Will the SDA church "Fall"?

[skyblue888]

That's right Lysimachus.

Your comment is much appreciated.

God bless,

sky :)

[ClubV12]

Of course Lysimachus is spot on with his analysis of Sky vs miz3 position, I heartily agree. Which is why I find it so ironic on the few occasions where it appears miz3 does agree with Sky. My apologies to any I offended in that regard.

[miz3]

Miz3, your essentially correct, the church is made up of humans. Sinful, struggling, some wheat, some tares, some food for worms, not all of a single fold. Scattered to some degree through out other denominations, beliefs, around the world. All Gods children, in due time will be revealed. Being a member of the Seventh-day Adventist is no gaurentee of salvation. That has always been an individual responsibility, nothings changed there.

Consider the early church for a moment. They convened a General Conference to consider questions of law and grace. Represented by men from around the world of their time. This group and it's associated churches made up the official church of it's time. The decision of the General Conference was then communicated to the churches, as it is in our time. Gods church on earth today, is a group of believers called: Seventh-day Adventists. But of course there are many followers of the Lord who are not of this church right now. To the Adventist fold, a special group, has been given a special message for the end of times, the third angels message. It's General Conference, like the Conference in Pauls time, when assembled in session, is the highest authority on earth. That has not changed, it is the same now as it was in Ellen Whites time. It is this church that will go through to the end, it will not fall.

We at least agree partially. That is indeed progress.

However, I will have to disagree with you on the "General Conference" concept. The "general conference" of Paul's day was not the last word nor was it the highest authority.

If you read the Book of Acts it was the Holy Spirit that confirmed/rejected the way God wanted His People to go.

For example it was the Holy Spirit that confirmed that God approved of Cornelius by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was also final when the Holy Spirit killed Ananias and Sapphira it confirmed that God was not in them. The "general conference" did not have the authority to punish Ananias and Sapphire.

It appears to me that it was the Holy Spirit that was the Highest Authority on earth.

The "general conference" of Paul's day just went along with what the Holy Spirit had already decided in very blatant terms.

I believe the Holy Spirit today confirms the Truth to those individuals and even to groups who are willing to accept the Truth given to them by God just as the Holy Spirit did in the days of Cornelius.

I can never trust a group of humans assembled on behalf of a .org because the Holy Spirit is clearly not there. I know this because of the text that states "by their fruits" we shall know them. In such convocations there is too much human manipulation present in the darkness of the background. I know this because I have seen this occur on numerous occasions at all levels of the .org.

Most importantly the Bible itself does not say that the assembled .org is the highest authority on earth. Such a statement is found no where in the Bible.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Truth is the SDA Church has already fallen. SDA Church fell a long time ago.

Your reasons for the SDA Church falling, and Sky's reasons for believing what would cause the SDA Church to fall are as different as apples and oranges, or midnight to the noonday sun, or black and white.

You believe the SDA Church has fallen because it believes too much of Ellen White, not enough Bible, and will not let go of its distinctive doctrines.

Sky believes what would make the SDA Church fall is a neglect in following the counsels of Sister White which points us to Bible truths, and abandoning many of its distinctive doctrines.

You've got it all backwards Miz3.

Therefore, I don't think you really qualify to be a mediator in this debate.

I was not trying to be a mediator. I was also not trying to agree with sky.

I was offering my own view of the question posed.

The reason the SDA Church is fallen is because they are NOT A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY CHURCH. Also per my post in response to ClubV12 the SDA Church does submit to the Authority of the Holy Spirit but submits only to the authority of human leadership based on human power.

As I said in that post, the Holy Spirit is the Highest Authority on earth. There is no other arbiter of Truth.

[miz3]

Overaged, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to the SDA Church.

[Overaged]

Overaged, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to the SDA Church.

Most private interpretations have historically tried to say this.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Overaged, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to the SDA Church.

Most private interpretations have historically tried to say this.

No, I would say that the private interpretation is on the part of the SDA Church.

[John317]

[John317]

...The "established" church will not appear to fall at all. It will continue to prosper as it will join the movement for the sunday.

But those who urge the keeping of the Sunday will have ceased to be Seventh-day Adventists. By the simple fact of urging Sunday, they will have fallen and will no longer be a part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

But the "little church" composed of faithful few will be persecuted, declared to be extremists, fanatics, wild-eye irresponsible by their former brethren. etc, etc.

The "little church" will actually be millions of people, but in comparison with the number of people who follow the beast, they will be small. Ellen White states that there will be people who fill the places of those who drop out of the true church, so that the church will not become smaller than it was before.

Originally Posted By: skyblue

So the observance of the false sabbath will be urged upon us from within but that won't come until the church has sealed her rejection of God's mercy.

Yes, we can be sure that some of our pastors and leaders will urge us to keep Sunday, but that doesn't mean all of the SDA leadership will do this. Many will fall but others will also be faithful.

I don't see the SDA church as sealing her rejection of God's mercy. I see a majority of SDAs dropping out because of persecution, and I do see our institutions being closed, but I don't believe church itself will reject God or be rejected by Him. However, I do believe that many individuals will.

Originally Posted By: skybluje

Probation will have closed for the "established" church but it will still be time for the honest ones in the church, who had been prevented from hearing the truth, to receive the last message of mercy as it goes to the world and swells into the loud cry.

I don't see SDAs as having been prevented from hearing the truth. All anyone has to do to hear the truth is study the Bible and the writings of Ellen White. We're responsible for studying these things for ourselves. We can't blame anyone else if we don't know the truth.

[John317]

The Truth is the SDA Church has already fallen. SDA Church fell a long time ago.

How do you determine this? When do you believe it fell?

[John317]

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body

through whom He will work. ... When anyone is drawing apart

from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping

people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human

scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them,

then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." Selected Messages, Vol. 3, pp. 17, 18.

AMEN!

[John317]

The SDA Church is just a .org. The True Church goes way beyond this. The True Church is not some .org.

The True Church is made up of humans who "know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent (John 17:3).

God will tell the "lost" that He "never knew them".

This is the criteria the Bible sets as to who is God's Church.

There's the "invisible church" which consists of all the saved from the time of Adam to the time when Christ returns.

So God has faithful, true people in all the various church, and some who are not yet in any church. Some have not yet accepted Christ.

However, the book of Revelation gives us the identifying marks of the church which God raises up just before Christ returns. It gives the Three Angels messages throughout the world, and it will keep the commandments of God, the faith of Jesus, and hold the testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of prophecy. The Bible describes it as rising up about the time that the USA is established and the sea-beast receives its deadly wound. I know of only one church that fits that description.

Quote:

... you continue to elevate Ellen White and her writings above the Truth as stated in the Bible the Word of God.

1 Thes. 5:19-21

Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good.

The Bible itself instructs us to test Ellen White and hold fast to that which is good. And we believe her writings are good and that she was a true prophet. So we are really only abiding by what the Bible says to do.

[John317]

Overaged, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to the SDA Church.

Matt. 16: 18 refers to all of Christ's faithful followers. It certainly includes many SDAs, but it also includes honest, sincere people in other denominations who are worshipping God the best they know how.

[John317]

.... the Holy Spirit killed Ananias and Sapphira....

The Bible doesn't teach that the Holy Spirit killed Ananias and Sapphira. If you believe it does, please quote the text which says so.

That they were killed, we can be certain, but the Bible doesn't tell us that the Holy Spirit is the One who did it. We simply know that they were killed because they lied to the Holy Spirit.

Notice how Herod was killed:

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

In the case of Anaias and Sapphira, the Bible is silent on who killed them.

[John317]

The reason the SDA Church is fallen is because they are NOT A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY CHURCH.

But where does the Bible itself teach that the true church will only accept the Bible?

The Bible says:

1 Thes. 5:19-21

Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good.

NOTE: We would be rejecting Bible truth if we were to reject the writings of Ellen White.

Rev. 12:17

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Rev. 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

NOTE: The Bible teaches that God's people near the end will hold to the Spirit of prophecy which God gives them. The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit manifested through the gift of prophecy.

[Alchemy]

Sky quotes Sister White,

"The Lord has a controversy with His professed people in these last days. In this controversy men in responsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah. They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves, but they will try to keep it from others by burying it beneath the rubbish of custom and tradition. In churches and in large gatherings in the open air, ministers will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the first day of the week." RH, March 18, 1884 par. 8

WHEN DOES THIS HAPPEN? Keep reading this SAME PARAGRAPH for the CONTEXT and TIMING of this quote:

"There are calamities on sea and land: and these calamities will increase, one disaster following close upon another; and the little band of conscientious Sabbath-keepers will be pointed out as the ones who are bringing the wrath of God upon the world by their disregard of Sunday."

RH, March 18, 1884 par. 8, CONTINUED.

You see this takes place AFTER THE SUNDAY LAW has been passed!!

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall." Sister White.

The above quote is absolutely clear. This quote, without question, is addressed to the LEADERSHIP of the Seventh-day Adventist church and it's people. This is the message, she says, she would like to carry to every SDA church in America.

I agree that the church will not and does not fall, but I have always took that to be in the message! The established body governing the church may become apostate, but as long as there is this small band of believers who refuse to compromise, God's remnant people will keep this message alive in their hearts and on the Earth.

Prov. 10:30; The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. (KJV)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Truth is the SDA Church has already fallen. SDA Church fell a long time ago.

How do you determine this? When do you believe it fell?

When it refused to preach the "Gospel". SDA decided that they would preach their own gospel a gospel that glorifies them rather than glorifies God and Jesus Christ whom God sent.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The SDA Church is just a .org. The True Church goes way beyond this. The True Church is not some .org.

The True Church is made up of humans who "know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent (John 17:3).

God will tell the "lost" that He "never knew them".

This is the criteria the Bible sets as to who is God's Church.

There's the "invisible church" which consists of all the saved from the time of Adam to the time when Christ returns.

So God has faithful, true people in all the various church, and some who are not yet in any church. Some have not yet accepted Christ.

However, the book of Revelation gives us the identifying marks of the church which God raises up just before Christ returns. It gives the Three Angels messages throughout the world, and it will keep the commandments of God, the faith of Jesus, and hold the testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of prophecy. The Bible describes it as rising up about the time that the USA is established and the sea-beast receives its deadly wound. I know of only one church that fits that description.

Quote:

... you continue to elevate Ellen White and her writings above the Truth as stated in the Bible the Word of God.

1 Thes. 5:19-21

Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good.

The Bible itself instructs us to test Ellen White and hold fast to that which is good. And we believe her writings are good and that she was a true prophet. So we are really only abiding by what the Bible says to do.

There is nothing in the Book of Revelation directly or indirectly says anything about the SDA Church or any Church (that is a .org).

I see things referring to God's people but NOTHING, BUT NOTHING that refers to the SDA Church which is just a .org.

No one is quenching the Spirit. When Ellen White agrees with the Bible and by inspiration is in sync with it then fine.

However the SDA .org has polluted Ellen White by making absolutely every thing she speaks and everything she writes as coming directly from God. This just not true. Ellen White spoke mostly from her own opinion which she honestly believed was the correct thing.

You are free John317 to believe what you want but that in and of itself does not make it true.

There is much that the SDA .org does that is not abiding by the Bible. Such as interpreting Revelation to be about them the .org. when the Book of Revelation does not even come close to describing them let alone naming them.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Overaged, Matthew 16:18 does not refer to the SDA Church.

Matt. 16: 18 refers to all of Christ's faithful followers. It certainly includes many SDAs, but it also includes honest, sincere people in other denominations who are worshipping God the best they know how.

That is not how overaged used it. I was responding to his misuse of the text.

I agree with your assessment above.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

.... the Holy Spirit killed Ananias and Sapphira....

The Bible doesn't teach that the Holy Spirit killed Ananias and Sapphira. If you believe it does, please quote the text which says so.

That they were killed, we can be certain, but the Bible doesn't tell us that the Holy Spirit is the One who did it. We simply know that they were killed because they lied to the Holy Spirit.

Notice how Herod was killed:

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

In the case of Anaias and Sapphira, the Bible is silent on who killed them.

Maybe it was the "tooth fairy"?

God and God alone is the only one who can remove life from a person. That means the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is God.

[ClubV12]

When the Sunday law hits the Adventist church folks will be forced to make very rapid decisions. Some decide this, others that. This will not appear to be any different than any other day of the week, or any other Sabbath. Life goes on, people buying, selling, building, doing yard work. Just another Sabbath morning when you go to church. No signs of any miraculous events taking place, everything seems perfectly normal.

So you get to church, on time and what do you find? A virtually empty parking lot. Do you have the keys to unlock the doors of the church? Perhaps those who normally open the church have not come, you think they might be late. But in fact, they aren't coming. What will you do? Break in? Hold your service as best you can in the parking lot? It will be very confusing at best. Perhaps you will start making cell phone calls and slowly the truth will dawn, the people aren't coming! You look around, the husband is here, but his wife isn't. The wife is here, but her husband isn't. Families have been split. Where is the Pastor? The Head Elder? The Secretary? Those with KEYS! Not here.

The events will happen very quickly, the church is disappearing, there are only a few left. Very soon after this great calamities will begin. Ever more Adventist will make their decision to leave. Some to protect their jobs, or their Social Securtity check or that investment that provides income. The HAVE to feed their family after all. Some husbands won't leave their wives and children. Some children will be forced to take a stand against their parents. While great calamities are falling all over the world, for the most part, life goes on. Just another day in the life... You will get hungry, but cannot buy food without that special government issued card. Your debit card doesn't work anymore, because you didn't sign that new agreement and get your "mark". How will you pay the bills? How will you heat the house? How will you provide for your family?

THIS is a time of very personal testing, you WILL stand alone. Your church has abandoned you, your family has taken a stand you must chose between them and your religion. You are not allowed to drive the family car, your cell phone is broken, sabatoged perhaps. Your children are pleading for you to unite with them and stop this foolish religion. You walk/hitch hike to church for Wednesday night prayer meeting or on Sabbath. There are even fewer now than last time.

Your conviction grows stronger, you will NOT turn your back on God, no matter what. Your decision is made, you WILL stay with the church regardless of the outcome. You are at once, incredibly sad, deeply afflicated of soul, torn between two worlds. Fearful of your own spiritual condition. You stand alone, every earthly support has been withdrawn. What do you do? Snap out of it! You quit looking to self, to people, you look only to God, so clearly now as never before your only hope. You realize NOW is the time you must give the final warning to anyone who will listen. You go right to work, for the Lord, to carry this message, with power.

And they start to come, strangers for the most part, but filled with the love of God. They will have to learn much in a very short time, meetings are quickly organized to teach and instruct. The once empty church begins to fill, with folks who barely know the routine of a typical Sabbath service. With them, you search the scriptures as if your life depended on it, because it does!

All around you the calamities increase to amazing proportions. Open air meetings are being held in town. Sponsored by your Pastor and other former leaders of the church, urging Adventists to stop this foolishness and support Sunday worship. For God and for country. To save the planet, to save your family, to receive your income, your "mark". Meanwhile, folks continue to do business, buy and sell, build and trade, just another day in the life for them... They will watch the lastest fire, earth quake, world calamity on CNN, if the TV still works.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The reason the SDA Church is fallen is because they are NOT A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY CHURCH.

But where does the Bible itself teach that the true church will only accept the Bible?

The Bible says:

1 Thes. 5:19-21

Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good.

NOTE: We would be rejecting Bible truth if we were to reject the writings of Ellen White.

Rev. 12:17

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Rev. 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

NOTE: The Bible teaches that God's people near the end will hold to the Spirit of prophecy which God gives them. The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit manifested through the gift of prophecy.

John317 it is your private interpretation that 1Thessalonians chapter five is referring/applying to Ellen White. You are entitled to such privately but you are entitled to use it as proof to me. In addition this text does not refer to Ellen White at all.

Second, Revelation chapter 12 and Revelation chapter 19 do not refer to the SDA .org nor do they refer to Ellen White. There is not even a scintilla of connection anywhere in those texts.

Third, anyone could use those texts to claim to be the Church and to have the prophet. The Mormans another .org indeed claim to have a prophet as do other .orgs.

There is nothing in those texts that would lead anyone reading them to think that any .org is referred to here. As you yourself admitted a few posts ago there is the "invisible church" that is the Church of God and these texts indeed do fit that very Church. The "invisible church" you yourself referred to is not a .org and fits all the criteria inherent in the Revelation texts.

When did the dragon go after the woman. Immediately after Genesis 3:15. There was no SDA .org then. There was no .org period.

The Spirit of Prophecy has been around since Genesis 3:15 also. Again, all this prophecy took place long before the SDA .org was even a gleam in the eye.

It is self arrogance that drives one to believe they are referred to by the Revelation chapter 12 and the Revelation chapter 19 texts. It is also self affirmed which calls into question the voracity of the witness by reason of "conflict of interest".

[ClubV12]

Slow down miz3, thou doest protest to much and with little substance.

You tend to fill threads with the same old agruments and largely detract from the subject at hand. This only brings confusion and makes for tiresome reading.

In short, I dub thee, "thread killer".

Why don't you start your own thread, "What is the church", move your soap box over there? Please, don't kill this thread.

Maybe John could MOVE your "church posts" to the new thread. Would you like that, miz3?

[miz3]

Slow down miz3, thou doest protest to much and with little substance.

You tend to fill threads with the same old agruments and largely detract from the subject at hand. This only brings confusion and makes for tiresome reading.

In short, I dub thee, "thread killer".

Why don't you start your own thread, "What is the church", move your soap box over there? Please, don't kill this thread.

Maybe John could MOVE your "church posts" to the new thread. Would you like that, miz3?

I was on topic but John317 asks questions that lead off topic. I was merely responding to John317.

[Alchemy]

Excellent post, ClubV12.