BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings. Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me ? I'm all for reading people's thoughts to help expand my understanding of scripture, but I can't imagine quoting one person as a divine authority.
Dr. Rich Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Ditto! As our Sabbath School came to the conclusion today, that NO ONE needs anything more than the words of Jesus to understand salvation. IF they think they do, then they are in deep trouble of being deceived even though they don't think so. The warning from Jesus about these type of people, them saying they are of God and the Jesus is the Christ, is deadly serious. The Adventists, as a group, were not started by EGW as she was just a follower of this group who had here mind altared by a thrown rock. People who think they have visions from God or even that they are listing to the Holy Spirit now and then refuse to abide by the words of Jesus are a dime a dozen.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 And yet, someone else on this board just posted this: "For those that believe in Ellen White we can gain some insight into understanding the "standard" to which we will be held. But in the end, the ONLY standard that will remain is the bible alone. For those that don't believe the Lord has given us a messenger for this time to help us understand the "standard" as applied in the bible, you have a 1,000 different churches and interpretations to choose from in what the standard means. Good luck with that, your going to need it." Clearly some people here essentially worship Ellen White, or at a minimum, will only worship God through the filter of her writings and her opinions. She was hit in the head by a rock ? Did she have a brain injury ? I have no idea what you mean by this....
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 BibleOnly says, "Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me?" I can. First of all, the Seventh-day Adventist church is not a cult. That is an issue that has been dealt with numerous times by many different theologians from many different faiths over many decades. It is universally understood and an accepted fact that Adventists are not a "cult". They are a main stream religion employing the bible and the bible alone for their established doctrine. Can you explain your own "worship" of the dead authors of the bible? Can you explain this cultish behaviour of consistently putting words into Pauls mouth and misapplying his counsel? As it concerns Ellen White, a prophet or not, I believe she was for several reasons. One is I apply the methods outlined in scripture to determine whether those who make such a claim should be believed, or not. Applying these standards to the "National Enquirer", that source comes up short. Applying these standards to a "medium" or one who speaks to the dead, they come up short. Applying these standards to Joseph Smith, the claimed prophet of the Mormons, he comes up short. Applying these principles and methods to the work of Ellen White, I find no fault. Therefore, I conclude she was indeed the Lord's inspired messenger. But there are many within the Adventist church and other churches that remain unsure or even convinced she was not. Thats OK, belief in Ellen White as a prophet is NOT A TEST OF FAITH for an Adventist to become a member of the church. Or for any Christian of any faith, as far as that goes. Luther did not recognize John, the author of Revelation, as an inspired writer and fought to keep that book out of the cannon! As is often the case, a prophet is not recognized during their lifetime and beyond in some cases. But over time, their work, having been tested and carefully considered, still stands as "inspired". Such I believe will be the case with Ellen White, the nature and value of her work becomes more clear with each passing decade. It HAS stood the test of time and I know it WILL stand the test of time. What I posted earlier still stands, with no apology. For those that ACCEPT Ellen White, she offers significant insight to understanding the bible. For those who do not, you have the choice of a 1,000 different churches to choose from. That is not "worship" or "cult" statement, just simple facts. Choose who you will believe for your interpretation of scripture. I choose NOT to believe BibleOnly, I think his interpretations are grossly confused. I choose not to believe the Catholics. Maybe some will choose to believe Scientology. I trust Ellen White, you can trust who ever you want. Dr. Rich chooses to NOT believe Paul and many other bible authors. We will all make a choice, choose wisely.
12tribes Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 This site has 12 tests of a prophet and tests Ellen White 12 Tests of a Prophet Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 The word 'cult' is bandied about enough to be meaningless. In this world today, read an anti cult site, and you'll find that it means 'any church that influences the way people live so they are not like everyone else'. What I meant by it was, a group that claims to have access to hidden knowledge that no-one else outside the group can see and has it's own sacred writings apart from the Bible. "Can you explain your own "worship" of the dead authors of the bible? " The bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit to give us the words we need to follow Jesus. That is why I obey the Bible. I don't believe that God waited 2000 years to provide an addendum. "Can you explain this cultish behaviour of consistently putting words into Pauls mouth and misapplying his counsel?" Now you're just being silly "As it concerns Ellen White, a prophet or not, I believe she was for several reasons." This is the core issue. 1 Cor 14 says we can all prophecy. There are no 'special' prophets who give us a message no-one else could give us, since the bible was sealed and provided to the world to know how to know God. "One is I apply the methods outlined in scripture to determine whether those who make such a claim should be believed, or not." This is a circular argument. You believe what she said, therefore she is a prophet. " Applying these standards to Joseph Smith, the claimed prophet of the Mormons, he comes up short. " They would disagree, using the same arguments you use. "Thats OK, belief in Ellen White as a prophet is NOT A TEST OF FAITH for an Adventist to become a member of the church. Or for any Christian of any faith, as far as that goes." But it is clear from the post I repeated above that some regard her words as the one path to salvation. "Luther did not recognize John, the author of Revelation, as an inspired writer and fought to keep that book out of the cannon!" Well, I am always unconvinced that it matters what anyone in the past did, proves anything apart from their humanity. "As is often the case, a prophet is not recognized during their lifetime and beyond in some cases. But over time, their work, having been tested and carefully considered, still stands as "inspired". Such I believe will be the case with Ellen White, the nature and value of her work becomes more clear with each passing decade. It HAS stood the test of time and I know it WILL stand the test of time." Only within the body of people who choose to believe her. Same as Joseph Smith. Same as David Koresh, really. Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: I guess you could argue this is referring only to Revelation, but while I think John meant it that way, I think God intended for this to appear in the bible and refer to the whole. It's my belief that once the New Testament books were written and compiled, that God had provided a message that explans how Jesus made His plan complete until His return, and there's nothing of value to add. Prophecy is the expounding of the words that God has said, not adding to them. If Ellen White did that, the question remains, why do you need her as a 'special' messenger, can't you read the Bible for yourself ? If she was right, can't you read her writings, learn from them, and use what you learn to present what you believe from the bible alone ? The core question is, when I ask people to discuss the Bible with me, why do they so often revert to quoting Ellen White ?
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 This site has 12 tests of a prophet and tests Ellen White 12 Tests of a Prophet I'm not going to be churlish and point out how she fails these tests. Instead, I will ask, on what basis does the Bible indicate that there are 12 tests that we should apply to prophets in this age, and thus elevate some people as prophets above others in the church ? Why can't we just read the Bible alone, and regard other people's writings as opinions we can compare to scripture and perhaps learn from, without ever deciding that someone is 'a prophet' and therefore everything they say is beyond reproach ? 1 Cor 14 says we can all prophecy and that when someone does, those who listen should judge ( indicating that the prophets don't always get it right, not that some are good and some bad prophets all the time ). The rest, is a fantasy.
12tribes Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: 12tribes This site has 12 tests of a prophet and tests Ellen White 12 Tests of a Prophet I'm not going to be churlish and point out how she fails these tests. Instead, I will ask, on what basis does the Bible indicate that there are 12 tests that we should apply to prophets in this age, and thus elevate some people as prophets above others in the church ? Why can't we just read the Bible alone, and regard other people's writings as opinions we can compare to scripture and perhaps learn from, without ever deciding that someone is 'a prophet' and therefore everything they say is beyond reproach ? 1 Cor 14 says we can all prophecy and that when someone does, those who listen should judge ( indicating that the prophets don't always get it right, not that some are good and some bad prophets all the time ). The rest, is a fantasy. The Bible says that Israel coming out of Egypt was lead by a prophet. The Bible says that Israel was a type of the church in the last days. I believe Ellen White to be a prophet but, I base my doctrines on the Bible, Ellen White helps to understand it better. Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 BibleOnly says, "But it is clear from the post I repeated above that some regard her words as the one path to salvation." It is NOT at all "clear", this is one more proof of why YOUR interpretation of scripture is confused and in error. As I stated earlier we are judged by the BIBLE and the BIBLE alone, not Ellen White. Not some preacher, not some cult leader, not some individual explaining his interpretation. By the BIBLE, only, period. Is THAT clear enough? We ALL read other authors, speak with friends, consider other opinions to arrive at our interpretation of scripture. It is an easy thing to say, "I rely ONLY on the Holy Spirit for my interpretation." Uh,,, that is misunderstanding HOW the Holy Spirit works! Knowledge of the Lord often comes THROUGH other people. A preacher, a teacher, a mother, a neighbor. The Lord speaks THROUGH people as much as He speaks directly to you personally. You WILL employ SOMEONE, some source for your understanding. Ellen White is my favorite author, I employ her work often to understand that by which I will be judged, THE BIBLE ONLY, BibleOnly.
Dr. Rich Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Ask yourself this question: What if EGW was the one prophesied about in Rev. 2:18-25? What then? And--what IF Paul was one of those prophesied about in Rev. 2:2? What then?
12tribes Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Ask yourself this question: What if EGW was the one prophesied about in Rev. 2:18-25? What then? And--what IF Paul was one of those prophesied about in Rev. 2:2? What then? We don't want 'what if' we want certainty Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Dr. Rich Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Then give me a good reason why these two warnings are in Revelation 2 if not to be understood by those with ears to understand so that they ARE CERTAIN OF THE TRUTH?
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 I choose not to believe Dr. Rich as a counselor, I think his ideas are as confused as BibleOnly's. So what? I don't particularly care for a whole bunch of "mega church" Pastors who have a large and popular following either. Theres a TON of people I prefer to NOT seriously consider their counsel. And yet, I don't totally dimiss anyones counsel! Because you have to be aware that maybe, just maybe, God has a message for you that is being delivered from the last source you would ever consider!!! The Holy Spirit works in strange ways like that. Obviously, you trust some counselors more than others. Test all things, hold fast that which is true. Did the testing, I trust Ellen White's counsel by comparing it to my understanding of biblical interpretation. By comparing to the counsel of many, in which there is safety. She is not the "only" source, she is one of many. I do believe she is an inspired source, for those that do not, that doesn't mean you have to totally reject her counsel. She authored over 50 books, lived a long and spiritual life, it would be a mistake to "write her off" due to prejudice. She just might be the last source you ever thought you would find good counsel from! The Holy Spirit works that way, who can know what source may be employed next by the Spirit?
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 The Bible says that Israel coming out of Egypt was lead by a prophet. The Bible says that Israel was a type of the church in the last days. I believe Ellen White to be a prophet but, I base my doctrines on the Bible, Ellen White helps to understand it better. How very convoluted. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would help us to understand the Bible. This is true, when I read the Bible before I spoke in tongues, there were things I did not understand, and when I did, it was like a flood of answers to those scriptures, which all became quite clear and obvious from that time.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 I choose not to believe Dr. Rich as a counselor, I think his ideas are as confused as BibleOnly's. So what? I don't particularly care for a whole bunch of "mega church" Pastors who have a large and popular following either. Theres a TON of people I prefer to NOT seriously consider their counsel. And yet, I don't totally dimiss anyones counsel! Because you have to be aware that maybe, just maybe, God has a message for you that is being delivered from the last source you would ever consider!!! The Holy Spirit works in strange ways like that.
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 This forum has heard from MANY people who make the claim that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them for their understanding of scripture. This is a serious delusion. It is NOT biblical. In the counsel of many there is safety. God does not deliver to "one man" alone and by himself an understanding of all things. The early church met in a counsel of many to come to an agreement on the issue of circumcision. The Adventist church was not founded by one person, but a coming together of men, the counsel of many, to consider and search the scriptures together. THAT is the biblical way. It is a dangerous path to think that you and you alone can come to an understanding of all scripture by yourself. If that were the case, we wouldn't need preachers, teachers, society or anyone else. Doesn't work that way! There were many good spiritual men that came before Ellen White. Men alive in her time, that counseled HER, men that TAUGHT her! Some of these men had divine guidance, in my opinion. The point is, truth comes through many sources. ALL truth expounds on the bible, explains it, enlightens it. Some folks are better at doing that than others.
Dr. Rich Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 I choose not to believe Dr. Rich as a counselor, I think his ideas are as confused as BibleOnly's. So what? I don't particularly care for a whole bunch of "mega church" Pastors who have a large and popular following either. Theres a TON of people I prefer to NOT seriously consider their counsel. And yet, I don't totally dimiss anyones counsel! Because you have to be aware that maybe, just maybe, God has a message for you that is being delivered from the last source you would ever consider!!! The Holy Spirit works in strange ways like that. Obviously, you trust some counselors more than others. Test all things, hold fast that which is true. Did the testing, I trust Ellen White's counsel by comparing it to my understanding of biblical interpretation. By comparing to the counsel of many, in which there is safety. She is not the "only" source, she is one of many. I do believe she is an inspired source, for those that do not, that doesn't mean you have to totally reject her counsel. She authored over 50 books, lived a long and spiritual life, it would be a mistake to "write her off" due to prejudice. She just might be the last source you ever thought you would find good counsel from! The Holy Spirit works that way, who can know what source may be employed next by the Spirit? Suit yourself, but you still refused to answer by questions. Is it because you can't? Perhaps I should have asked if you understand Revelation at all? If not, do you want to?
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Dr. Rich, frankly, it's because I choose not to bother to answer your question. I have tested and considered your theology, I find it severely lacking and clearly confused. You are incapable of rendering a bible passage with a correct interpretation, in my opinion.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 This forum has heard from MANY people who make the claim that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them for their understanding of scripture. This is a serious delusion. It is NOT biblical. In the counsel of many there is safety. God does not deliver to "one man" alone and by himself an understanding of all things.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 Suit yourself, but you still refused to answer by questions. Is it because you can't? Perhaps I should have asked if you understand Revelation at all? If not, do you want to? People here are waking up to the need to ignore you. So long as you reject most of the New Testament, we have no common basis to talk to you, and so long as your examples of Paul contradicting Jesus are flat out ridiculous, we have no reason to consider your position beyond that.
12tribes Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Then give me a good reason why these two warnings are in Revelation 2 if not to be understood by those with ears to understand so that they ARE CERTAIN OF THE TRUTH? You brought the subject up you tell me what you are on about Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 Dr. Rich, frankly, it's because I choose not to bother to answer your question. I have tested and considered your theology, I find it severely lacking and clearly confused. You are incapable of rendering a bible passage with a correct interpretation, in my opinion. I think it goes deeper than that. There are people here of whom I hold the same opinion, very confused and unable to clearly read the Bible. Yet, they accept it as truth, giving us a solid foundation for discussion. Dr Rich rejects most of the New Testament, which means we may as well talk to a Buddhist or a Muslim, either way, there's no firm foundation of shared belief to base a discussion on. Of what value is it to quote the New Testament to someone who does not believe it is true ?
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Then give me a good reason why these two warnings are in Revelation 2 if not to be understood by those with ears to understand so that they ARE CERTAIN OF THE TRUTH? You brought the subject up you tell me what you are on about I think you'll find that just like the SDA have blinkers on and think the word 'commandment' in the NT always refers to the Sabbath, Dr Rich will assume that any warning in the Bible, is a warning not to trust Paul. Even though Peter certainly trusted Paul, and said as much in his letters.
12tribes Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: 12tribes The Bible says that Israel coming out of Egypt was lead by a prophet. The Bible says that Israel was a type of the church in the last days. I believe Ellen White to be a prophet but, I base my doctrines on the Bible, Ellen White helps to understand it better. How very convoluted. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would help us to understand the Bible. This is true, when I read the Bible before I spoke in tongues, there were things I did not understand, and when I did, it was like a flood of answers to those scriptures, which all became quite clear and obvious from that time. People learn from those who know the Bible while it is the Holy Spirit who opens the understanding, Like Phillip and the eunuch, Jesus used the scripture on the way to Emmaus and so on Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Author Posted December 17, 2011 People learn from those who know the Bible while it is the Holy Spirit who opens the understanding, Like Phillip and the eunuch, Jesus used the scripture on the way to Emmaus and so on And God always makes sure there are people in His church able to expound the scriptures. He doesn't send one special person to teach the whole world, He sends each church someone who can teach the truth from the Bible, if that church is willing to listen.
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