than the COI's was. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Lysimachus Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 I would concur with joeb concerning the "conditional element". God's conditions with Israel are the same for any Church, no matter how high or sacred their calling. I think the following two passages make it quite clear that the conditional element given to Israel is also given to the SDA Church: Quote: "The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of life, He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the word of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach."--14MR 102 (1903). {LDE 59.2} Quote: "In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. IF her spiritual experience does not correspond to the advantages that Christ, at infinite cost, has bestowed on her, if the blessings conferred have not qualified her to do the work entrusted to her, on her will be pronounced the sentence: "Found wanting." By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged. {8T 247.2} What endangers us is when we willfully cherish the attitude of the Pharisees--- "God promised us that no matter what, we will always be His people in Jeremiah 31.... therefore, it's impossible that we can ever fall"--with this attitude, it becomes impossible for us to bring about reform. It's the "sacred cow" mentality. When we consider any organized system like a "sacred cow", as if there is some holiness to the organized structure itself, we commit the same fallacy of the Israelite leadership. However, if we sigh and cry for the abominations done within, we do our Church a much needed justice and service. Quote: "The leaven of godliness has not entirely lost its power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But more especially will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because its members are doing after the manner of the world."--5T 209, 210 (1882). {LDE 83.1} It's refreshing to see that Ted Wilson is doing something. We can only pray that it remains this way, and will continue to grow and not stop and be stagnant. He is in my prayers, and I pray that his endeavors toward revival and reformation will translate into a success where people become aroused to their sense of duty, responsibility, and the absolute need to come into unity, to speak the same thing, to be of the same mind, the same judgment, and march forward shoulder to shoulder! Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Excellent points Joeb and Lysimachus. Praise the Lord! "The Jewish people cherished the idea that they were the favorites of Heaven, and that they were always to be exalted as the church of God. They were the children of Abraham, they declared, and so firm did the foundation of their prosperity seem to them that they defied earth and Heaven to dispossess them of their rights. But by lives of infaithfulness, they were preparing for the condemnation of Heaven, and for separation from God." C.O.L.294. Yet there were promises made to them in the book of Jeremiah, just to mention those, to the effect that they would always be the church of God: "Thus saith the Lord, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who divideth the sea when its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: If those ordinances depart from Me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever." "Thus saith the Lord, If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord." Jeremiah 31:35-37. But these promises were conditional as the following testimony clearly shows: "Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, (SDAs) will they not in like manner be rejected?" C.O.L.304. *parenthesis supplied The call of God is conditional. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 "The leaven of godliness has not entirely lost its power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But more especially will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because its members are doing after the manner of the world."--5T 209, 210 (1882). {LDE 83.1} Thanks for sharing this quote Lysi. It goes in perfect harmony with the following: "Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." In the days of Christ, how did Satan set up his power as supreme? "The men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." T.M.361. The leaders of the Jewish Church were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. It appeared that no one would escape. The church appeared to fall but it DID NOT fall. There were the "faithful few," the disciples of Christ who resisted those who would lord it over them. This group became known as the Early Church. Mrs. White, in The Desire of Ages, p.719, identifies them as the "little church" then. This is the church that appeared to fall but did not fall. It is the same today. We are repeating history. "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390. "The experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time." G.C.343. How is Satan setting up his power as supreme today? "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result." T.M.363. Like the men who composed the Sanhedrin in the days of Christ, the official leaders of the church today are "determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin." T.M.360. And this is how the church will appear to fall. The "little church" will appear to fall, the church composed of those who resist this lording it over God's heritage. They will be in the minority. They will appear to fall but they will not fall. One more time the Nicolaitans will be resisted by Antipas within our own ranks first and then during the loud cry to the world. There will be another confrontation between these two groups. The "little church" (Antipas) will again oppose the apostate leaders of Babylon the Great who will attempt to lord it over them. sky Nicolaitans Nico means to rule, to dominate over the laitans, that is, over the laity. Antipas represent those who oppose "pas" meaning the pa pa cy, who oppose those who would lord it over them. They are the "little church" that will appear to fall but will not fall. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
joeb Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 It's refreshing to see that Ted Wilson is doing something. We can only pray that it remains this way, and will continue to grow and not stop and be stagnant. He is in my prayers, and I pray that his endeavors toward revival and reformation will translate into a success where people become aroused to their sense of duty, responsibility, and the absolute need to come into unity, to speak the same thing, to be of the same mind, the same judgment, and march forward shoulder to shoulder! I'll just comment on this as we are in complete agreement on the rest of what you said. That said, I'm not disagreeing with your statement here. I just have something to add to it. The only way we can come into unity, and be of the same mind and the same judgment, is for all of us to fully surrender our hearts to Christ. Only as we fully surrender our hearts to the central authority of the church, Christ, can we be in harmony. It is that lack of surrender that keeps us pointing in different directions. Only as we take Paul's advice to "let this mind be you which was in Christ Jesus" can we be of one mind. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
ClubV12 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 Some say the church has already fallen, that it is Babylon, HAS BEEN for over a 100 years. Many have left based on this idea. Some have formed off shoot movements. The Creationist Seventh Day Adventist church is absolutely sure "they have the truth". The Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement is also convinced. The list of off shoots, fanatics and extremists is long, it's been growing longer since 1844. Which of these groups shall we believe? How have these groups done in broadcasting the third angels message to the world? For the most part they are NOT interested in reaching the "world", their message is directed at other Seventh-day Adventists within the organized church. Is this the message the church was given? To reach other Adventists and ignore the Gentiles? But wait, they say, when Stephen was stoned THEN the message was supposed to go to the Gentiles! No, the Jews were ALWAYS commissioned to take their message to the world, they just got hung up on themselves. I will not run ahead of the Lord, I will stay the course. Our current duty is clear: bring your property, your time, your talents, and all your influence into the work of the church today. The Lord will reveal when and what course of action to take when the time comes, it will be made plain. That time is not yet come. This isn't a guessing game where anything can happen, wait and watch and prepare for the coming storm. Right where your at, work right where your at, study and follow the blue print. QUIT looking at other people, that will surely discourage you and rob you of your faith! QUIT looking to yourself, keep looking to Jesus. If you have removed yourself from the church, for whatever reason, please, come home. Lets press together, set aside your own ideas of who is worthy to press together with. The Lord came to save sinners, within and without His church. Will you help? Will you look to your needs or the needs of the church? Working to save others, you will find you have saved yourself. Quote
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 The only way we can come into unity, and be of the same mind and the same judgment, is for all of us to fully surrender our hearts to Christ. Only as we fully surrender our hearts to the central authority of the church, Christ, can we be in harmony. It is that lack of surrender that keeps us pointing in different directions. Only as we take Paul's advice to "let this mind be you which was in Christ Jesus" can we be of one mind. Joeb _______________ And the only way to become one with Christ, joined to the Head, is by coming to God every day just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of Him who shed His blood for us upon Calvary's cross. This is how we draw nigh to Him and He draws nigh to us. Then we will be fortified. The angels of God will be around us like a wall of fire as we shall be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness and the glory of God will be our rearward. Christ'righteousness accomplishes everything as it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. This is God's true church on earth, His fortress, His city of refuge which He holds in a revolted world and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. (D.A.324,414) sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 "The light of the glory of God must fall upon us. We need the holy unction from on high. However intelligent, however learned a man may be, he is not qualified to teach unless he has a firm hold on the God of Israel. He who is connected with Heaven will do the works of Christ. By faith in God he will have power to move upon humanity. He will seek for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If divine power does not combine with human effort, I would not give a straw for all that the greatest man could do. The Holy Spirit is wanting in our work." 1 S.M.411. Notice how it says that he who is connected with Heaven will do the works of Christ. He will seek for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, that is, for the lost sheep of the house Modern Israel. This is the work of such a man before the message goes forth with mighty power in a loud cry to the world. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 For those who are considering their options in relation to the church, may I recommend you read "Sketches of the Life of Paul". He was an extraordinary example of a self supporting worker. At once within the church, supporting it in every way and yet independant. Sky I do believe the above quote to seek the lost sheep of the house is Israel is miss leading when applied to working only for Seventh-day Adventists. We have a message for the world, as the Jews did. NOW is the time to deliver that message while waiting for the loud cry. This working for the lost sheep of Israel, with that being the primary focus, the only focus, is a hall mark of many who have left the organized church. Quote
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Yes Paul after his conversion was supporting the "little church" composed of the "faithful few" that were persecuted by the leaders of the official Jewish church. Get it? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 Paul took the message to the WORLD, get it? Quote
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Jesus first sent His disciples with a message not to the Gentiles but the lost sheep of Israel. He first sent the 12 and the 70 to the Jewish nation before the crucifixion. "Repent and believe the Gospel for the time is fulfilled." Mark 1:15. After the crucifixion the disciples were filled with the fullness of the Spirit and again they were sent, not to the Gentiles, but to the Jewish people. When that second call was rejected and they stoned Stephen, then the call was extended to the world, not before. Before the loud cry to the world God sent the latter rain message to His people in 1888 through His chosen messengers. That message was sent to His professed people first before it could go with mighty power to the world. The message was rejected and since then we have been wandering in this wilderness of sin and sorrow. Today this last message of mercy (1888 message) must again for the last time first go to the lost sheep of modern Israel before it swells into the loud cry to the world. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
joeb Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 And the only way to become one with Christ, joined to the Head, is by coming to God every day just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of Him who shed His blood for us upon Calvary's cross. This is how we draw nigh to Him and He draws nigh to us. Then we will be fortified. The angels of God will be around us like a wall of fire as we shall be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness and the glory of God will be our rearward. Christ'righteousness accomplishes everything as it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. This is God's true church on earth, His fortress, His city of refuge which He holds in a revolted world and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. (D.A.324,414) sky I have no disagreement with this. It's so obvious I didn't think it needed to be said, for there is no other way to surrender all of our heart. “Abide in Me, and I in you.” Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service. The channel of communication must be open continually between man and his God. As the vine branch constantly draws the sap from the living vine, so are we to cling to Jesus, and receive from Him by faith the strength and perfection of His own character. {DA 676.2} Our problem is, and always has been, the part of us we reserve. That was the problem with the COI, the Jews of Christ's day, and it is ours. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Okay, glad we can see eye to eye on this except to say that I do not believe it is that obvious to the majority of us. When was the last time you heard a lecture on the necessity of appropriating to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour in order to bring Christ's righteousness into the life? Whenever I have spoken in church in the last few years and spoke on the merits of Christ the question people keep asking is "What do you mean by the merits of Christ?" It is clear that our people are not intelligent in regard to the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare. Mrs. White stated that there is not one in one hundred who understands it for himself. (1 S.M.360) "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347. She explains elsewhere that we appropriate them by claiming them and that it is our privilege to do so. This is the science of salvation, the science of sciences. "We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith & Works, p.86. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 "He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own." (D.A.324,414) Depending on how you interpret that quote, you could justify leaving the church and setting up your own church in it's place. Ignoring the counsel of the brethren and declaring the organized church to be in apostasy. There are plenty of hooks upon which to hang your doubts or the beliefs you cherish. We see many examples of that here on the forum. Those who loudly proclaim they are led of the Holy Spirit and have no need of any other counsel of man. Some have grown bitter because the church slighted them in some way, or failed to recognize how "important" their ideas were to "save the church". The path of truth does indeed lay close to the path of error... "When was the last time you heard a lecture on the necessity of appropriating to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour in order to bring Christ's righteousness into the life?" Last Sabbath, from the pulpit, by our Pastor. Quote
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 This is the thing. I do not interpret it. I let the testimonies interpret it for me. "The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes God's fortress which He holds in a revolted world and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own." D.A.324. He intends that no authority shall be known in the soul that is yielded to Him but His own. This statement is so clear that only those who choose to close their eyes will be unable to appreciate it. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 "When was the last time you heard a lecture on the necessity of appropriating to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour in order to bring Christ's righteousness into the life?" Last Sabbath, from the pulpit, by our Pastor. But did he use the word "merits" repeatedly? Apparently that's what is important. God forbid people use other terminology to express an abstract concept. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 It is not an abstract concept. The sacrifice of Christ was infinite. Who can measure it? The Father bowed His head in acceptance of it. This sacrifice is full of divine merits and it is those merits that we must claim in order to be received and accepted of the Father. "He receives us to Himself through the merits of His son." A.A.333. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 This is the thing. I do not interpret it. I let the testimonies interpret it for me. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
skyblue888 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 "The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42. This is what each and everyone of us are to do, compare Scripture with Scripture or statement with statement. If we follow this counsel there will be no private interpretations but only the light that comes from the throne of God. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 It is not an abstract concept. The sacrifice of Christ was infinite. Who can measure it? The Father bowed His head in acceptance of it. This sacrifice is full of divine merits and it is those merits that we must claim in order to be received and accepted of the Father. "He receives us to Himself through the merits of His son." A.A.333. sky Infinity is an abstract concept. If you can show me some concrete merits, I'll be surprised. They're abstract because merits have no material existence. That's why the terminology that people use to describe what you are describing is not as important as the concepts themselves; if someone describes salvation as "living in the spirit of Christ" or "letting God fill my soul" it does not really differ fundamentally from what you are saying; you could express that experience with your vocabulary of "merit". Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.