Ellen White

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

...'that ye come behind in no gift' ?

"... that ye come behind in no gift" is addressed to the entire congregation, not to each individual. Paul is not saying that every individual is to be a prophet, teacher, pastor, etc.

The body of Christ would not be edified if everyone in it had all the same gifts.

That is Paul's point in 1 Cor. 12. He says that would be like a body being all arms or all feet.

No, he says if they all speak in tongues and neglect the other gifts, then the body would not function as everyone wants the same role.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So you think 2 Thes indicates that not all Christians have faith ? Interesting. What about wisdom ? James explicitly says anyone can ask God for wisdom and He gives liberally.

Of course, I think your belief that not all Christians have faith warrants further investigation.

Heb says, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." So every believer MUST have some measure of faith,otherwise he could/would not believe! So what is Paul saying in 2 Thes 3:2? The first part of the sentence says, "And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men," THEN the phrase, "for not everyone has faith." All that is saying to me is that not everyone has faith enough that God would deliver them. For instance, Abraham had faith, but not enough faith that God could them a son through Sarah at her old age. That's why they came up with an alternative plan with the slave woman.

OK - so, how does that relate back to what we were discussing ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, so we agree that 1 Cor 12 is not saying that only some in the church have tongues or prophecy ?

Where does 1 Cor. 12 mention faith, etc.?

Here are the gifts of the Spirit that Paul mentions in that chapter:

1 Cor. 12:228-31

[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? [31] But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

I am shocked how often I have to point things out from the Bible in here.

8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

So, is this saying that only some people have faith, or is the context entirely one of the use of gifts when the body comes together, as in 'do all speak in tongues' ( what Paul asks ) as opposed to 'CAN all speak in tongues' ( which people claim is the question, but Paul does not ask, and he answers in the affirmative in 1 Cor 14 ) ?

[John317]

[Gerr]

OK - so, how does that relate back to what we were discussing ?

That not all are apostles or prophets or teacher or miracle workers. That some gifts are peculiar to each recepient however the Spirit wants to apportion it, while some measure of some gifts are given to all.

[John317]

I am shocked how often I have to point things out from the Bible in here.

8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

So, is this saying that only some people have faith, or is the context entirely one of the use of gifts when the body comes together, as in 'do all speak in tongues' ( what Paul asks ) as opposed to 'CAN all speak in tongues' ( which people claim is the question, but Paul does not ask, and he answers in the affirmative in 1 Cor 14 ) ?

The Bible clearly teaches that God has given everyone enough faith to believe in Him, but that is not the same as receiving the gift of faith that Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 12:9. For instance, not all are given the gift of healing or the gift of working miracles.

1 Cor. 12: 11 tells us that not all have these same gifts but that the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts Himself:

All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

[BibleOnly]

So why does 1 Cor 12 lump 6 gifts that everyone wants with three that so many want to distance themselves from, and which are apparently rarer ? Why did Paul not make this clear, or explain why everyone should seek prophecy, the 'best' gift, and no-one be disappointed that only a few could have it ?

[BibleOnly]

The Bible clearly teaches that God has given everyone enough faith to believe in Him, but that is not the same as receiving the gift of faith that Paul is talking about in 1

Cor. 12. 9. For instance, not all are given the gift of healing or the gift of working miracles.

1 Cor. 12: 11 tells us that not all have these same gifts but that the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts Himself:

All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

2 questions

1 - does God give me the gift of healing when He heals me, or can He heal me only via the presence of a human who has a special healing gift ?

2 - where does the Bible explain the difference between faith and faith ?

[Gerr]

Hope and love are fruits, not gifts. Faith is interesting, it is both. The presence of 6 things that no Christian claims to lack, in a list of 9, raises real questions as to God being partial in giving the other 3, IMO. Even if you are right in your view of what tongues was, ignoring how 1 Cor 12-14 contradicts you, it would mean that every Christian had a use for it then, and many do now, usually everyone in a given location, not a few in each church.

No, no. Friend, after asking "are all apostles, are all apostles," etc. in ch 12:31, Paul says, ESV | ‎1 Co 12:31 "But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way." Then he proceeds to tells us the better way - the "greater gifts" in 1 Cor 13 which are "faith, hope, and love." So hope and love are also both fruit and gifts just like faith.

[BibleOnly]

The better way is not gifts, but fruits. He never says otherwise, he just says their pursuit is 'better'. This is not a dichotomy in the sense that gifts are bad. He's saying gifts are good, when subject to these attitudes.

[Gerr]

So why does 1 Cor 12 lump 6 gifts that everyone wants with three that so many want to distance themselves from, and which are apparently rarer ? Why did Paul not make this clear, or explain why everyone should seek prophecy, the 'best' gift, and no-one be disappointed that only a few could have it ?

I wouldn't distance myself from any of the gifts! I'd like to have them all! But God knows which one I can use best. Only God knows why some of the gifts are rarer today. Someone has developed a questionnaire that identifies peoples gifts. In these surveys, you will find that each individual usually has 3-4 gifts. Some have more, and some have less. The one gift that I have seen that many have in common is the gift of service. That's because that is probably one of the gifts that the church needs the most.

[John317]

So why does 1 Cor 12 lump 6 gifts that everyone wants with three that so many want to distance themselves from, and which are apparently rarer ?

I don't agree that 1 Cor. 12 does this.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Why did Paul not make this clear, or explain why everyone should seek prophecy, the 'best' gift, and no-one be disappointed that only a few could have it ?

What is "prophecy" in the sense that Paul is using it in 1 Cor. 12 and 14?

Notice again that the whole point of 1 Cor. 12 is that not all are given the same gifts.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So why does 1 Cor 12 lump 6 gifts that everyone wants with three that so many want to distance themselves from, and which are apparently rarer ? Why did Paul not make this clear, or explain why everyone should seek prophecy, the 'best' gift, and no-one be disappointed that only a few could have it ?

I wouldn't distance myself from any of the gifts! I'd like to have them all! But God knows which one I can use best. Only God knows why some of the gifts are rarer today. Someone has developed a questionnaire that identifies peoples gifts. In these surveys, you will find that each individual usually has 3-4 gifts. Some have more, and some have less. The one gift that I have seen that many have in common is the gift of service. That's because that is probably one of the gifts that the church needs the most.

Well, you're assuming that rarer in your experience means rare by the choice of God. Paul has the chance to note this will happen when he says that tongues will not cease until Jesus returns. No-where does he suggest they will fade away, but ratehr, end abruptly when they are no longer needed.

A questionaire ? How bizarre. Can I guess that it includes things like baking cakes and love, and does not include tongues, interpretation and prophecy ?

There is no gift of service in the list given in 1 Cor 12. We're not free to invent gifts to make these verses fit our ideas.

Rom 12:9 ¶ [Let] love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Rom 12:10 [be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Rom 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

1Pe 4:7 ¶ But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.

1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Peter is even explicit. We should all be hospitable and serve one another, but, we all minister differently, based on the gifts we use.

[Gerr]

Verse 31 means what it says. In context, just to be completely clear:

[27] If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

[28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Tongues should be used in the church only if someone is willing to interpret, by inspiration of God. Otherwise, if tongues is not used in the church, the place it is used, is to speak to oneself and to God ( that is, not as a gift of languages to use when talking to people )

[29] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

[30] If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.

Just the above verses alone should tell you that not all speak in tongues and not all are prophets. Why else would anyone need an interpreter if all have the gift?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So why does 1 Cor 12 lump 6 gifts that everyone wants with three that so many want to distance themselves from, and which are apparently rarer ?

I don't agree that 1 Cor. 12 does this.

[John317]

2 questions

1 - does God give me the gift of healing when He heals me, or can He heal me only via the presence of a human who has a special healing gift ?

God's healing us of some disease is distinct from His giving us the gift of healing.

God may heal someone as a result of their own prayer or He may heal via the prayers of other church members or through an individual who has been given a special healing gift.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Verse 31 means what it says. In context, just to be completely clear:

[27] If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

[28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Tongues should be used in the church only if someone is willing to interpret, by inspiration of God. Otherwise, if tongues is not used in the church, the place it is used, is to speak to oneself and to God ( that is, not as a gift of languages to use when talking to people )

[29] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

[30] If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.

Just the above verses alone should tell you that not all speak in tongues and not all are prophets. Why else would anyone need an interpreter if all have the gift?

I don't understand the question. What are you trying to say ?

1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Cr 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.

Paul is clear, these people need to seek to use these gifts, they didn't have them in the sense of being experienced in using them at the point of conversion. The difference here is entirely:

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Every Christian has spoken in tongues, by definition. they have not interpreted or prophesied, and must seek to do so. With tongues, interpretation is required in the church, otherwise, we should stay silent and speak instead to God ( not to foreigners, BTW ). So, Paul says to keep speaking in tongues in church, but only when you're willing to take responsibility to also use the gift of interpretation. None of that makes any point in opposition to the idea that when all are told to 'covet to prophesy', it means that all can, if they choose to seek to.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

2 questions

1 - does God give me the gift of healing when He heals me, or can He heal me only via the presence of a human who has a special healing gift ?

God's healing us of some disease is distinct from His giving us the gift of healing.

God may heal someone as a result of their own prayer or He may heal via the prayers of other church members or through an individual who has been given a special healing gift.

That makes more sense, I agree with that.

[John317]

Notice again that the whole point of 1 Cor. 12 is that not all are given the same gifts.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

That is just plain not true. He does not ask 'CAN all speak in tongues', he asks 'DO all speak in tongues'.

Read again 1 Cor. 12: 12-30.

[12] For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. [13] For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

[14] For the body does not consist of one member but of many. [15] If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. [16] And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. [17] If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? [18] But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. [19] If all were a single member, where would the body be? [20] As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." [22] On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, [23] and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, [24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, [25] that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. [26] If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

[27] Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. [28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? [31] But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

He's talking about overuse of certain gifts in a given meeting, not the idea that you need to find someone in your church with the healing gift before God can heal you, for example.

I never suggested that it's saying you need to find somone in your church with the healing gift before God can heal you.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

2 questions

1 - does God give me the gift of healing when He heals me, or can He heal me only via the presence of a human who has a special healing gift ?

God's healing us of some disease is distinct from His giving us the gift of healing.

God may heal someone as a result of their own prayer or He may heal via the prayers of other church members or through an individual who has been given a special healing gift.

See, I believe all healing comes from God, and that for God, healing is healing, regardless of the impact on the person healed. It's as easy to heal cancer as a sore foot, for God.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Notice again that the whole point of 1 Cor. 12 is that not all are given the same gifts.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

That is just plain not true. He does not ask 'CAN all speak in tongues', he asks 'DO all speak in tongues'.

Read again 1 Cor. 12: 12-30.

[12] For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. [13] For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

[14] For the body does not consist of one member but of many. [15] If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. [16] And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. [17] If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? [18] But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. [19] If all were a single member, where would the body be? [20] As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." [22] On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, [23] and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, [24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, [25] that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. [26] If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

[27] Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. [28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? [31] But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

[Gerr]

Well, you're assuming that rarer in your experience means rare by the choice of God. Paul has the chance to note this will happen when he says that tongues will not cease until Jesus returns. No-where does he suggest they will fade away, but ratehr, end abruptly when they are no longer needed.

I never said that any of these gifts has ceased or will cease before Jesus comes! But above all the gifts that Paul says we should covet are faith, hope, and love.

Quote:

A questionaire ? How bizarre. Can I guess that it includes things like baking cakes and love, and does not include tongues, interpretation and prophecy ?

Why would that be bizarre? Baking cakes? We are talking about spiritual gifts! However, I would never limit the gifts of the Spirit to just the list in the Bible. And btw, I have a friend who speaks 5 languages fluently. You think that's a gift? Or do you think it's not a gift because she acquired them through study?

Quote:

There is no gift of service in the list given in 1 Cor 12. We're not free to invent gifts to make these verses fit our ideas.

Rom 12:9 ¶ [Let] love be without dissimulation.

Just back up a few verses of Rom 12:9.

ESV | ‎Ro 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, ‎5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. ‎6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; ‎7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; ‎8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

[BibleOnly]

Why would that be bizarre? Baking cakes? We are talking about spiritual gifts! However, I would never limit the gifts of the Spirit to just the list in the Bible. And btw, I have a friend who speaks 5 languages fluently. You think that's a gift? Or do you think it's not a gift because she acquired them through study?

Because there's no need to keep tally, even if God is partial and shows favoritism, there's no benefit to the church in making sure people know who God prefers.

I assume if you can identify the languages, then humans can understand them, therefore they are not tongues as per 1 Cor 14:2. and unless she woke up one day and knew them, they are obviously the result of her efforts and not God giving a miraculous gift.

[Gerr]

I don't understand the question. What are you trying to say ?

Just look at the verses you quoted. The fact that you need an interpreter should tell you that not everyone in church have the gift of tongues. Why would there be a need for an interpreter if they all have the gift? That's all I'm trying to point out.

Quote:

1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied:

Here's another translation: NASB95 | ‎1 Co 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

A wish for the gift is not the same as having it.

[John317]

So why does 1 Cor 12 lump 6 gifts that everyone wants with three that so many want to distance themselves from, and which are apparently rarer ?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I don't agree that 1 Cor. 12 does this.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Me either, so how do you explain it ?

I don't see 6 gifts of the Spirit that everyone wants and 3 that few want. So you are asking me to explain something that I don't even believe.

But the fact that not all have the same spiritual gifts is proved by verses 4,5, 11--

1 Cor. 12:4-5

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; [5] and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

[11] All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

By saying that faith is not the same as faith, wisdom is not the same as wisdom ?

No, certainly not.

Faith is always the same as faith and wisdom is always the same as wisdom.

But 1 Cor.12 is talking about miraculous gifts of faith and gifts of wisdom. All believers have been given a measure of faith but not all have been given the gift of faith.

The difference is that the gifts are for the entire church to be benefited, whereas the faith that I have for the purpose of placing my faith in Christ is to benefit me.

The spiritual gifts are to edify the church, which is why tongues are not helpful if they are not being used to edify the church. If a tongue is not interpretated, it is not building up the church. That is Paul's point in 1 Cor. 14.

That is why Paul says prophecy is much more important than tongues.