Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 [31] For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, [32] and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. [33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. NOTE: Saying "You can all prophecy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged," is a lot different from saying, "Every individual in the church can be a prophet." Paul was also inspired to write: 1 Cor. 12:28-29 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? NOTE: Paul's point is that not all have the same gift, ie., not all are prophets, not all prophesy. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Gibs Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 OK BibleOnly, But EGW had stated had men taken and known the Bible, His Word she would not have been needed. She was sent as a True guide and there is many false guides out there and extremely few of the true. For sure she shouldn't have been needed and neither should any reform movements should have been needed but the fact remains men don't look to Him and discern His truth from the error that Satan weaves in through men and his agents. EGW didn't add anything to His Word and only upheld it and admonished where any found she deviated from her statements to follow the Word first. She always put His Word as the only true guide. Christians are united on many things apart from being in unity with another group of Christians. But the fact must remain, True Christian Unity is that All that are True Christians will be in His Unity when they are one in Christ. That is solid unity founded on the Rock. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Moderators Gerr Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Bible the only authority and then you say that "the Bible defines tongues in the church as being what I say they are?" Did you really mean to say that you define what the Bible says about tongues? Quote: I'm sorry' date=' I don't know what to say to that. Yes, I meant to say that the Bible defines tongues to be in line with what I claim they are. The bible defines what tongues are. I happen to be saying what the Bible says, I am right only because the Bible provides the definition and I agree with it.[/quote'] And how does the Bible define the gift of tongues to which you agree to? ESV | ‎Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. ‎5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ‎6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. ‎7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? ‎8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? ‎9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, ‎10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, ‎11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” his is the tongues that I understand to speak of. According to Acts 2, the gift of tongue is not some gibberish but a totally understandable language to someone who knows the language.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 [31] For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, [32] and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. [33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. NOTE: Saying "You can all prophecy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged," is a lot different from saying, "Every individual in the church can be a prophet."
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 ESV | ‎Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. ‎5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ‎6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. ‎7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? ‎8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? ‎9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, ‎10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, ‎11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” his is the tongues that I understand to speak of. According to Acts 2, the gift of tongue is not some gibberish but a totally understandable language to someone who knows the language. OK. If you're right, then, as Paul says tongues will not cease until we see Jesus face to face, and should be operated in a Christian church, does your church operate this gift as you describe it, with people interpreting by inspiration of God, without understanding what is said, as set out in 1 Cor 14 ? 1 Cor 14:2 says that people who speak in tongues speak only to God, that no man understands. Further down, Paul says if there is no interpreter, the tongues speaker should wait and speak to who ? Not to people outside the church who don't speak their language, but to themselves and to God. There's a vast body of scripture that you deny by saying that what was described in Acts 2 means that tongues was used to break the language barrier ( not even Acts 2 is a record of this happening, and it never happens in the Bible ), and that Paul's writing in 1 Cor 14 was essentially lies ( in fact, someone here told me that Paul alternates between lies and truth in 1 Cor 14, half of what he says is intended as obvious lies ).
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 The point is that if this is true, then not all have faith, wisdom or discernment according to Paul. 2 Thes. 3:2 and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 So you think 2 Thes indicates that not all Christians have faith ? Interesting. What about wisdom ? James explicitly says anyone can ask God for wisdom and He gives liberally. Of course, I think your belief that not all Christians have faith warrants further investigation.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 According to Acts 2, the gift of tongue is not some gibberish but a totally understandable language to someone who knows the language. OK. If you're right, then, as Paul says tongues will not cease until we see Jesus face to face, and should be operated in a Christian church, does your church operate this gift as you describe it, with people interpreting by inspiration of God, without understanding what is said, as set out in 1 Cor 14 ? 1 Cor 14:2 says that people who speak in tongues speak only to God, that no man understands. Further down, Paul says if there is no interpreter, the tongues speaker should wait and speak to who ? Not to people outside the church who don't speak their language, but to themselves and to God. There's a vast body of scripture that you deny by saying that what was described in Acts 2 means that tongues was used to break the language barrier ( not even Acts 2 is a record of this happening, and it never happens in the Bible ), and that Paul's writing in 1 Cor 14 was essentially lies ( in fact, someone here told me that Paul alternates between lies and truth in 1 Cor 14, half of what he says is intended as obvious lies ). Well, that's very easy for me to answer. All the people in my congregation can speak and understand English, so there's no need to speak in tongues. However, I had the privilege of speaking to the Spanish-speaking congregation when they were organized as a company. I preached in English and a brother interpreted for them. Without the interpreter, all I would have been doing was preaching/talking to God and the angels. You would never hear it from me that Paul was a liar!!! But I think I can guess who might have said it.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 [31] For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, [32] and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. [33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. NOTE: Saying "You can all prophecy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged," is a lot different from saying, "Every individual in the church can be a prophet." Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Please explain the difference between 'you can all prophecy' and 'you should all seek to prophecy' and 'every individual in the church can be a prophet'. Do members of the church become prophets because they want to? Or do members of the church become prophets because the Holy Spiirt chooses them? Paul clearly says that people have the gift of prophecy because the Holy Spirit gives them the gift. No one is a prophet merely by virtue of wanting to be one. Do you see a difference between "You can all prophecy," and "You can all prophecy one by one so that all may learn..."? The Bible does not say, "It is possible for every individual in the church to be a prophet". In fact, Paul denies this, when he asks, "Are all prophets?" The only correct answer to Paul's question is, "No, all are not prophets." John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 So in other words, you have no access to spiritual gifts, you don't obey 1 Cor 12-14 in your church, and when you do need to break the language barrier, you do so by natural means, not by the means of the gift that you are so eloquent in describing. How does this gel with the bible ? Why not use the gift that Paul said would be here until Jesus returns, if it is as you claim ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 So you think 2 Thes indicates that not all Christians have faith ? Interesting. Did I say this? What does 2 Thess. 3:2 say? 2 Thes. 3:2 and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. It says not all people have faith. It is speaking of the wicked. I quoted Romans 12: 3, which teaches that all Christians are given a measure of faith: For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Do members of the church become prophets because they want to? Or do members of the church become prophets because the Holy Spiirt chooses them?
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly So you think 2 Thes indicates that not all Christians have faith ? Interesting. Did I say this? What does 2 Thess. 3:2 say? 2 Thes. 3:2 and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. It says not all people have faith. It is speaking of the wicked. I quoted Romans 12: 3, which teaches that all Christians are given a measure of faith: For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. OK, that is what I think the Bible says. So, 1 Cor 12 does not say that not all Christians have faith. So, why is faith listed in the same breath as tongues and prophecy, if only some have these, but all have faith, wisdom, discernment, etc ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 Do members of the church become prophets because they want to? Or do members of the church become prophets because the Holy Spiirt chooses them? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly There is no indication of either thing. Sure, there is. The Bible teaches clearly that it's the Holy Spirit who distributes the spiritual gifts as He wills, not as humans will. Human beings don't decide who is going to prophesy or who is going to speak in tongues, etc. 1 Cor. 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 So you think 2 Thes indicates that not all Christians have faith ? Interesting. What about wisdom ? James explicitly says anyone can ask God for wisdom and He gives liberally. Of course, I think your belief that not all Christians have faith warrants further investigation. While not every believer has all the gifts, there are some gifts that the Holy Spirit apportions to all in varying degrees. Faith is one of them. NASB95 | ‎Ro 12:3 "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." And the others are hope & love, according to 1 Cor 13.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Do members of the church become prophets because they want to? Or do members of the church become prophets because the Holy Spiirt chooses them? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly There is no indication of either thing. Sure, there is. The Bible teaches clearly that it's the Holy Spirit who distributes the spiritual gifts as He wills, not as humans will. Human beings don't decide who is going to prophesy or who is going to speak in tongues, etc. 1 Cor. 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. I agree. What does He will ? To give with partiality, or 'that ye come behind in no gift' ? How does this apply to wisdom, faith and knowledge ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 So, 1 Cor 12 does not say that not all Christians have faith. I have never even suggested that any Bible text says that all Christians don't have faith. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Hope and love are fruits, not gifts. Faith is interesting, it is both. The presence of 6 things that no Christian claims to lack, in a list of 9, raises real questions as to God being partial in giving the other 3, IMO. Even if you are right in your view of what tongues was, ignoring how 1 Cor 12-14 contradicts you, it would mean that every Christian had a use for it then, and many do now, usually everyone in a given location, not a few in each church.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly So, 1 Cor 12 does not say that not all Christians have faith. I have never even suggested that any Bible texts says that all Christians don't have faith. OK, so we agree that 1 Cor 12 is not saying that only some in the church have tongues or prophecy ?
Members phkrause Posted December 18, 2011 Members Posted December 18, 2011 It seems that context according to BibleOnly, goes one way. Others need to put things in context. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 1 Cor. 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. Originally Posted By: BibleOnly I agree. What does He will ? To give with partiality, or 'that ye come behind in no gift' ? How does this apply to wisdom, faith and knowledge ? Paul's entire point in 1 Cor. 12 is that not all members of the church have the same spiritual gift. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts where He chooses, not where we choose. Some are teachers, others are evangelists, still others teachers, etc., as He sees fit to give the gifts. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 ...'that ye come behind in no gift' ? "... that ye come behind in no gift" is addressed to the entire congregation, not to each individual. Paul is not saying that every individual is to be a prophet, teacher, pastor, etc. The body of Christ would not be edified if everyone in it had all the same gifts. That is Paul's point in 1 Cor. 12. He says that would be like a body being all arms or all feet. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 So you think 2 Thes indicates that not all Christians have faith ? Interesting. What about wisdom ? James explicitly says anyone can ask God for wisdom and He gives liberally. Of course, I think your belief that not all Christians have faith warrants further investigation. Heb says, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." So every believer MUST have some measure of faith,otherwise he could/would not believe! So what is Paul saying in 2 Thes 3:2? The first part of the sentence says, "And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men," THEN the phrase, "for not everyone has faith." All that is saying to me is that not everyone has faith enough that God would deliver them. For instance, Abraham had faith, but not enough faith at one time that God could give them a son through Sarah at her old age. That's why they came up with an alternative plan with the slave woman.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 OK, so we agree that 1 Cor 12 is not saying that only some in the church have tongues or prophecy ? Where does 1 Cor. 12 mention faith, etc.? Here are the gifts of the Spirit that Paul mentions in that chapter: 1 Cor. 12:228-31 [28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? [31] But earnestly desire the higher gifts. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: John3:17 1 Cor. 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. Originally Posted By: BibleOnly I agree. What does He will ? To give with partiality, or 'that ye come behind in no gift' ? How does this apply to wisdom, faith and knowledge ? Paul's entire point in 1 Cor. 12 is that not all members of the church have the same spiritual gift. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts where He chooses, not where we choose. Some are teachers, others are evangelists, still others teachers, etc., as He sees fit to give the gifts. So it IS the case that only some have faith, wisdom, knowledge and discernment ? Which do you lack ? How can Paul list 9 things on the basis that 6 of them work totally differently to what you claim the lesson of the chapter is ? Why does 1 Cor 14 say we can all speak in tongues, interpret and prophecy ? Why are some gifts 'better' if we all have different ones ? Is God partial ? Is He a 'respecter of persons' ?
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