Will the SDA church "Fall"?

[SivartM]

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

This is what each and everyone of us are to do, compare Scripture with Scripture or statement with statement. If we follow this counsel there will be no private interpretations but only the light that comes from the throne of God.

sky

The problem is that there are many passages of Scripture, not all of which are clear, and of which there are many possible ways to turn the whole into a relatively consistent narrative. If you don't believe in letting the authority of tradition interpret the Bible, which as a Protestant I believe you would agree with, then you are automatically creating your own interpretation of the Bible. Unless you, and you alone, possess the true interpretation.

[ClubV12]

Sivart, you make some excellent points. Last Sabbath was not just another great sermon, it was very spiritual. At the end an alter call was made and many came forward. The message of righteouness by faith and how "works" are the fruit of that has been a continuing theme at my church for sometime. For which I am SO thankful and encouraged that the church has not fallen. Or, if it has, I missed it, I'm looking to Jesus, not at people.

[skyblue888]

The burden of the Lord's message in 1888, the focus, was the necessity of appropriating to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, that if we refused to claim them, we could not be saved. If God saw fit to send such a message, we need to pay attention to it.

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

This statement is found under the subtitle REJECTING THE LIGHT where Mrs. White is discussing the 1888 message.

This statement is that message in a nutshell, for as we come before God, daily, just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, claiming the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, the Father receives us and loves us as He loves Jesus and we may go on from grace to grace and from strength to strength, from victory to victory.

"When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress." E.G. White, Faith & Works, 94.

sky

[ClubV12]

Yup, righteouness by faith, no doubt about it!

It is easy to understand, and yet, easy to stumble over. Once you accept it and have even a basic understanding of it, you see it everywhere! It's all through the bible as well as being the core message Sister White presents over and over in all her writings.

[Lysimachus]

I will add further what it is going to take for us to come into unity:

Quote:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)

Notice:

1. Speak the same thing

2. No divisions

3. Perfectly joined together

4. Same mind

5. Same judgment

Wow!

It's going to take a lot more work to get out of here than most Adventists have supposed! This is TOUGH.

Quote:

“The words are ringing in my ears: ‘Draw together, draw together.’ The solemn, sacred truth for this time is to unify the people of God.’ The desire for pre-eminence must die. One subject of emulation must swallow up all others--who will most nearly resemble Christ in character? who will most entirely hide self in Jesus?” 6T p. 42

Notice the powerful urgent message given regarding the vast importance of pressing together and uniting with our brothers and sisters in the faith:

Quote:

“Suppose we try daily to have our hearts united in the bonds of Christian love. "I have somewhat against thee," says the True Witness, "because thou hast left thy first love" (Revelation 2:4). And He says, "Except thou repent," "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place" (Revelation 2:5). Why?--Because in our separation from one another we are separated from Christ. We want to press together. Oh, how many times, when I have seemed to be in the presence of God and holy angels, I have heard the angel voice saying, "Press together, press together, press together. Do not let Satan cast his hellish shadow between brethren. Press together; in unity there is strength." 2SM 374.2

Notice how she emphasizes the importance of "pressing together" a total of 5 times.

The question is, who do you press together with? With those who do not feel the same conviction? Why, we will only push them away. Imagine 2 men standing side by side. One man has the conviction to press together with his brother, so he leans his shoulder up against the shoulder of his brother and begins pressing. But the brother in whom he is pressing up against does not feel the same conviction, so therefore, that brother is not pressing back. So he is getting pushed away and eventually, nothing gets accomplished. So who do we push together with? With those whom we discover also feel the same need of pressing together with us. So now imagine 2 brothers who feel the same conviction to press together! Both press their shoulders up against each other, and now what? They are compact tight and close, and now the Devil cannot get between them!

P.S. Thanks to my father for some of his wonderful and beautiful sermons on this subject. =]

Quote:

"Conversation has been protracted for hours between the parties concerned, and not only has their time been wasted, but the servants of God are held to listen to them, when the hearts of both parties are unsubdued by grace. If pride and selfishness were laid aside, five minutes would remove most difficulties. Angels have been grieved and God displeased by the hours which have been spent in justifying self. I saw that God will not bow down and listen to long justifications, and He does not want His servants to do so, and thus precious time be wasted that should be spent in showing transgressors the error of their ways and pulling souls out of the fire. {EW 119.1}

Why do so many Adventists keep defending themselves? Quit defending yourselves! Let's quit defending ourselves! Let the hot iron do what it will, and refine you as gold tried in the fire!

The Solemn and Sacred truth for THIS time is to UNIFY the PEOPLE OF GOD!

How do we come into unity with God's people? By separating from ALL those who refuse to feel this same conviction:

Quote:

“Come out from among them, and be separate. Draw near to God, and come into closer union with His people. Let your interest and your affections center in Christ and His followers. Love those best who love Christ most. Sever the links which have bound you to those who love not God and the truth. What communion hath light with darkness? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" 2T 47

Sharp, hot truths, but oh we must face them!

May we press together, press together, PRESS TOGETHER!

Who is interested? :)

[skyblue888]

You say that but i have yet to find a post in which you present this message in harmony with these testimonies. I cannot recall one since you've been on this forum. You have said many times that righteousness by faith is important and you have even stated that it was being presented in your church at the present time but is it presented in this light? Are the merits of Christ and the necessity of appropriating them the focus of your message? Mrs. White saw it as being the focus.

She spoke of "the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into the life." F.W.65, bottom of page.

Is this the message that is being presented in your church and are the implications of that message, if accepted, explained as far as what it means in regard to organization after Gospel Order as opposed to the common order of things?

sky

[ClubV12]

You have ALWAYS questioned ANYONE who suggests they accept and understand the message of righteousness by faith.

Why is it you think you are the only one who can possibly understand it?

SivartM was SO correct in his analysis of your self righteous view on this topic.

[ClubV12]

Sky says,

"...if accepted, explained as far as what it means in regard to organization after Gospel Order as opposed to the common order of things?"

I think I'm starting to see the connection with YOUR righteousness by faith message, which you present as "simple" and then declare NO ONE can possibly understand it.

The connection is this:

IF we actually understood it in the way you present it, using the exact words you use to descibe it, THEN, their would be a "revolution" within the church. The GC, the Divisions, the Conferences, the Pastors would be "swept away" and a new "Gospel Order" would insue. Replacing what you call the "common order of things".

I get it,,, if people REMAIN in the organized church, that alone is your "proof" that they cannot possibly understand righteouness by faith. Wow, THIS is your core belief, the primary tool for getting people to abandon the organized church.

Let me guess, you are the leader of, certainly a member of, some group that maintains they are the only possible way to salvation because only you, or they, understand this message? That you, or your group, are the ONLY ONES who are capable of leading Adventists into this light of righteousness by faith?

Is that why you left the church? They rejected your message (in your mind), you felt slighted that they did not understand and accept your importance within the church?

[skyblue888]

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that they were the favorites of Heaven, and that they were always to be exalted as the church of God. They were the children of Abraham, they declared, and so firm did the foundation of their prosperity seem to them that they defied earth and Heaven to dispossess them of their rights. But by lives of infaithfulness, they were preparing for the condemnation of Heaven, and for separation from God." C.O.L.294.

Yet there were promises made to them in the book of Jeremiah, just to mention those, to the effect that they would always be the church of God:

"Thus saith the Lord, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who divideth the sea when its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: If those ordinances depart from Me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever."

"Thus saith the Lord, If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord." Jeremiah 31:35-37.

But these promises were conditional as the following testimony clearly shows:

"Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, (SDAs) will they not in like manner be rejected?" C.O.L.304. *parenthesis supplied

The call of God is conditional.

sky

[ClubV12]

Consider the warning:

"What a lesson have we here for parents and guardians of youth, and for those who minister in the service of God. When existing evils are not met and checked, because men have too little courage to reprove wrong, or because they have too little interest or are too indolent to tax their own powers in putting forth earnest efforts to purify the family or the church of God, they are accountable for the evil which may result in consequence of neglect to do their duty. We are just as accountable for evils that we might have checked in others, by reproof, by warning, by exercise of parental or pastoral authority, as if we were guilty of the acts ourselves."

Gospel Workers. 83

NOT being a Seventh-day Adventist is fine. Being an IMPOSTER of anyone is NOT!

[SivartM]

NOT being a Seventh-day Adventist is fine. Being an IMPOSTER is NOT!

Welcome to the internet. People say they're lots of things. Sky is claiming to be an Adventist, and that's not a crime unless he claims to speak for the organization when he does not actually represent it, which (quite obviously) he is not doing. If he leaves this website, do you think he won't go to another? Of course he will, and has, and will probably do for the rest of his life, because what everyone really wants on the internet is a place to say what they want to say.

Feel free to debate Sky all you like, but don't actually expect him to conform to any of your wishes because that isn't more likely to happen than his hope that you will conform to his wishes.

[joeb]

Consider the warning:

"What a lesson have we here for parents and guardians of youth, and for those who minister in the service of God. When existing evils are not met and checked, because men have too little courage to reprove wrong, or because they have too little interest or are too indolent to tax their own powers in putting forth earnest efforts to purify the family or the church of God, they are accountable for the evil which may result in consequence of neglect to do their duty. We are just as accountable for evils that we might have checked in others, by reproof, by warning, by exercise of parental or pastoral authority, as if we were guilty of the acts ourselves."

Gospel Workers. 83

NOT being a Seventh-day Adventist is fine. Being an IMPOSTER is NOT!

ClubV12,

You do recognize don't you that the quote you gave here can be used by sky to back what he's been saying? It's basically what he's been saying, although he couches every thing he says in terms of the 1888 message. It could be said that he is following that advice as he understands it.

I don't have a bone to pick with you or sky, and I haven't read all of sky's posts, or for that matter all of your posts, on this thread or the other related one. I'm just pointing out something I think you missed in your understanding of what you posted here, and what sky has said.

[ClubV12]

Sky speaks for SOME organization, I'd like know which one that is.

Simple question...

joeb, such is the nature of error when it lays close to the path of truth. If your considering leaving the Adventist church and joining an off shoot movement, you will have to choose.

Sky believes the Adventist went into apostasy in 1888 and is no longer favored of God as a result. That the church IS now "Babylon". Thats why 1888 is a constant referrence point.

[John317]

The movement that God started in 1844 will go through while not all the people will. The movement that came out of Egypt went through while not all the people did.

This is exactly right. So let's stay with the movement. That movement is called the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

[ClubV12]

If I have not spoken the truth on some point, and you wish to deny something, if I cannot provide substantial evidence concerning same, I shall promptly promptly apologize.

[joeb]

Sky speaks for SOME organization, I'd like know which one that is.

Simple question...

joeb, such is the nature of error when it lays close to the path of truth. If your considering leaving the Adventist church and joining an off shoot movement, you will have to choose.

Sky believes the Adventist went into apostasy in 1888 and is no longer favored of God as a result. That the church IS now "Babylon". Thats why 1888 is a constant referrence point.

You're jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. Where have I said anything about leaving the SDA church? At the same time where has the SDA church fully adopted the 1888 message? If it hasn't then it seems to me it is in apostacy of some sort because it hasn't followed God where He was leading....

[ClubV12]

Just speaking in general terms joeb, not specifically to you. IF someone IS considering leaving the church, this is the typical delima they will face.

Sister White quotes which can be read and interpreted in many different ways. Same rules apply to the bible.

There is much truth in what Sky says, this is also much error. About righteouness by faith, about the rejection of the message in 1888, 1901, 1903. This time frame was certainly a turbulent one in our history.

While there are PEOPLE within the church that are in apostasy, to say the church itself is in apostasy is at best inflamatory and will certainly cause many to stumble. This is the fundamental reason behind off shoots to begin with.

The issue is serious enough where I believe we have a responsibility to "meet it", as Sister White said concerning the Alpha Apostasy inspired by Dr. Kellogg.

[John317]

... The promises given to the ancient nation of Isreal were eternal promises, but they were also conditional. The promises were conditional upon their obedience to God. Thus, though the promises were true they were not fulfilled in them.

The same can be true for us. The Isrealites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years before they reached the earthly Canaan because of their unbelief. We've been wandering in the wilderness for 160 years without reaching the heavenly Canaan because of our unbelief. We often point to the COI and talk about their unbelief, but ours has kept us in the wilderness for 4 times longer than theirs did. It seems to me our unbelief is much greater than the COI's was.

All true. I don't think there's any doubt that the movement and the message that emerged out of 1844-1863 will go through to the end, but the only question is, who will be in it? Many will drop out and others will turn against their former faith. Some will even persecute their former brethren. Many will leave and join the fallen churches. That's why it's so important to stay close to Christ and always do what we know to be right.

[ClubV12]

Parade, I started this thread. The topic is:

"Will the SDA church fall?"

Do you have an opinion on the TOPIC you would like to express?

[John317]

The Church is defined from Scripture.

How does it define it? What is the Church?

[John317]

I'm going to go through the whole discussion and edit and delete stuff so that we can get it back on topic and away from the personal things.

[John317]

[John317]

....I worry about things in our church as well. Fear of not keeping up with Bible study and wanting to be bogged down in either the traditions of the 1800s or the 1500s instead of moving down the trail of truth. ...

I think it's possible to be aware of those traditions and to know our spiritual roots and at the same time to reject the ones that aren't built solidly on Scripture or that don't have the clear support of the Spirit of prophecy.

For instance, Martin Luther taught righteousness by faith, but he didn't teach it the same way that Jones and WAggoner did in 1888. We need to be aware of Martin Luther's teaching but we also need to recognize that he didn't see righteousness by faith in the light of the great controversy. He didn't see the true relationship between the law and the gospel. So we can honor and admire Martin Luther for the great man of God that he was, yet at the same time reject the notion that Luther was right in everything he said. He did the work God had for him; and now we need to make sure we do the work God has for us. It will build on Martin Luther's work but it won't copy it.

[John317]

..."Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, (SDAs) will they not in like manner be rejected?" C.O.L.304. *parenthesis supplied

The call of God is conditional.

Yes, the call of God to us as individual believers is definitely conditional. Ellen White says that the Advent movement that arose after 1844 will go through to the end, so the only real question we need to ask ourselves is whether we will go through with it. A new "coming out" won't be necessary.

Nothing that the Bible or Ellen White say should be understood to support the notion some deluded people have that SDAs need to drop out of the church. We can be sure that anyone who's teaching that the SDA church is Babylon or that God calls people to leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is not of God.

[John317]

... The church appeared to fall but it DID NOT fall. There were the "faithful few," the disciples of Christ who resisted those who would lord it over them. This group became known as the Early Church. Mrs. White, in The Desire of Ages, p.719, identifies them as the "little church" then. This is the church that appeared to fall but did not fall.

I think what Ellen White says on DA 719 is interesting because of her description of Judas:

Quote:

From that time he expressed doubts that confused the disciples. He introduced controversies and misleading sentiments, repeating the arguments urged by the scribes and Pharisees against the claims of Christ. All the little and large troubles and crosses, the difficulties and the apparent hindrances to the advancement of the gospel, Judas interpreted as evidences against its truthfulness. He would introduce texts of Scripture that had no connection with the truths Christ was presenting. These texts, separated from their connection, perplexed the disciples, and increased the discouragement that was constantly pressing upon them. Yet all this was done by Judas in such a way as to make it appear that he was conscientious. And while the disciples were searching for evidence to confirm the words of the Great Teacher, Judas would lead them almost imperceptibly on another track. Thus in a very religious, and apparently wise, way he was presenting matters in a different light from that in which Jesus had given them, and attaching to His words a meaning that He had not conveyed. His suggestions were constantly exciting an ambitious desire for temporal preferment, and thus turning the disciples from the important things they should have considered. The dissension as to which of them should be greatest was generally excited by Judas.

When Jesus presented to the rich young ruler the condition of discipleship, Judas was displeased. He thought that a mistake had been made. If such men as this ruler could be connected with the believers, they would help sustain Christ's cause. If Judas were only received as a counselor, he thought, he could suggest many plans for the advantage of the little church. His principles and methods would differ somewhat from Christ's, but in these things he thought himself wiser than Christ. {DA 719.2,3}

In all that Christ said to His disciples, there was something with which, in heart, Judas disagreed. Under his influence the leaven of disaffection was fast doing its work. The disciples did not see the real agency in all this; but Jesus saw that Satan was communicating his attributes to Judas, and thus opening up a channel through which to influence the other disciples. This, a year before the betrayal, Christ declared. "Have not I chosen you twelve," He said, "and one of you is a devil?" John 6:70. {DA 720.1}

Yet Judas made no open opposition, ...