Ellen White

[ClubV12]

BibleOnly, I think you are still wrestling with the concept of using Ellen White as a counselor. There is no requirement from the Adventist church or anyone else to consider that counsel as inspired. Her counsel speaks for itself, I find it quite enlightening. I also find many other authors, scholars, preachers and teachers enlightening. I don't hold any "one" person above another in that regard.

From my own personal study of many different sources I have simply found that Ellen White is extraordinary in her ability to clairify the word. I do believe she was divinely inspired, in the same way I believe the biblical authors were inspired. But that does not mean I place her work above or even equal to the biblical authors. She herself counseled AGAINST DOING SO!!! She consistently points people BACK to the bible and the bible only as our reference point. To me, this is one of the tests of a true prophet, that they build upon that which we already have! That they humble themselves to the word, NEVER raising their work above those who came before them. I consider her an excellent source of information, then again, I consider a good friend of mine, a Godly spiritual man, also a good source of information to help me understand my walk with Jesus.

I was once a Mormon, the problem with Joseph Smith I had was that HIS work IS held above the bible!!! The bible is tested against HIS work, and if error is found in the bible (as some say) the Smiths work is considered as "correcting the mistake". This is a serious flaw for one claiming to be a prophet.

Commandments, there are ten. They still apply. They weren't done away with. This is a doctrinal point, it is bible supported. I happen to believe it, some don't. It is what it is.

[Dr. Rich]

Then you have not read the Pseudo Climintine Homly 16-19 where Peter questions Paul as to why he he said he gets superiour truth from his revelations, then why are his words not the same as what Jesus taught. Go read it yourself! Sure, it's not found in the NT, and the reason is because if it was, then all of Paul's words would have to be thrown out!

Try to find ONE thing that Jesus said and taught that was the same as what Paul taught--come on--try it! You can't!

Didn't the prophet for Islam have the same problem?

[BibleOnly]

Dr Rich, I repeat, I am flat out not interested in your twisted and confused ideas. We have no common basis for discussion as you reject the idea that God could deliver His message to this generation in an easy to find and understand way.

ClubV12, the fact is, some people here plainly regard EW as equal to, or above, the Bible.

I have never claimed the commandments were done away with, you return to this argument because no-one here has been able to reply to the actual point that I keep making. Every SDA I have known does this, to argue that the sabbath was not moved, or done away with, when I claim neither to be true.

[ClubV12]

"Pseudo Climintine Homly 16-19"

I guess some would trust that source, I don't. I trust the "committee" that established the KJV and what to include and what not to include as doing a good work. I believe they were led of the Holy Spirit. I believe, because there were human beings involved, that end result is not perfect in every regard. But it is certainly "good enough" for all to find the path to salvation.

BibleOnly says,

"ClubV12, the fact is, some people here plainly regard EW as equal to, or above, the Bible."

I have YET to see that ANYWHERE on this site, EVER!!! Can you show a post that supports what you call "fact" on this matter? I don't think so, it remains your OPINION. My opinion is that you are entirely mistaken on this issue. One FACT for sure is this: Ellen White herself NEVER made that claim and consistently counseled against it!!!

[BibleOnly]

" I trust the "committee" that established the KJV and what to include and what not to include as doing a good work. I believe they were led of the Holy Spirit"

I agree, I probably do not agree with their doctrines, but I believe God used them to get the Bible to us. The KJV was not the first Bible, nor do I believe that this is the group who decided what to include and not to include, unless they were the first to exclude to apocrypha ?

"I believe, because there were human beings involved, that end result is not perfect in every regard. But it is certainly "good enough" for all to find the path to salvation."

Yes, for this reason, I think there is no such thing as a 'useless' Bible translation.

"I have YET to see that ANYWHERE on this site, EVER!!! Can you show a post that supports what you call "fact" on this matter? I don't think so, it remains your OPINION. My opinion is that you are entirely mistaken on this issue."

Perhaps I am misunderstand when people post her writings without scripture as examples of great truth, or when I am talking about the Bible to someone and they quote her to me and not the Bible ?

What about the guy who said that I can't find the truth because there's 1000 religions and without EW as a guide, I can't find the right one ?

[ClubV12]

"Perhaps I am misunderstand when people post her writings without scripture as examples of great truth, or when I am talking about the Bible to someone and they quote her to me and not the Bible?"

I see your point in that regard. But many of us quote other people and sources when it comes to biblical interpretation. I make no apology for quoting Ellen Whites counsel concerning interpretation of any given bible verse. I respect and consider her counsel as authoritive. You may do the same with some other author, as many do.

NO WAY did I mean to imply you can't find the truth without Ellen White in any of those 1,000 churches out there to search through. Many certainly DO find the truth and certainly do follow Jesus with a sincere heart who never heard of Adventists or Ellen White! Ellen White herself makes this clear, as does the bible. Many sheep have I that are not of this fold. I myself searched through many churches, God led me to the Adventist church. I DO believe if you, BibleOnly, are still truly searching for truth, you will find that speaking in tongues is a delusion. There are a 1,000 churches you might want to search through. For myself, I believe I have indeed found the truth in the Adventist church. It just makes more biblical sense than any other church I ever looked at.

[BibleOnly]

"I DO believe if you, BibleOnly, are still truly searching for truth, you will find that speaking in tongues is a delusion."

This seems self evident, if I were searching for truth, I'd have to assume I had not found it. I would need an explanation of what else I'd need, having been empowered to obey the Gospel and live by God's standards. Why would I want something different to that, and especially why would I go back to the thing that was unable to give me the power to overcome my addictions ? Of course, everyone thinks God led them to their church. I value the fact that I was able to test other ideas and find them lacking, giving me a better foundation than 'I like this church' or 'things worked for me here' on which to state that I found the true Gospel. Of course, all of this hinges on the Bible backing up what I say, which I still think it does, every discussion I've had here has had loose ends that no-one would wrap up.

[Windsor]

Ask yourself this question: What if EGW was the one prophesied about in Rev. 2:18-25? What then?

And--what IF Paul was one of those prophesied about in Rev. 2:2? What then?

I hate to even respond to a question as ludicrous as this. For one, I'm surprised you believe Revelation to be inspired. Can you please tell me where Ellen White ever taught people to commit sexual immorality and eat food sacrificed to animals (Ellen was a vegetarian you know). After that, please let me know at what point Ellen White ever referred to herself as a prophet.

And for the second question, Revelation 2:2 is addressed to the church of Ephesus. Did you also know that Paul was one of the founders of said church? You can read about it in Acts (not sure if you consider that canon). So Jesus is commending people who found Him through Paul for testing Paul and finding him false? I cannot find the logic in that statement.

And what did you say you were a doctor in? I actually know an SDA MD Dr. Rich but I would be surprised if you were related.

[BibleOnly]

No, he rejects Acts, and the book of Luke.

[ClubV12]

"Of course, everyone thinks God led them to their church."

That can't be said of "everyone", I met quite a few folks like myself looking for sound doctrine and didn't find it in many churches.

I also believe the Lord is shielding some folks from knowing present truth because of various road blocks they have that would prevent them from following that path at this time in their lives. Truth is revealed to us when we are not only searching, but in a position to make an intelligent choice and do something about it.

We are only held accountable for that which we understand to be truth and have a made a clear choice to accept or reject it. BUT, we are also held accountable for that which we COULD have known, but rejected to study when we had the chance.

[BibleOnly]

"That can't be said of "everyone", I met quite a few folks like myself looking for sound doctrine and didn't find it in many churches."

OK, everyone settled in a church, then. They can't all be 'led by the Spirit' to ideas that contradict each other.

"I also believe the Lord is shielding some folks from knowing present truth because of various road blocks they have that would prevent them from following that path at this time in their lives. Truth is revealed to us when we are not only searching, but in a position to make an intelligent choice and do something about it."

I don't think anyone is ever worse off for knowing God, or following Him.

[ClubV12]

IT's basically true no one is worse off knowing and following God, but the reality is God knows that some trials are to difficult for us. That is why no one is tested above their ability to overcome.

A skeptic might argue that those who burned at the stake for their refusal to stop following the convictions of their heart were "worse off". But a Christian see's beyond death.

[BibleOnly]

" but the reality is God knows that some trials are to difficult for us. That is why no one is tested above their ability to overcome."

1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

This is a powerful verse. I don't think this means God protects us from temptation, so much as 'greater is He that is in thee, than he that is in the world', leaving us with no excuse if we falter.

[ClubV12]

Yup, thats the point, God knows what each of us can and cannot overcome at any moment in time. It is a powerful verse. I see my weakness in some areas and have specifically prayed that God would shield me when and if such temptations come my way. I KNOW I am to weak to resist. I am careful to work WITH Him in not placing myself in a position where I bring that temptation upon myself.

If you CHOOSE to place yourself on Satans ground, you loose the protection of His angels and the Holy Spirit and reap your just reward, "failure". An alcoholic needs to stay out of bars, not expect a "miracle" to see him through when he chooses to go inside.

[BibleOnly]

I don't think it means 'my strength is sometimes not enough for you, but I can shield you from those situations'. People DO get overwhelmed and leave the church, but James says they are not tempted by God, but 'overcome by their own lusts and enticed'. I see this verse as another reminder that we need, in the moment, to remember that God gives us enough strength to overcome, and we just need to use it. I do think we need to also avoid situations that are occasions to sin, we can't just put ourselves within the reach of sin and blame God when we take the opportunity. But, I do think that whatever befalls us, God always is able to make a way out, leaving us responsible for our own actions and choices.

[ClubV12]

Actually, I never had a drinking problem myself, thats just one example I used. It could be a gay persons conviction he/she needs to change, for whatever reason. I would not counsel them, or anyone, that the temptation will be suddenly and forever removed. In working WITH God, I just recognize I need to BE where He wants me to BE at all times. Now if I find myself in a position where I didn't CHOOSE to be there and the temptation is fierce as a result, my only hope is the power of God to overcome.

[BibleOnly]

Well, homosexuality is wired in the brain, it's not a choice. For that reason, it's an excellent example of the reason that God changes us in an instant and doesn't ask us to change over time. How does one become 'less gay' ? How often can one pursue gay relationships in the church before it's not OK ?

[Stan]

OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings. Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me ? I'm all for reading people's thoughts to help expand my understanding of scripture, but I can't imagine quoting one person as a divine authority.

What are you expecting? If you go to a Lutheran Forum would you expect them to talk about Luther and his comments and commentary?

>>> Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me'

Show me where people worship her!!

No one is stopping you from talking about the Bible... or any of the Biblical Teaching of Adventism.

[BibleOnly]

What are you expecting? If you go to a Lutheran Forum would you expect them to talk about Luther and his comments and commentary?

[ClubV12]

Homosexuality is no different in "being wired in the brain" as any other cultivated or inherited tendency to sin. This of course assumes that an active gay life style IS "sin", some say it's not. In that respect, an example that won't work for them, but whatever....

A child being born of a drug addict is an addict the moment he/she is born. An inherited tendency toward evil. We all have certain traits and tendencies toward sin that are "wired in the brain" because of 1,000's of years of sin in man kind.

In my opinion it offers people false hope to tell them all those tendencies can vanish overnight by accepting the Spirit and speaking in tongues. Did it happen to you? I believe it did!!! Was it from God? I don't believe it was!!! I truly believe you are living under a delusion by the evil one and claiming others can experience the same thing. Sadly, I believe this is a lie and is NOT in harmony with scripture. I say that in as loving a way as possible, but it's the straight truth.

"....while they do not preach the Gospel, they also do not quote Luther directly as you guys do EW."

Thats because while Luther was certainly a man of God and used by Him, he was not a "prophet" for THIS time. He STARTED a revolution Ellen White has continued. The Lutherans pretty much stopped growing when Luther died...

[BibleOnly]

"Homosexuality is no different in "being wired in the brain" as any other cultivated or inherited tendency to sin"

That is utterly untrue. No-one is a thief or a murderer from birth.

"A child being born of a drug addict is an addict the moment he/she is born."

Yes, that is true. But, the drugs are evil, being an addict is not evil in the sense of doing evil, but in the sense of evil controlling you.

"We all have certain traits and tendencies toward sin that are "wired in the brain" because of 1,000's of years of sin in man kind."

No, we all have the tendency to do what we think is right, until God shows us better.

"In my opinion it offers people false hope to tell them all those tendencies can vanish overnight by accepting the Spirit and speaking in tongues"

If you're right, my church life would be littered with people who accepted this false hope and fell away when it did not transpire. This is not my experience.

"Was it from God? I don't believe it was!!! I truly believe you are living under a delusion by the evil one and claiming others can experience the same thing."

I can only keep pointing out that Jesus was accused in the same way and pointed out that satan cannot cast out his own works. And, of course, that I asked God to deliver me, be it over time, or instantly, and it did not work, until I spoke in tongues.

"Sadly, I believe this is a lie and is NOT in harmony with scripture. I say that in as loving a way as possible, but it's the straight truth."

I have pointed out again today the questions that your reading of the Bible poses, very big questions like, why do you think not all Christians have faith ? Nevertheless, I appreciate that you're being sincere, just as I am being sincere and not trying to upset you, when I tell you that until you have the Holy Spirit, you may see peer pressure and Bible standards change your natural life, but you are still not saved.

"Thats because while Luther was certainly a man of God and used by Him, he was not a "prophet" for THIS time. He STARTED a revolution Ellen White has continued. The Lutherans pretty much stopped growing when Luther died..."

Well, all of this is predicated on not trusting Paul when he said that everyone is a prophet, but that we should judge what they say against the Bible, not write it down and use it as our tool to understand the Bible.

[ClubV12]

Apparently you don't believe in the principle of cultivated and inherited tendencies toward evil. Be that bank robbing or mudering, I do believe in that. I do believe such tendencies are "hard wired" in the brain, but it's not a point worth dwelling over.

The heart is deceitfully wicked, people don't just naturally "do what they think is right", they do what they think they can get away with!!! Without upsetting society, the law, the family or anybody else that might harm them in some way for their actions. Every man has a measure of faith, small though it be, that tells him/her it is not right to murder, to steal, to lie. But the conscience can become "seared" as Paul put it, and the small voice of the Holy Spirit not heard. Evil grows within us. We see a glimpse of what man is capabale of when all restraints are removed, where there is no law and order. The human heart is desperately wicked....

Satan has a counterfit for everything God has done. Tongues, as you understand them, is just another skillfully done counterfit. Many have fallen for his lies, he has had thousands of years to perfect his skill and craft of deception.

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: Stanta

What are you expecting? If you go to a Lutheran Forum would you expect them to talk about Luther and his comments and commentary?

I was brought up a Lutheran, and while they do not preach the Gospel, they also do not quote Luther directly as you guys do EW.

Originally Posted By: Stanta

>>> Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me'

Show me where people worship her!!

No one is stopping you from talking about the Bible... or any of the Biblical Teaching of Adventism.

My point is that people reply to the Bible with the writings of EW, as if they are of the same value. EW needs to line up with the bible. The Bible doesn't have any other authority over it.

When you are at an Adventist Forum they are going to discuss things that way.

Have another forum, not that active www.theologyreview.com that there is pretty much no EGW, and I encourage zero EGW

[BibleOnly]

"Apparently you don't believe in the principle of cultivated and inherited tendencies toward evil. Be that bank robbing or mudering, I do believe in that. I do believe such tendencies are "hard wired" in the brain, but it's not a point worth dwelling over."

Is there any evidence, either scientific or in the Bible, for this ?

"The heart is deceitfully wicked, people don't just naturally "do what they think is right", they do what they think they can get away with!!!"

'there is a way that seems right to man', is what the Bible says. Non Christians have a sense of social responsibility, the church does not own that.

" Every man has a measure of faith, small though it be, that tells him/her it is not right to murder, to steal, to lie. But the conscience can become "seared" as Paul put it, and the small voice of the Holy Spirit not heard."

The conscience becomes seared only if we've been given a heart of flesh, that is, he is talking about Christians who return to sin, not people who have never known better.

"Satan has a counterfit for everything God has done.

Sounds so convincing, but where does the Bible say it ? Why does Satan's counterfeit exist, but God's real version does not any more ? Why does the 'counterfeit' line up with the descriptions in the Bible ? How does Satan answer when someone calls on God ?

"Many have fallen for his lies, he has had thousands of years to perfect his skill and craft of deception."

All satan has are lies, such as the lie that he is so powerful that he can answer people asking God to save them.

[ClubV12]

"Non Christians have a sense of social responsibility..."

That wasn't the case in Noah's time, didn't happen in Sodoms time, didn't happen when the Romans surrounded the Jews in Jerusalem. Doesn't happen during a riot, or war, or I could go on and on.

When the angels holding back the winds of strife let go, just before the Lord comes, we will have all of the above. The TRUE nature of man will be revealed, it will be the ugliest thing this planet has ever seen. As in the days on Noah, so shall the days of the coming of the Lord be.