Ellen White

[BibleOnly]

"That wasn't the case in Noah's time, didn't happen in Sodoms time, didn't happen when the Romans surrounded the Jews in Jerusalem. Doesn't happen during a riot, or war, or I could go on and on."

It's happening right now. It may evaporate in times of crisis, sometimes, but it is generally there.

" The TRUE nature of man will be revealed, it will be the ugliest thing this planet has ever seen. As in the days on Noah, so shall the days of the coming of the Lord be."

That just means people will live their lives expecting this system to go on forever, and it will end suddenly. It doesn't mean huge amounts of social strife. It means a society full of problems, it doesn't mean EVERYONE is violent.

[ClubV12]

Revelation speaks of the destruction of the earth and a total collapse of society world wide. The angels withdrawing protection and letting man become who he really is. A follower of Christ or a follower of Satan. There will only be two groups, one horrid and repulsive with every possible sin on display. The other protected ONLY by the power of God from the forces of evil.

The group that follows God will be those that keep His commandments. Not those who cry, "Lord we have worked miracles in your name." Their answer will be, "I know you not."

[BibleOnly]

If these plagues are both literal and reserved for the last days, then Jesus lied when He said we should watch for His return, because He would come unexpectedly.

[ClubV12]

The plauges ARE literal and in no way reveal the day or hour of His coming. Christians who may be waiting for the "sign" of the plagues to "get ready" will find themselves wanting and unprepared. It will be to late to "get ready", that decision, the character developement required to live through the plagues is taking place right now! Is the character your developing now, today, worthy? Or will your lamp go out and you will be left in darkness? TODAY is the day to choose to follow the Lord, and tommorow, it starts anew.

A crisis does not enhance our character, it REVEALS it, it doesn't change it. It simply shows who we have been all along, on a daily basis. TODAY were you honest in every detail in your life dealing with your fellow man? Did you exaggerate? Did you lie, not with your mouth, but with a nod of the head, a suggestive movement of the hand? A true, but misleading statement designed to cover the truth even slightly? Such acts are a lie, straight up, no half way about it.

Did you steal by witholding something that could have, should have paid to someone or to the Lord? Stealing is stealing, there is no excuse, no subtle distinction, you did, or you didn't.

Did you speak a harsh word in haste or frustration? If you know you did, you know your not perfect! The process of sanctification continues, daily, in the little things you do that develop the character required for the BIG things when they come. And they will surely come in due time. If not THEE plagues in your life time, some other event that will shake you to the core and reveal your true character, not suddenly "change it". He that is faithful in the little things, will be faithful in the big things.

Do the dishes, not half way, do it right, do your job to the best of your ability and IMPROVE on that everyday.

[BibleOnly]

Well, I'm not sure the Bible says any of that. I agree a Christian should always be honest, but I think questions like 'did we pray in the Spirit' and 'did we seek to spread the Gospel' matter more than 'did you nod your head the wrong way'. I do agree we should see to live blameless lives.

[ClubV12]

All of it matters. A lie is a lie, whether you nod your head and wave your hand to express some meaning that you know is incorrect. The fact that you worked miracles and preached the gospel won't "cover" your sin of lieing. ANY sin, you knowlingly commit and do not seek forgiveness for, seek to overcome from, remains on the record. The ONLY thing that can cover sin is the righteousness of Christ. Doing "good works", preaching and teaching while committing known sin and being unrepentant puts you in the group of, "I know you not."

The KEY here is CHOOSING to commit sin when you KNOW it IS sin. When you do that you reject His offer of free salvation. You make a deliberate choice. Do that long enough, and your conscience will be seared to the point where in your deluded state you will say, "Well, it aint no big deal." Well, it IS a "big deal", you just threw away the free gift!

You are NOT "once saved, always saved", you constantly have to make a choice the rest of your life. At any time you can choose sin over God and suffer the consequences of that choice.

[BibleOnly]

"The fact that you worked miracles and preached the gospel won't "cover" your sin of lieing"

Well, I assume you're not accusing me of lying

I don't disagree, but I think you've got the emphasis wrong. I'd rather be a Christian who lied from time to time, than someone who never lied but never prayed or talked about Jesus. Of course, I am to both never lie, and to do those things. And I agree, when, for example, you go to a store, and get home and realise you were not charged for everything you bought, to not call them to tell them is stealing, although I don't think it's the *same* as putting something under your jumper and walking out with it, it's still not an option. But, non Christians would also sometimes tell the truth in that situation, I am sure.

" ANY sin, you knowlingly commit and do not seek forgiveness for, seek to overcome from, remains on the record."

I don't think I need to keep track of my mistakes and seek forgiveness for them individually. I do think I need to keep thinking about what mistakes I make and trying to always do better.

"You are NOT "once saved, always saved", you constantly have to make a choice the rest of your life. At any time you can choose sin over God and suffer the consequences of that choice."

I agree in part, we are not 'always saved', we have a choice. The Bible says

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It really comes down to what 'sin wilfully' means, and as always in the New Testament, the answer is to not even go there, to stay as far away from that situation as we can. The bible does also say

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I don't think that 'confess our sins' means to keep a list, so much as to admit we're not yet perfect, and do all we can to try to be.

[Gerr]

Ditto! As our Sabbath School came to the conclusion today, that NO ONE needs anything more than the words of Jesus to understand salvation. IF they think they do, then they are in deep trouble of being deceived even though they don't think so. The warning from Jesus about these type of people, them saying they are of God and the Jesus is the Christ, is deadly serious. The Adventists, as a group, were not started by EGW as she was just a follower of this group who had here mind altared by a thrown rock.

People who think they have visions from God or even that they are listing to the Holy Spirit now and then refuse to abide by the words of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

Without the OT foundation, the words of Jesus would mean NOTHING!

[BobRyan]

OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings. Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me ? I'm all for reading people's thoughts to help expand my understanding of scripture, but I can't imagine quoting one person as a divine authority.

Are you familiar with the Bible?

Heard of 1Cor 14:1? 1Thess 5:19-20? Or are you saying that these texts are totally new to you and you would like to study them?

Are you aware of the Bible mechanism for creating scripture as stated in 2Peter 1:20-21 -- is this totally new to you?

Or do you consider acceptance of God's prophets to be a biblical sign of a cult?

Surely you have heard of 1Cor 12 - spiritual gifts.

Hard to believe all of this is really as new to you as you seem to claim.

Perhaps it is merely a part of the Bible you prefer not to think about or study - so ok that is your free will choice.

But why come out so harsh against those who are willing to read and think about these sections of scripture? What is up with that?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The word 'cult' is bandied about enough to be meaningless. In this world today, read an anti cult site, and you'll find that it means 'any church that influences the way people live so they are not like everyone else'. What I meant by it was, a group that claims to have access to hidden knowledge that no-one else outside the group can see and has it's own sacred writings apart from the Bible.

"Can you explain your own "worship" of the dead authors of the bible? "

The bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit to give us the words we need to follow Jesus. That is why I obey the Bible. I don't believe that God waited 2000 years to provide an addendum.

There are many prophets listed in the NT (such as you find in 1Cor 14) that never "added anything to the Bible".

The Mechanism for prophecy is the same in both cases.

The authority is the same -- given that "God is still God" whether the Holy Spirit gives a message to someone in 1Cor 14, or to Agabus, or to the daughters of Philip, or to Anna or any of the other NT prophets that did not write any text of scripture...

This is not the hard concept you claim it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

I'm not going to be churlish and point out how she fails these tests.

You won't because you can't. Those are well-documented events.

Quote:

Instead, I will ask, on what basis does the Bible indicate that there are 12 tests that we should apply to prophets in this age,

Perhaps you can identify the true tests of a prophet in scripture? It may be that you have a different count depending on whether you condense or expand the 12 mentioned?

Quote:

and thus elevate some people as prophets above others in the church ? Why can't we just read the Bible alone, and regard other people's writings as opinions we can compare to scripture and perhaps learn from, without ever deciding that someone is 'a prophet' and therefore everything they say is beyond reproach ?

How then will you know that someone claiming to be a prophet is really a prophet unless we know the tests of a prophet? For example, a lot of people are deceived by gibberish because they misunderstand the true gift of tongues.

Quote:

1 Cor 14 says we can all prophecy...

Maybe I missed it, but where does it say in 1 Cor 14 that we can all prophesy?

[Gerr]

ClubV12, the fact is, some people here plainly regard EW as equal to, or above, the Bible.

Could you please show where someone or anyone here has elevated EGW's writing above or on the level with the canon of scripture?

[Gerr]

My point is that people reply to the Bible with the writings of EW, as if they are of the same value. EW needs to line up with the bible. The Bible doesn't have any other authority over it.

Please understand that when Adventists talk among themselves, the Bible & EGW may be quoted freely and perhaps in the same breath. But as an SDA, I find it disconcerting when an Adventist quotes EGW as an authority to a non-SDA.

Here is what EGW said about quoting her:

How can the Lord bless those who manifest a spirit of "I don't care," a spirit which leads them to walk contrary to the light which the Lord has given them. But I do not ask you to take my words. Lay Sister White to one side. Do not quote my works again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, "Sister White said this," and, "Sister White said that." Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.--Ms 43, 1901, p. 10. (E. G. White talk in college library, April 1, 1901.) {5MR 141.1}

May God help you all and help me. I want help and strength and power. But do not quote Sister White till you stand on vantage ground, where you know what you are doing. Take the Word of God. It is full of meat and drink. Study the Bible, and you will know more of God than you do now. You will have something fresh to impart to others. You will not go over the same ground again and again. You will realize that there is a world to save. I ask you to put on the whole armor, and be sure that your feet are shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace.--Manuscript 43, 1901. (A talk presented by Ellen White in the Battle Creek College library, April 1, 1901.)

The first number of the Testimonies ever published contains a warning against the injudicious use of the light which is thus given to God's people. I stated that some had taken an unwise course; when they had talked their faith to unbelievers, and the proof had been asked for, they had read from my writings instead of going to the Bible for proof. It was shown me that this course was inconsistent and would prejudice unbelievers against the truth. The Testimonies can have no weight with those who know nothing of their spirit. They should not be referred to in such cases. {CCh 95.2}

[Gerr]

If these plagues are both literal and reserved for the last days, then Jesus lied when He said we should watch for His return, because He would come unexpectedly.

Huh? While Jesus said no one knows the day nor the hour except the Father, He did tell us there will be signs. See Mt 24. To unbelievers His coming will be totally an unexpected surprise, but not to believers who are expecting and praying for Him to come soon.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings. Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me ? I'm all for reading people's thoughts to help expand my understanding of scripture, but I can't imagine quoting one person as a divine authority.

Are you familiar with the Bible?

Heard of 1Cor 14:1? 1Thess 5:19-20? Or are you saying that these texts are totally new to you and you would like to study them?

Hey, Bob, consider how this would come across if it were addressed to you.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings. Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me ? I'm all for reading people's thoughts to help expand my understanding of scripture, but I can't imagine quoting one person as a divine authority.

Are you familiar with the Bible?

Heard of 1Cor 14:1? 1Thess 5:19-20? Or are you saying that these texts are totally new to you and you would like to study them?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I'm not going to be churlish and point out how she fails these tests.

You won't because you can't. Those are well-documented events.

Quote:

I'm still not going to, you can believe what you like, I'll just keep pointing to the bible as sole authority.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Instead, I will ask, on what basis does the Bible indicate that there are 12 tests that we should apply to prophets in this age,

Perhaps you can identify the true tests of a prophet in scripture? It may be that you have a different count depending on whether you condense or expand the 12 mentioned?

Quote:

There is one. Prophecy in the NT is a gift all Christians have, and it's not telling the future, but expounding the Bible. Thus, the test is, does the Bible say it.

Hence the two scriptures that Bob quoted to me but does not understand. When we hear a prophet we judge, by what ? the bible.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

and thus elevate some people as prophets above others in the church ? Why can't we just read the Bible alone, and regard other people's writings as opinions we can compare to scripture and perhaps learn from, without ever deciding that someone is 'a prophet' and therefore everything they say is beyond reproach ?

How then will you know that someone claiming to be a prophet is really a prophet unless we know the tests of a prophet? For example, a lot of people are deceived by gibberish because they misunderstand the true gift of tongues.

Quote:

Well, that's an ignorant statement, plainly. The 'true gift of tongues' to you is a story about things that happen in far away lands, in other words, a narrative you use to write off the experience of God that I have and that all Christians share with me. The bible is the only test. The bible defines tongues in the church as being what I say they are. But, in the absence of the Spirit, it's not surprising that faith becomes an intellectual exercise, as in, you need to know the 12 tests of a prophet, instead of, you just need to make sure you're doing what the Bible says.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

1 Cor 14 says we can all prophecy...

Maybe I missed it, but where does it say in 1 Cor 14 that we can all prophesy?

I'm sorry. I should have quoted, I know that you guys read the Bible, but that the sort of things that I talk about go right over your heads when you read them ( seriously, you read the Bible and synthesise it with your views, finding the Sabbath everywhere, and glossing over things that you assume just don't happen anymore ).

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1Cr 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Note again that prophecy causes us to learn and be comforted, it does not warn us of future events.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

If these plagues are both literal and reserved for the last days, then Jesus lied when He said we should watch for His return, because He would come unexpectedly.

Huh? While Jesus said no one knows the day nor the hour except the Father, He did tell us there will be signs. See Mt 24. To unbelievers His coming will be totally an unexpected surprise, but not to believers who are expecting and praying for Him to come soon.

We know the seasons, but not the day. Jesus made that clear. Most people talking of future calamitous events also claim they will last for 3 1/2 or 7 years, meaning that when they start, we will know exactly when they end, and basically know the day.

[John317]

OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings. Can someone explain this cultish worship of a dead woman to me ? I'm all for reading people's thoughts to help expand my understanding of scripture, but I can't imagine quoting one person as a divine authority.

Seventh-day Adventists accept Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God. Therefore when we quote her to each other or talk about her, it isn't any more cultish worship than it is for you to quote or talk about any other genuine prophet.

SDAs don't believe she is better than Scripture. Her authority is actually inferior to the authority of Scripture. Her writings are to be judged by Scripture. She cannot correct the Scriptures.

If you don't accept her or believe in her, that is fine. I don't believe we should be quoting her as authority or talking to you about her unless you first bring her up, as you did in your post.

[BibleOnly]

"Seventh-day Adventists accept Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God. Therefore when we quote her to each other or talk about her, it isn't any more cultish worship than it is for you to quote or talk about any other genuine prophet."

I believe the Bible. When someone prophecies in my church ( 3 times every meeting ), it's not so noteworthy to me that I write it down and quote it to anyone. I listen to what God says through His prophets, and seek to learn from it. I do the same next time, it's not so remarkable that I need to write it down for people to quote in 100 years, as a unique event, although the fact it happens is always remarkable and noteworthy.

"SDAs don't believe she is better than Scripture. Her authority is actually inferior to the authority of Scripture. Her writings are to be judged by Scripture. She cannot correct the Scriptures. "

Then why quote her to a non SDA looking to discuss the Bible ?

"I don't believe we should be quoting her as authority or talking to you about her unless you first bring her up, as you did in your post."

I agree, and mention it because people keep quoting her to me instead of the Bible.

[John317]

OK, so people keep quoting this woman to me as being equal to scripture, or sometimes better. There's threads being started to discuss her sayings.

It's as hopeless and foolish to come on this Forum and suggest that SDAs stop quoting or talking to each other about Ellen G. White as it would be for us to go on a Baptist or Methodist Forum and tell them to stop quoting or talking about Paul or Moses.

For us, while her authority is inferior to that of Moses' or Paul's-- because they are canonical and she is not-- yet she was still as genuine a prophet and as inspired by God as they were.

[John317]

Then why quote her to a non SDA looking to discuss the Bible ?

I don't. If others do, I believe you are right to bring up your objection.

[BibleOnly]

"It's as hopeless and foolish to come on this Forum and suggest that SDAs stop quoting or talking to each other about Ellen G. White as it would be for us to go on a Baptist or Methodist Forum and tell them to stop quoting or talking about Paul or Moses."

Interesting that you can't think of another group who holds one of their own in such high esteem as to be quoted instead of the Bible.

"For us, while her authority is inferior to that of Moses' or Paul's-- because they are canonical and she is not-- yet she was still as genuine a prophet and as inspired by God as they were."

Did you know Catholics today claim to 'esteem' rather than 'worship' Mary ? It's a word game, of course. I do not claim to speak for what you feel, but some here clearly feel EW is an appropriate person to quote in order to counter something I quote from the Bible.

[John317]

"It's as hopeless and foolish to come on this Forum and suggest that SDAs stop quoting or talking to each other about Ellen G. White as it would be for us to go on a Baptist or Methodist Forum and tell them to stop quoting or talking about Paul or Moses.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Interesting that you can't think of another group who holds one of their own in such high esteem as to be quoted instead of the Bible.

Why do you assume that I can't think of such? I'm not going to mention every group that I can think of. Baptists and Methodists are examples of many others. I could have mentioned Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and a host of others.

There are some who do hold up "one of their own", but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about other Christians who rightly hold up Paul or Peter or Moses.

My point is that it would be just as foolish and hopeless to go on a socialist forum and tell people to stop quoting Marx or Trotsky.

[BibleOnly]

"Why do you assume that I can't think of such? I'm not going to mention every group that I can think of. Baptists and Methodists are examples of many others. I could have mentioned Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and a host of others. "

Because it would be a better example if you could. Do Catholics quote Popes ? I've been to the Vatican, I expect they do. JWs don't have any special prophets that I know of. Mormons have a whole book, so that's something else again.

"There are some who do hold up "one of their own", but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about other Christians who rightly hold up Paul or Peter or Moses."

By making that comparison, you suggest EW is at least in their ball park of significance and above other Christians.