Will the SDA church "Fall"?

[John317]

Our problem is, and always has been, the part of us we reserve. That was the problem with the COI, the Jews of Christ's day, and it is ours.

I agree. So, each of us must allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what part of us we are keeping back from surrendering fully to Christ. He will do it if we ask him to and if we follow His leading.

[John317]

...."The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

She explains elsewhere that we appropriate them by claiming them and that it is our privilege to do so. This is the science of salvation, the science of sciences.

"We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith & Works, p.86.

I'd like to hear more about claiming the merits of Christ.

[Parade Orange]

ok im going back into my cave!

just remember this is a messgae board

we are not beholden to each other

[John317]

You're right that this is a message board, a forum. Thanks for reminding us. :-)

I hope you stay, Parade.

Personally I'm interested in your thoughts about the church-- what you believe the church is and also whether you believe the SDA Church will "fall."

[John317]

..."Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, (SDAs) will they not in like manner be rejected?" C.O.L.304. *parenthesis supplied

Are you sure that passage refers to the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

Read the passage in context:

Quote:

There are many whose names are on the church books, but who are not under Christ's rule. They are not heeding His instruction or doing His work. Therefore they are under the control of the enemy. They are doing no positive good; therefore they are doing incalculable harm. Because their influence is not a savor of life unto life, it is a savor of death unto death. {COL 304.1}

The Lord says, "Shall I not visit for these things?" Jeremiah 5:9. Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, will they not in like manner be rejected? {COL 304.2}

In the parable of the vineyard it was the husbandmen whom Christ pronounced guilty. It was they who had refused to return to their lord the fruit of his ground. In the Jewish nation it was the priests and teachers who, by misleading the people, had robbed God of the service which He claimed. It was they who turned the nation away from Christ. {COL 304.3}

[ClubV12]

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall."

Letter 55, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, December 8, 1886.). Manuscript Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999, 1982-1983]. 1993; 2002 (328).

In the above letter to Butler and Haskell it is VERY CLEAR Sister White is talking about the organized Seventh-day Adventist church. See the very FIRST post on this thread for more on this.

When we see the "institutional" failure joeb mentions this prophecy is FULFILLED. The church APPEARS about to fall, but it does not. Sister White makes a similiar referrennce in Acts of the Apostles.

When she uses the term "church" in her writings, that church is comprised of:

The early church, the scattered church during the dark ages and todays modern Seventh-day Adventist church. God has ALWAYS had a people somewhere all the time. Today WE are that people. Seventh-day Adventists ARE the church to which she refers.

[joeb]

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall."

Letter 55, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, December 8, 1886.). Manuscript Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999, 1982-1983]. 1993; 2002 (328).

In the above letter to Butler and Haskell it is VERY CLEAR Sister White is talking about the organized Seventh-day Adventist church. See the very FIRST post on this thread for more on this.

When we see the "institutional" failure joeb mentions this prophecy is FULFILLED. The church APPEARS about to fall, but it does not. Sister White makes a similiar referrennce in Acts of the Apostles.

When she uses the term "church" in her writings, that church is comprised of:

The early church, the scattered church during the dark ages and todays modern Seventh-day Adventist church. God has ALWAYS had a people somewhere all the time. Today WE are that people. Seventh-day Adventists ARE the church to which she refers.

No offense, but when I see single sentences quoted to support a position I get suspicious. I like lots of context to go with my quotes and I don't have access to the manuscripts. How about posting the paragraphs the sentences were taken from, plus the preceding and following paragraphs? I'm not accusing you of anything. I just like to have the whole story.

And, where is it said that what you say is the fulfillment of that prophecy truly is. You might think that, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. I'd like evidence of your assertion. It's not like the church, has made a major uturn and shut down the offending schools, rid itself of the evils of taking federal money, and started following all the counsels given it about education and spirituality.

God's church didn't fall when the Jewish nation was rejected. A remnant of the nation and we Gentiles became God's church. The church didn't fall when the Roman church fell. Small groups like the Waldensees replaced it. So, to say the only way the church can not fall is for the SDA denomination to fullfil its mission is a logical stretch. I'm not saying the SDA church must fall, but to exclude the possibility is to create a sense of spiritual ease/pride in membership.

[ClubV12]

See the very FIRST post on this thread for more detail. There is no question she is talking about the organized Seventh-day Adventist church in this letter to Butler and Haskell.

You are absolutely correct when looking at a Sister White quote, or a bible quote, we need to understand not only the context but time, place, historic events that were occuring, the people the message is directed at. AND compare that to other relevant testimony.

joeb says,

"And, where is it said that what you say is the fulfillment of that prophecy truly is. You might think that, but that doesn't necessarily make it true."

You certainly seem to be suggesting that the failure of our Education system points to "institution apostasy", lets also add the failure of our medical missionary work as well. Many off shoots point to BOTH of these failures as "apostasy" and "proof" the church is doomed, forever, will not recover, that people MUST remove their membership. Thus, fulfilling the prophecy, "appears about to fall, but does not fall".

By the way, I was very glad to see LSU take positive steps to correct the creation teaching at that school. Was it enough? For some, it will never be enough and so they will leave the church and join off shoots.

It is important to note:

Self supporting work has done a supreme job of being separate and yet remaining within the church body. A solid rebuke for anyone thinking that have to "leave" and join an off shoot.

[joeb]

ClubV12,

I would like to see the entire context, which you have not given. All you have given were sentence-long extracts with your own commentary.

[ClubV12]

The letter is TEN PAGES long joeb, I won't post in it's entirety. I believe I have posted a well balanced view of that letter. Buy the Ellen White CD rom for $19.95 at the ABC if your serious about getting balanced views. Each of us must find the truth for ourselves.

If you doubt she is making referrence to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church by what I've posted off it, the reading the entire letter (10 pages) isn't going to change your mind. Butler and Haskell are not leaders of some "off shoot" church she is writing to. They are not leading some group of ill defined people around the world. They are not leaders of some "home church". They are the leaders of the organized Seventh-day Adventist church. Draw whatever conclusion you want...

Lets assume for a moment that joebs idea the Seventh-day Adventist church is in "apostasy" (or joebs theory it is possible at least). Some say that was the case since 1888. Some say that is the case NOW. Some say that WILL be the case in the future.

What are you going to do about it? There is no gray area here. Each will have to make a decision.

Remove your membership and separate from the body of believers and become an off shoot? Because when you leave the church, thats what you will be. When you set up your own home church will you actively solicite other Adventists (the lost sheep) to join you? You will incur certain expenses. Will you collect tithe and offerings (thus robbing God in my opinion)? Some associate with a larger group of off shoots, paying a portion of the collected tithe to the head of the off shoot group. If so, you WILL swear allegiance and pay money to this new church you have joined yourself with.

There have been thousands who have left the organized Seventh-day Adventist church since 1844 to form their own "church". Every one comes up with a valid excuse. They don't like the doctrine, the Adventists are in apostasy. The church institutions have failed. The church is doomed. And of course the CLASSIC, what IS the church? May I suggest the church is not YOU!!! It is not comprised of YOUR family alone. You WILL bind yourself with SOMEONE, SOME other group.

Is it time to do that now, joeb? Like A.T. Jones and so many others felt it was when they left? Will you follow them?

Or will you follow the example's of Paul and other self supporters working along the irregular lines? Separate, but supporting. It CAN be done, it WILL be done, it IS being done, I AM doing right now in my local church! How? I STOPPED looking at the PEOPLE. I STOPPED complaining about all the problems I see. I'm reading and learning the blue print and living it, right here in my local church. If YOUR NOT, find the courage to do so and quit crying you can't. There is no excuse for leaving the Seventh-day Adventist church, period, no matter how much it looks like it will fail.

[ClubV12]

Another related debate is the Tithe issue. I've talked to a few very sincere Adventists who have stopped paying tithe because they say the leadership isn't using the money properly. Which is to say, they aren't using it YOUR WAY, the way YOU WANT them too! Some even quote Ellen White and say SHE didn't pay tithe at times! Who made YOU a prophet to decide whether or not you pay tithe?

I can quote bible verses that show anything I want to prove, AND back them up with Ellen White quotes as well!

As a member of the Adventist church you have a responsibility to support that church, with you tithe. Your offering to GOD. What becomes of it after that is between leadership and the Lord, do not interfere with God's business as if you don't trust Him.

I'm not saying you HAVE to pay tithe, I'm saying it's very poor excuse to not pay it because you don't like where it's going! If you don't like where it's going, get out of the church. Go make and support your own church, call it whatever name you like, please don't call it, "Seventh-day Adventist".

GET IN or GET OUT people, get OFF the FENCE!

[joeb]

The letter is TEN PAGES long joeb, I won't post in it's entirety. I believe I have posted a well balanced view of that letter. Buy the Ellen White CD rom for $19.95 at the ABC if your serious about getting balanced views. Each of us must find the truth for ourselves.

If you doubt she is making referrence to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church by what I've posted off it, the reading the entire letter (10 pages) isn't going to change your mind. Butler and Haskell are not leaders of some "off shoot" church she is writing to. They are not leading some group of ill defined people around the world. They are not leaders of some "home church". They are the leaders of the organized Seventh-day Adventist church. Draw whatever conclusion you want...

Lets assume for a moment that joebs idea the Seventh-day Adventist church is in "apostasy" (or joebs theory it is possible at least). Some say that was the case since 1888. Some say that is the case NOW. Some say that WILL be the case in the future.

What are you going to do about it? There is no gray area here. Each will have to make a decision.

Remove your membership and separate from the body of believers and become an off shoot? Because when you leave the church, thats what you will be. When you set up your own home church will you actively solicite other Adventists (the lost sheep) to join you? You will incur certain expenses. Will you collect tithe and offerings (thus robbing God in my opinion)? Some associate with a larger group of off shoots, paying a portion of the collected tithe to the head of the off shoot group. If so, you WILL swear allegiance and pay money to this new church you have joined yourself with.

There have been thousands who have left the organized Seventh-day Adventist church since 1844 to form their own "church". Every one comes up with a valid excuse. They don't like the doctrine, the Adventists are in apostasy. The church institutions have failed. The church is doomed. And of course the CLASSIC, what IS the church? May I suggest the church is not YOU!!! It is not comprised of YOUR family alone. You WILL bind yourself with SOMEONE, SOME other group.

Is it time to do that now, joeb? Like A.T. Jones and so many others felt it was when they left? Will you follow them?

Or will you follow the example's of Paul and other self supporters working along the irregular lines? Separate, but supporting. It CAN be done, it WILL be done, it IS being done, I AM doing right now in my local church! How? I STOPPED looking at the PEOPLE. I STOPPED complaining about all the problems I see. I'm reading and learning the blue print and living it, right here in my local church. If YOUR NOT, find the courage to do so and quit crying you can't. There is no excuse for leaving the Seventh-day Adventist church, period, no matter how much it looks like it will fail.

[phkrause]

John317,

You seem to have missed the point of what you quoted. The Jews were rejected as a nation. The election went to the remnant of the Jews, those who believed on Christ, but the Jewish nation as a unit was rejected.

I disagree, the Jews were rejected as a nation, the Jews as a nation rejected Jesus as the Messiah. They now need to accept Jesus as the Messiah as individuals, just like all others.

[ClubV12]

joeb, I presented the LETTER to Butler and Haskell in what I believe is a well balanced manner. Sister White in this letter is referring to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church leadership.

Wherein she says,

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall."

It APPEARS about to fall, as you point out. She doesn't say, anywhere, the church is perfect. I readily acknowledge the church has serious problems. SO serious, her prophecy is being fulfilled on this very thread, it "APPEARS the church is about to fall." But it does not fall.

Now back to the pertinent question:

What do you recommend to members of the Seventh-day Adventist church in response to these allegations, accusations and suppositions that the church has "apostized"? Some say it REMAINS in apostasy since 1888? Some say it will NOT ever recover, that is doomed, it is Babylon. Waht do you believe? IF you believe the church (Adventist, organized, the same one Ellen White speaks of) IS in apostasy, what do you recommend we do? That I DO? That your friends DO?

Will you offer "semi support" for the church? Half heartedly, laodecia in fashion? Or condem the church as Babylon? Or will you support the church, as Edson White did? As self supporting workers today do as well? Edson was a self supporting worker, who worked independantly from but loved the church and supported it fully. He didn't murmer and complain and point out how terrible it all was, he went to work. He brought souls not to some "home church" but to the Seventh-day Adventist church!!

[ClubV12]

Since joeb seems to suggest Lysimachus is is harmony with the idea the church will fall, I'd like to invite him (Lysimachus) to comment on the pertinent questions raised.

What do we do about it? When? Did those who left in the 1920's, 30's, 40's, 80's, 90's leave prematurely? How ARE those folks doing today with their "home church" movement?

Perhaps we could explore what IS a "home church"? What does that mean? There are of course numerous "Adventist" (so called) related websites that promote home churches. Most all of them also support the idea that the Adventist church is Babylon and therefore must remove your membership. And oh, by the way, send THEM a portion of the tithe you will be collecting in your new home church...

[joeb]

Since joeb seems to suggest Lysimachus is is harmony with the idea the church will fall, I'd like to invite him (Lysimachus) to comment on the pertinent questions raised.

What do we do about it? When? Did those who left in the 1920's, 30's, 40's, 80's, 90's leave prematurely? How ARE those folks doing today with their "home church" movement?

I am not saying the church will fall for that isn't what the quote said. There is a huge difference between saying something is a possibility, and something is a sure thing.

If you disagree with what Ellen White said in the quote, what has that to do with me? You're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with the author of the quote.

I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to put words in my mouth. Show me where I have advocated that anyone leave the church. Show me where I have said the church has already been rejected by God.

The COI were in apostacy while in the wilderness. They still made it to the promised land. You need to think carefully about what I'm saying, not just go off on a knee-jerk reaction thinking I'm being an accuser of the brethren. I include myself in all that I've said. I'm not setting myself above anyone else.

[ClubV12]

Like I mentioned earlier joeb, were talking in general terms.

Some have a position that church "may" fall. Some think it "has" fallen. Some think it "will" fall in the future.

Note my phrasing, "SEEMS to SUGGEST Lysimachus is is harmony with the idea the church will fall,". I don't know that Lysimachus has taken a position, may, has or might as far as that goes.

For those folks who feel it HAS apostized, and they are numerous, what do you think they should do? Is their position correct in leaving? Some folks have felt the church has been in apostasy since 1888. For decades the church could be viewed as "about to fall" depending on how you see history. For decades people have left the church and started various off shoot movements as a result.

MY position is that to leave the church was just as wrong in 1888 as it was in 2008 and it is wrong today!

[joeb]

Like I mentioned earlier joeb, were talking in general terms.

Some have a position that church "may" fall. Some think it "has" fallen. Some think it "will" fall in the future.

Note my phrasing, "SEEMS to SUGGEST Lysimachus is is harmony with the idea the church will fall,". I don't know that Lysimachus has taken a position, may, has or might as far as that goes.

For those folks who feel it HAS apostized, and they are numerous, what do you think they should do? Is their position correct in leaving? Some folks have felt the church has been in apostasy since 1888. For decades the church could be viewed as "about to fall" depending on how you see history. For decades people have left the church and started various off shoot movements as a result.

MY position is that to leave the church was just as wrong in 1888 as it was in 2008 and it is wrong today!

I take no position on what others are doing, have done, or will do. I don't know about you, but I do not want the responsibility. Each of us are responsible for following the dictates of our own conscience. Each of us must do what we think is right for ourselves.

All I'm responsible for is my own actions, and that's a weighty enough responsibility for me.

[John317]

...I like lots of context to go with my quotes and I don't have access to the manuscripts. How about posting the paragraphs the sentences were taken from, plus the preceding and following paragraphs?

Quote:

Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects, he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy. If he could blot them from the earth, his triumph would be complete. As he influenced the heathen nations to destroy Israel, so in the near future he will stir up the wicked powers of earth to destroy the people of God. . . . Their only hope is in the mercy of God; their only defense will be prayer. {Mar 32.2}

The trying experiences that came to God's people in the days of Esther were not peculiar to that age alone. The revelator, looking down the ages to the close of time, has declared, "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17. Some who today are living on the earth will see these words fulfilled. {Mar 32.3}

The wrath of Satan increases as his time grows short, and his work of deceit and destruction will reach its culmination in the time of trouble. {Mar 32.4}

Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. {Mar 32.5}

God declares that even a mother may forget her child, "yet will I not forget thee." . . . God thinks of His children with the tenderest solicitude and keeps a book of remembrance before Him, that He may never forget the children of His care. {Mar 32.6}

Quote:

All the policy in the world cannot save us from a terrible sifting, and all the efforts made with high authorities will not lift from us the scourging of God, just because sin is cherished. If as a people we do not keep ourselves in the faith and not only advocate with pen and voice the commandments of God, but keep them every one, not violating a single precept knowingly, then weakness and ruin will come upon us. It is a work that we must attend to in every one of our churches. Each man must be a Christian. {12MR 323.1}

Let the sin of pride be put away, let all superfluities of dress be overcome, and repentance toward God be exercised for the highhanded robbery toward Him, which has withheld money that should flow into the treasury to sustain the work of God in its mission fields. Let the work of reformation, of true conversion, be set before and urged upon the people. Let our works, our deportment, correspond with the work for this time, that we may say, "Follow me as I follow Christ." Let us humble our souls before God by humiliation, fasting and prayer, repentance of sin, and putting it away. {12MR 323.2}

The voice of the true watchman needs now to be heard all along the line, "The morning cometh, and also the night" [isaiah 21:12]. The trumpet must give a certain sound, for we are in the great day of the Lord's preparation. All the struggles to carry our appeals to the highest authorities in our land, however earnest and strong and eloquent may be the pleas in our favor, will not bring about that which we desire unless the Lord works by His Holy Spirit in the heart of those who claim to believe the truth. We may struggle as a mighty man in swimming against the current of Niagara, but we shall fail unless the Lord pleads in our behalf. God will be honored among His people. They must be pure, they must be divested of self, steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. The Lord will

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elevate the humblest soul that trusts in Him. He will unite His power with human effort if that man will honor Him as did Daniel. But as a people we need the beauty of righteousness, holiness, and truth. The most harmonious theory will not save us. The God that ruled in Babylon is the same God that rules now. {12MR 323.3}

There are many doctrines current in our world. There is many a religion current that numbers its thousands and tens of thousands, but there is but one that bears the superscription and the stamp of God. There is a religion of man and a religion of God. We must have our souls riveted to the eternal Rock. Everything in God's world, both men and doctrines and nature itself, is fulfilling God's sure word of prophecy and accomplishing His grand and closing work in this world's history. {12MR 324.1}

We are to be ready and waiting for the orders of God. Nations will be stirred to their very center. Support will be withdrawn from those who proclaim God's only standard of righteousness, the only sure test of character. And all who will not bow to the decrees of the national councils and obey the national laws to exalt the sabbath instituted by the man of sin to the disregard of God's holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast. {12MR 324.2}

Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and

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true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. {12MR 324.3}

The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surrounding apostasy. All these, He says, "I have graven . . . upon the palms of my hands" [isaiah 49:16]. They are held in everlasting, imperishable remembrance. We want faith now, living faith. We want to have a living testimony that shall cut to the heart of the sinner. There is too much sermonizing and too little ministering. We want the holy unction. We need the spirit and fervor of the truth. Many of the ministers are half paralyzed by their own defects of character. They need the converting power of God. {12MR 325.1}

That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight. God help us to render to Him all His law requires. We cannot do this without that faith that brings Christ's righteousness into daily practice. {12MR 325.2}

Dear brethren, the Lord is coming. Lift up your thoughts and heads and rejoice. Oh, we would think that those who hear the joyful news, who claim to love Jesus, would be filled with joy unutterable and full of glory. This is the good, the joyful news which should electrify every soul, which should be repeated in our homes, and told to those whom we meet on the street. What more joyful news can be communicated! Caviling and contention with believers or unbelievers is not the work God has given us to do.

-326- {12MR 325.3}

If Christ is my Saviour, my sacrifice, my atonement, then I shall never perish. Believing on Him, I have life forevermore. Oh, that all who believe the truth would believe in Jesus as their own Saviour. I do not mean that cheap faith unsupported by works, but that earnest, living, constant, abiding faith, that eats the flesh and drinks the blood of the Son of God. I want not only to be pardoned for the transgression of God's holy law, but I want to be lifted into the sunshine of God's countenance. Not simply to be admitted to heaven, but to have an abundant entrance. {12MR 326.1}

Are we so insensible as a peculiar people, a holy nation, to the inexpressible love that God has manifested for us? Salvation is not to be baptized, not to have our names upon the church books, not to preach the truth. But it is a living union with Jesus Christ, to be renewed in heart, doing the works of Christ in faith and labor of love, in patience, meekness, and hope. Every soul united to Christ will be a living missionary to all around him. He will labor for those near and those afar off. He will have no sectional feeling, no interest merely to build up one branch of the work over which he presides and there let his zeal end. All will work with interest to make every branch strong. There will be no self-love, no selfish interest. The cause is one, the truth a great whole. {12MR 326.2}

Well may the question be asked with earnest, anxious heart, "Is envy cherished, is jealousy permitted to find a place in my heart?" If so, Christ is not there. "Do I love the law of God, is the love of Jesus Christ in my heart?" If we love one another as Christ has loved us, then we are getting ready for the blessed heaven of peace and rest. There is no struggling there to be first, to have the supremacy; all will love their neighbor

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as themselves. Oh, that God would open the understanding and speak to the hearts of our churches by arousing the individual members. {12MR 326.3}

The Lord appoints and sends forth ministers not only to preach, for this is a small part of His work, but to minister, to educate the people not to be fighters but to be examples of piety. There are workers in every department appointed to do their work. When Jesus ascended on high He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. Some have entered the work with a human commission rather than the divine. They have educated themselves as debaters, and the churches under their care show the character of their work. They were not ready, they were not fitted for the work. Their hearts are not right with God. In short, they have a theory but not true conversion and sanctification through the truth. The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed, and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain. {12MR 327.1}

Our prayer should ascend to the throne of grace with fervor for the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers into His vineyard. My heart aches as I look around upon the mission fields and see so feeble efforts to get the truth before the people. No censure can be attached to our leading men. I believe, brethren, you are one with me in heart, in sentiment, in regard to our great need, and in the earnest desire and earnest efforts to meet the mind of the Spirit of God in these things. {12MR 327.2}

Those who are at ease in Zion need to be aroused. Great is their accountability who bear the truth and yet feel no weight or burden for souls. Oh, for men and women professing the truth to arouse, to take on the yoke of Christ, to lift His burdens. There are wanted those who will not

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have merely a nominal interest but a Christlike interest, unselfish--an intense ardor that will not flag under difficulties or cool because iniquity abounds. {12MR 327.3}

I want to speak to the ears of our people in America in every church. Awake from the dead, and Christ will give you life. Souls are perishing for the light of truth as it is in Jesus. We are standing upon the very borders of the eternal world. Fair-weather Christians will not be wanted for this work. The sentimental and tasteful religion is not needed for this time. There must be intensity brought into our faith and in the proclamation of truth. I tell you, a new life is proceeding from satanic agencies to work with a power we have not hitherto realized. And shall not a new power from above take possession of God's people? The truth, sanctifying in its influence, must be urged upon the people. There must be earnest supplications offered to God, agonizing prayer to Him, that our hopes as a people may not be founded on suppositions, but on eternal realities. We must know for ourselves, by the evidence of God's Word, whether we are in the faith, going to heaven or not. The moral standard of character is God's law. Do we meet its requirements? Are the Lord's people bringing their property, their time, their talents, and all their influence into the work for this time? Let us arouse. "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" [Colossians 3:1].-- Letter 55, 1886. (Written from Basel, Switzerland, to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, December 8, 1886.).

White Estate Washington, D. C. July 7, 1983 Entire Ms. {12MR 328.1}

[skyblue888]

Club, you have come to Adventism only a few years ago. You joined this forum only a few months ago. Yet you take the attitude that you are in a position to teach. Some of us here have been connected with adventism for more than 30 or 40 years and have been on this forum from its inception.

I have made my position clear to the members of this forum way before you joined it. My website at www.hidden-treasures.ca makes it perfectly clear as to where I stand. You will not find any call to separate from the church in my books because I believe and teach that in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll we are living in the time of the second call of the parable of Matt.22. Only as this final call to the bidden ones is rejected can separation be present truth. Judging by the way God's message is being received today, it won't be long before the church will have sealed her final rejection of God's mercy as did the Jews at the stoning of Stephen.

On many occasions I have shared the parable of Matt.22 and demonstrated that this parable like others is a description of the past history of ancient Israel in the days of Christ and a prophecy delineating last day events within adventism since 1844.

In my late posts I have simply tried to show that 1888 was the first call of Matt.22 which was resisted and that rejection fulfilled the prediction to the very letter, as recorded in the parable. And I have also attempted to show that God is still calling for that message to be received, believed, and acted upon. Only as this righteousness by faith message is received, believed, and acted upon can the people of God be clothed with the panoply of Heaven and Christ enthroned in the hearts of His people.

Between the first call and the second call is a crucifixion. In the days of Christ it was His own crucifixion. In our day it was the crucifixion of the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people. This took place in 1957 when the pillars of our faith were compromised in order to be recognized by Christendom as a Christian denomination.

All of this is now history. The second call is present truth. We are living in solemn times. We do not half understand it. Any more than the Jewish people did, we do not know the times of our visitation.

"The eye of Jesus, looking down the ages, was fixed upon our time when He said, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace.' It is still thy day, O church of God, whom He has made the depository of His law. This day of trust and probation is drawing to a close. The sun is fast westering. Can it be that it will set and th ou wilt not know 'the things which belong unto thy peace!'? Must the irrovecable sentence be passed, 'But now they are hid from thine eyes.'" (Luke 19:42) E.G. White, Review & Herald, Sept.13, 1892.

This was stated in 1892 while the 1888 message was still being proclaimed. The message was presented until 1901. In that year the Lord sent this testimony: "We may have to remain in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel." Evangelism, 696.

So, I suggest that you take a more humble attitude toward those who have studied our history for the last three or four decades and stop making false allegations. The people of this forum should know that I have never said that it is time to call people out of the church.

Many of you will remember that when the people of Creation SDA were posting, I took a strong position against theirs which would have us believe that the church was Babylon the Great and that the call to come out had been sounding since 1989 I believe when they were taken to court by the General Conference.

So how can you come here and tell the people of this forum that I am an impostor and that I am calling people out of the church. I have not said anything until now because I thought that John317 and others would come to my defense but they didn't for reasons that only God knows.

sky

[John317]

....the LETTER to Butler and Haskell ... Sister White in this letter is referring to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church leadership.

No doubt about it. See post #486013.

[ClubV12]

An interesting thing about the Mormon church is will take years for you to really get to the bottom of what they believe. And even then, you may NEVER get there because to hear the whole truth, all of it, you have to reach a certain level of "righteousness" approved by the brethren. This is a LOT of spiritualism in that church the deeper you go the darker it gets. At some point it truly starts to take on a "Star Wars" science fiction type theme, humans becoming gods on other planets and turning out spiritual men for the earth.

Now Seventh-day Adventists, in comparison, are quite easy. Nothing is hidden, it's right there for anybody who cares to study it, there are no deep mysteries you have to be worthy to figure out. It doesn't take 30 or 40 years to learn this. It doesn't take a college degree. You don't need to be an author. You don't need to and attend lots of seminars and meetings. You don't need to read a lot (if ANY) "good" Adventist books (including your books Sky). You could learn everything about this church living in the wilderness by yourself with your bible and the writings of Ellen White alone. In fact, you might learn MORE that way in far shorter time!

Remaining balanced is a challenge however! It's remarkably easy to find an Ellen White quote to support whatever position you want. Like the bible, you have to come to it with an open and sincere desire to find truth.

It is abundantly clear WHO and WHAT the church is, Ellen White presents no mystery in this regard. It is clear the church WILL go through. Righteousness by faith is found everywhere in the bible, in the works of Ellen White. Coming out of the church, or following some sect, group, person that calls themselves a prophet or any other man is NOT a requirement to understand this beautiful message.

Seventh-day Adventist life style, simple really, we have the blue print in exhausting detail from the throne of God to us through His messenger's. It's not nearly as complicated as some seem to think.

Dancing, movies, jewlery, card playing, what to read, what to eat, what to wear, where to live, how to worship, how to witness (Volume 9 is really good on that subject), tithes and offerings, stewardship, medical missionary work, our schools, our responsibility to the church, every detail, it's all covered. It doesn't take a few decades to understand ANY of this.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

....the LETTER to Butler and Haskell ... Sister White in this letter is referring to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church leadership.

No doubt about it. See post #486013.

[joeb]

John317,

Thank you for the context.

I don't see anything there at variance with what I've been saying all along. There is no evidence there that the majority of the church will stand.

Quote:

None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths.

This has always described a minority, not a majority, throughout the entire history of the church.

Quote:

We may struggle as a mighty man in swimming against the current of Niagara, but we shall fail unless the Lord pleads in our behalf. God will be honored among His people. They must be pure, they must be divested of self, steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. The Lord will elevate the humblest soul that trusts in Him. He will unite His power with human effort if that man will honor Him as did Daniel. But as a people we need the beauty of righteousness, holiness, and truth. The most harmonious theory will not save us. The God that ruled in Babylon is the same God that rules now.

Look at the need we have. Is it in the church today? Is it in each and every one of us? Notice the "we shall fail" phrase. God will plead for us, if.... There are conditions to met. Are we meeting them? Are we pure? Are we completely divested of self? Are we always steadfast and unmovable, and at all times abounding in the work of the Lord? What is the conversation like at your church's after-church potlucks? That's always a very good clue as to the spiritual condition of the church for it shows what is uppermost in our minds, what we love to talk about.

We must accept God's analysis of us. We are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, spiritually speaking. And, we do think we are pretty well off spiritually. This needs to wake us up to our condition and make us wonder if the church will make through. We are counseled to accept righteousness by faith, but will we, truly? Jesus doesn't say what happens to the Laodicea church. Whatever it is, it's up to us to decide where it will go, and we can't do that by saying we can never fail. We must not be that arrogant.

[ClubV12]

I agree joeb, and thanks Lysimachus for making your position clear as well.

I've said before, many times, as have others, only a fraction, a remnant of the remnant will survive the coming storm and go through to the end.

As for me, I will continue to support the church in every way I can EVEN IF they remove my membership AND kick me out! Like Daniel, I will stay with my people, like Caleb and Joshua, I too will wander with my people. Like Moses, I will not abandon them under any circumstances. Like the widow and her two mites, I will do my part.

...now how exactly a person is going to be able to do that when the storm hits, relentless in it's fury, has yet to be determined. But we DO have some excellent counsel on how to prepare, primarily spiritual counsel, but real concrete rubber meets the road counsel as well. Country living comes to mind, self supporting comes to mind, being separate and yet a part of the body comes to mind. Looking up to and relying on no man or group, and yet, recognizing the wonderful blessing of assembling with God's people. Sharing your experiences, encouraging them, drawing strength from them. When necessary, drawing warmth from their coldness, loving them, as Jesus did the church, the organized church, of His time. Don't give up the ship, I'm going down with the Captain and He WILL save to the uttermost.