Will the SDA church "Fall"?

[ClubV12]

I wanted to say I have great respect for those among us who have for years studied these things and provide excellent support, for or against, different views and interpretations of the more complex issues. Certainly I am not ready to stand with them!!!

Fundamental truths and insights are much easier to deal with than the question, "what IS the daily"? I don't know. I know what the pioneers believed, and at that TIME I believe they were correct in their view. The more modern view, having to do with the Most Holy Place, makes a lot of sense considering what we learned following 1844. But I'm not ready to make a theological stand on the issue supported with documentation and much research. I'll leave that to Lysimachus, John317 and other learned men, and thank God for their ministry. :)

[Overaged]

Club, you have come to Adventism only a few years ago. You joined this forum only a few months ago. Yet you take the attitude that you are in a position to teach. Some of us here have been connected with adventism for more than 30 or 40 years and have been on this forum from its inception.

This gives you absolutely no merit before God; or qualifications within the church. Amount of time and study means almost nothing.

[skyblue888]

Over, you don't have to tell me that it is not how many years you have believed something that makes it the truth. I understand that. That's not what I am talking about here. And you know that for years I have been teaching that only the merits of Christ avail with God. I am talking about common sense here.

sky

[skyblue888]

I wanted to say I have great respect for those among us who have for years studied these things and provide excellent support, for or against, different views and interpretations of the more complex issues. Certainly I am not ready to stand with them!!!

Fundamental truths and insights are much easier to deal with than the question, "what IS the daily"? I don't know. I know what the pioneers believed, and at that TIME I believe they were correct in their view. The more modern view, having to do with the Most Holy Place, makes a lot of sense considering what we learned following 1844. But I'm not ready to make a theological stand on the issue supported with documentation and much research. I'll leave that to Lysimachus, John317 and other learned men, and thank God for their ministry.

Club, you say you are not ready to stand with them and yet you have become one of the most vocal individuals here on clubadventist, if not the most, on any and every issue discussed be it complex or not. If you happen to disagree with anyone, you become inflexible and very arrogant and sometimes bordering bigotry. The way you have been dealing with me personally is more than sufficient to prove what I am saying here. You are nice only to people who support "the church" as you define that church to be. One is a scholar only if he agrees with your personal views. Is this the way Jesus dealt with those who disagreed with Him or who opposed Him and even crucified Him?

sky

How can one who claims to have been connected with Adventism for only a few years speak the way you do on any issue, complex or not, as though you have been at it for decades?

[skyblue888]

"I have made my position clear to the members of this forum way before you joined it. My website at www.hidden-treasures.ca makes it perfectly clear as to where I stand. You will not find any call to separate from the church in my books because I believe and teach that in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll we are living in the time of the second call of the parable of Matt.22. Only as this final call to the bidden ones is rejected can separation be present truth. Judging by the way God's message is being received today, it won't be long before the church will have sealed her final rejection of God's mercy as did the Jews at the stoning of Stephen.

On many occasions I have shared the parable of Matt.22 and demonstrated that this parable like others is a description of the past history of ancient Israel in the days of Christ and a prophecy delineating last day events within adventism since 1844.

In my late posts I have simply tried to show that 1888 was the first call of Matt.22 which was resisted and that rejection fulfilled the prediction to the very letter, as recorded in the parable. And I have also attempted to show that God is still calling for that message to be received, believed, and acted upon. Only as this righteousness by faith message is received, believed, and acted upon can the people of God be clothed with the panoply of Heaven and Christ enthroned in the hearts of His people.

Between the first call and the second call is a crucifixion. In the days of Christ it was His own crucifixion. In our day it was the crucifixion of the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people. This took place in 1957 when the pillars of our faith were compromised in order to be recognized by Christendom as a Christian denomination.

All of this is now history. The second call is present truth. We are living in solemn times. We do not half understand it. Any more than the Jewish people did, we do not know the times of our visitation.

"The eye of Jesus, looking down the ages, was fixed upon our time when He said, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace.' It is still thy day, O church of God, whom He has made the depository of His law. This day of trust and probation is drawing to a close. The sun is fast westering. Can it be that it will set and thou wilt not know 'the things which belong unto thy peace!'? Must the irrovecable sentence be passed, 'But now they are hid from thine eyes.'" (Luke 19:42) E.G. White, Review & Herald, Sept.13, 1892.

This was stated in 1892 while the 1888 message was still being proclaimed. The message was presented until 1901. In that year the Lord sent this testimony: "We may have to remain in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel." Evangelism, 696.

_________

Over, what about the above? Do you find anything wrong with that position? Do you agree that Mrs. White is here saying that there is a time of probation for the church today as there was for the Jewish church? If the church rejects the second and last call to her, she will seal her rejection of God's mercy and the call will go to the world and it will swell into the loud cry.

sky

[ClubV12]

I take no pleasure in confronting you, Sky, on these issues. Most of these issues are not rocket science and I don't attempt to engage in many subjects that frankly, go over my head.

MOST of the issues Adventists face are straight forward and we have extremely detailed counsel on how to address them. Need an answer on some subject or issue? Most often it's in the writings of Ellen White in a clear and easy to understand manner! And if it's not clear and easy to understand, I won't have much to say on it.

Like the nature of Christ, I don't have a position about that I care to discuss in depth. He was divine, He was human, I'm OK with leaving it right there. I'm not sure WHY it seems to be SUCH a big deal to some?

Coffee? The counsel is clear, I'm "inflexible" on that. I will ignore those that present scientific data that suggests it's "OK". It is not, the scientists are wrong. If that makes me "arrogant", then I need to work on expressing my view in a softer way. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. But my view won't change, it's "inflexible" on that point.

[ClubV12]

Sky says,

"...perfectly clear as to where I stand."

Actually, I don't think thats true. Where you stand remains a deep mystery to me.

Where ever it is you stand, miz3 agrees with you! I find that a bit ironic. :)

[miz3]

I take no pleasure in confronting you, Sky, on these issues. Most of these issues are not rocket science and I don't attempt to engage in many subjects that frankly, go over my head.

MOST of the issues Adventists face are straight forward and we have extremely detailed counsel on how to address them. Need an answer on some subject or issue? Most often it's in the writings of Ellen White in a clear and easy to understand manner! And if it's not clear and easy to understand, I won't have much to say on it.

Like the nature of Christ, I don't have a position about that I care to discuss in depth. He was divine, He was human, I'm OK with leaving it right there. I'm not sure WHY it seems to be SUCH a big deal to some?

Coffee? The counsel is clear, I'm "inflexible" on that. I will ignore those that present scientific data that suggests it's "OK". It is not, the scientists are wrong. If that makes me "arrogant", then I need to work on expressing my view in a softer way. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. But my view won't change, it's "inflexible" on that point.

Thank you ClubV12 that makes it extremely clear. You actually place the writings of Ellen White above the Word of the Bible.

[skyblue888]

Sky says,

"...perfectly clear as to where I stand."

Actually, I don't think thats true. Where you stand remains a deep mystery to me.

Where ever it is you stand, miz3 agrees with you! I find that a bit ironic.

Club

_____________

No that does mean that miz3 agrees with me on the issues. I believe he agrees with what I said about your attitute toward those who disagree with your views.

I do not agree with most of miz3's views any more than you do.

I referred you to my website. My stand here on clubadventist is the same as on my website. I have made it extremely clear where I stand. It remains to be proven that it is not.

sky

[skyblue888]

Here it is again, where I stand. If it is not clear or mysterious, please explain where. Thank u.

I have made my position clear to the members of this forum way before you joined it. My website at www.hidden-treasures.ca makes it perfectly clear as to where I stand. You will not find any call to separate from the church in my books because I believe and teach that in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll we are living in the time of the second call of the parable of Matt.22. Only as this final call to the bidden ones is rejected can separation be present truth. Judging by the way God's message is being received today, it won't be long before the church will have sealed her final rejection of God's mercy as did the Jews at the stoning of Stephen.

On many occasions I have shared the parable of Matt.22 and demonstrated that this parable like others is a description of the past history of ancient Israel in the days of Christ and a prophecy delineating last day events within adventism since 1844.

In my late posts I have simply tried to show that 1888 was the first call of Matt.22 which was resisted (1 S.M.234-5; T.M. 467) and that rejection fulfilled the prediction to the very letter, as recorded in the parable. And I have also attempted to show that God is still calling for that message to be received, believed, and acted upon. Only as this righteousness by faith message is received, believed, and acted upon can the people of God be clothed with the panoply of Heaven and Christ enthroned in the hearts of His people.

Between the first call and the second call is a crucifixion. In the days of Christ it was His own crucifixion. In our day it was the crucifixion of the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people. This took place in 1957 when the pillars of our faith were compromised in order to be recognized by Christendom as a Christian denomination.

All of this is now history. The second call is present truth. We are living in solemn times. We do not half understand it. Any more than the Jewish people did, we do not know the times of our visitation.

"The eye of Jesus, looking down the ages, was fixed upon our time when He said, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace.' It is still thy day, O church of God, whom He has made the depository of His law. This day of trust and probation is drawing to a close. The sun is fast westering. Can it be that it will set and thou wilt not know 'the things which belong unto thy peace!'? Must the irrovecable sentence be passed, 'But now they are hid from thine eyes.'" (Luke 19:42) E.G. White, Review & Herald, Sept.13, 1892.

This was stated in 1892 while the 1888 message was still being proclaimed. The message was presented until 1901. In that year the Lord sent this testimony: "We may have to remain in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel." Evangelism, 696.

Nothing mysterious. Mrs. White is here saying that there is a time of probation for the church today. If the church rejects the second and last call to her, she will seal her rejection of God's mercy and the call will go to the world and it will swell into the loud cry.

sky

[ClubV12]

The topic is:

Will the church fall?

Where do you stand on that Sky?

[skyblue888]

Here I stand Club:

"The eye of Jesus, looking down the ages, was fixed upon our time when He said, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace.' It is still thy day, O church of God, whom He has made the depository of His law. This day of trust and probation is drawing to a close. The sun is fast westering. Can it be that it will set and thou wilt not know 'the things which belong unto thy peace!'? Must the irrovecable sentence be passed, 'But now they are hid from thine eyes.'" E.G. White, Review & Herald, Sept.13, 1892. (Luke 19:42)

This amazing statement shows that there is a time of probation for the church today just as there was a time of probation for the Jewish church. We are living in the time of the second call of the parable of Matt.22. If this last call is rejected as it was in 1888 and the bearers of the message are character assassinated, they will be forced to leave and to go to the world with their message as the disciples did after the great persecution in A.D.34 and the message will swell into the loud cry to the world and when the mission of the Gospel is completed the judgment of the living will accomplish the final separation between the good and the evil at the time of the great final test and their destiny will be forever fixed.

sky

[ClubV12]

Well, thats about as clear as mudd Sky....

Here's my take on it:

The church will not fall, period, were done here, game over, thats my "inflexibile" position on that! Further more, that church has NOT yet fallen in the past, not in 1888 or since.

Now as others have pointed out don't sit back in your easy chair and expect the church to save you. Don't think your membership is some kind of ticket to heaven. Each of us will have to stand alone at some point, without a shred of earthly support, friends, family, church, all will be removed. For some that will come at different times and in different ways. At some point it will come to all of us.

What we DO know: The church will "APPEAR as about to fall". So folks look around at the conditions of the church, in 1888 or now, and make their judgment based on what they see. The church APPEARS about to fall (or some claim it HAS fallen).

It has NOT fallen and it does NOT APPEAR to have fallen at this time or any time in history! Some concerned members just THINK it looks that way, look again, a little higher, look to Jesus and stop looking at people.

So WHEN will it REALLY "appear about to fall"?

When the SUNDAY LAW comes into play. Until then, you aint seen nothing yet! WHEN that iron fist of a Sunday law hits Adventists, we will ALL have to choose in a very short time where we stand. People will drop out of the church in huge quantities (binding themselves into bundles to be burned). Some churches will be virtually emptied, some might be totally emptied. In short order their will be no money to run the church, the institutions, the governing bodies. No salaries for the leaders, the pastors, the workers, many of whom will also leave. "Leadership" will be all but destroyed in a very short time. There will be mass chaos, communication between the various governing bodies of leadership and down to the local churches will be few and confusing. It will basically be every church for themselves. Some churches may be locked up!

At this point it will be clear to everyone the church is about to fall, some will say it DID fall. They will then leave, nothing left to do here, the church is history. Better get out while we can. Perhaps some fanatics will leave because they fear the "wrath of God" has come upon the church!

Members will have to meet in homes. Did you catch that last sentence? MEMBERS!!! WHO? MEMBERS of the Seventh-day Adventist church, perhaps without a Pastor, or even an Elder. It might be the janitor or that "newbie" who coordinates where the MEMBERS will meet. Perhaps at the, now empty, church, perhaps in the parking lot, perhaps in a home. WHERE DID THESE TRUE FOLLOWERS OF GOD COME FROM? From the church, the Seventh-day Adventist church, the one near your home. The one you went to last Sabbath. They will soon be perfectly united and carry the third angels message to the rest of the world.

The off shoot Adventist movements and groups? They won't even see it coming until it's to late.

[ClubV12]

Consider this:

On October 21 there were 50,000 Millerites waiting for Christs return.

On October 22, there were 50 left, still standing.

[skyblue888]

Okay, thanks for sharing your view. I respect your convictions but I have a different view which I believe is more conformed to the prophetic word. According to the statements I quoted in my previous posts, the church that will appear to fall will be the church composed of those who will be character assassinated by those who reject the last call, the last opportunity to receive the 1888 message before the Sunday Law. The Sunday law will only reveal who is who. Mrs White prophesied that the leaders of God's professed church will urge Sunday keeping upon our owm members at that time.

The "established" church will not appear to fall at all. It will continue to prosper as it will join the movement for the sunday. But the "little church" composed of faithful few will be persecuted, declared to be extremists, fanatics, wild-eye irresponsible by their former brethren. etc, etc.

"The Lord has a controversy with His professed people in these last days. In this controversy men in responsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah. They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves, but they will try to keep it from others by burying it beneath the rubbish of custom and tradition. In churches and in large gatherings in the open air, ministers will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the first day of the week." Review and Herald, Vol.1, p.405.

That is why the Lord declared that "We have far more to fear from within than from without." 1 S.M.122.

So the observance of the false sabbath will be urged upon us from within but that won't come until the church has sealed her rejection of God's mercy. Probation will have closed for the "established" church but it will still be time for the honest ones in the church, who had been prevented from hearing the truth, to receive the last message of mercy as it goes to the world and swells into the loud cry.

sky

Consider this:

On October 21 there were 50,000 Millerites waiting for Christs return. On October 22, there were 50 left, still standing.

Club

_________

Exactly but these "50" will be forced out to give the loud cry to the world.

[skyblue888]

When our General Conference and its professed SDA leadership shall ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves and urge the keeping of sunday as the sabbath upon our people, then the banner of Rome will stand in the holy place, and the abonimation of desolation will have occured.

sky

[miz3]

Sky says,

"...perfectly clear as to where I stand."

Actually, I don't think thats true. Where you stand remains a deep mystery to me.

Where ever it is you stand, miz3 agrees with you! I find that a bit ironic.

Typical ClubV12. You get it wrong consistently.

I never ever said that sky and I agree on this topic being discussed on this thread.

I said that I agree with sky concerning your superiority attitude that is constantly displayed by you against those who disagree with you.

You are trying to discredit sky by saying that he agrees with miz3 and what you term miz3's "radical views".

1. That is not being fair nor are you being honest because you know perfectly well both sky and I were talking about your attitude.

2. Your views not mine are the radical ones. You are the one that is placing Ellen White and her writings above the Word of God, the Bile. I find this not only radical but disrespectful to God and His Word.

[miz3]

The Truth is the SDA Church has already fallen. SDA Church fell a long time ago.

[ClubV12]

Ellen White says the church won't fall, period, ever, it will go through to the end.

Which brings us full circle on the primary question: Who IS the "church"?

Ellen White is very clear on this (see the first post on this thread): It is the organized, sanctioned members of the Seventh-day Adventist church as she knew it then, as we know it today. Including leadership all the way to the General Conference. Who, by the way, remains today the highest authority on earth when assembled in session and represented by men from around the world. This will not change, because the church will not fall.

Off shoots, on the other hand, have many different ways of defining the "church". And they consistently feel they are right and all OTHER off shoots as well as the organized Adventist church is wrong. That, my friend, is Babylon!

[ClubV12]

Sky quotes Sister White,

"The Lord has a controversy with His professed people in these last days. In this controversy men in responsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah. They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves, but they will try to keep it from others by burying it beneath the rubbish of custom and tradition. In churches and in large gatherings in the open air, ministers will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the first day of the week." RH, March 18, 1884 par. 8

WHEN DOES THIS HAPPEN? Keep reading this SAME PARAGRAPH for the CONTEXT and TIMING of this quote:

"There are calamities on sea and land: and these calamities will increase, one disaster following close upon another; and the little band of conscientious Sabbath-keepers will be pointed out as the ones who are bringing the wrath of God upon the world by their disregard of Sunday."

RH, March 18, 1884 par. 8, CONTINUED.

You see this takes place AFTER THE SUNDAY LAW has been passed!!

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." Sister White.

The above quote is absolutely clear. This quote, without question, is addressed to the LEADERSHIP of the Seventh-day Adventist church and it's people. This is the message, she says, she would like to carry to every SDA church in America.

[ClubV12]

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body

through whom He will work. ... When anyone is drawing apart

from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping

people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human

scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them,

then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." Selected Messages, Vol. 3, pp. 17, 18.

[miz3]

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body

through whom He will work. ... When anyone is drawing apart

from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping

people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human

scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them,

then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." Selected Messages, Vol. 3, pp. 17, 18.

The SDA Church is just a .org. The True Church goes way beyond this. The True Church is not some .org.

The True Church is made up of humans who "know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent (John 17:3).

God will tell the "lost" that He "never knew them".

This is the criteria the Bible sets as to who is God's Church.

The Bible does not support a .org as The Church. Such .orgs may indeed be used as instruments but they are not The Church. You are making the same mistake the Jews made when they thought you had to be Jew to be one of God's People.

Then along comes someone like Cornelius and the Holy Spirit says this man was part of God's Church even though He was not a Jew.

ClubV12 you continue to elevate Ellen White and her writings above the Truth as stated in the Bible the Word of God.

[ClubV12]

Miz3, your essentially correct, the church is made up of humans. Sinful, struggling, some wheat, some tares, some food for worms, not all of a single fold. Scattered to some degree through out other denominations, beliefs, around the world. All Gods children, in due time will be revealed. Being a member of the Seventh-day Adventist is no gaurentee of salvation. That has always been an individual responsibility, nothings changed there.

Consider the early church for a moment. They convened a General Conference to consider questions of law and grace. Represented by men from around the world of their time. This group and it's associated churches made up the official church of it's time. The decision of the General Conference was then communicated to the churches, as it is in our time. Gods church on earth today, is a group of believers called: Seventh-day Adventists. But of course there are many followers of the Lord who are not of this church right now. To the Adventist fold, a special group, has been given a special message for the end of times, the third angels message. It's General Conference, like the Conference in Pauls time, when assembled in session, is the highest authority on earth. That has not changed, it is the same now as it was in Ellen Whites time. It is this church that will go through to the end, it will not fall.

[Lysimachus]

The Truth is the SDA Church has already fallen. SDA Church fell a long time ago.

Your reasons for the SDA Church falling, and Sky's reasons for believing what would cause the SDA Church to fall are as different as apples and oranges, or midnight to the noonday sun, or black and white.

You believe the SDA Church has fallen because it believes too much of Ellen White, not enough Bible, and will not let go of its distinctive doctrines.

Sky believes what would make the SDA Church fall is a neglect in following the counsels of Sister White which points us to Bible truths, and abandoning many of its distinctive doctrines.

You've got it all backwards Miz3.

Therefore, I don't think you really qualify to be a mediator in this debate.

[Overaged]

Over, you don't have to tell me that it is not how many years you have believed something that makes it the truth. I understand that. That's not what I am talking about here. And you know that for years I have been teaching that only the merits of Christ avail with God. I am talking about common sense here.

sky