Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 Why do you assume that I can't think of such? I'm not going to mention every group that I can think of. Baptists and Methodists are examples of many others. I could have mentioned Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and a host of others.[/qoute] John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 BibleOnly, Can you please use the "quote" buttons? It's a lot easier than putting quotation marks around what other people said. It does it automatically for you. Try clicking on "quick quote". John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 "The same principle holds true for all of them. You wouldn't go on their Forums and tell them to stop quoting to each other from their authorities, would you? " I would indeed ask that they either admit that they are not basing their beliefs on the Bible only, or to use the Bible only as an authority when talking to me, at least. It's a lot easier than putting quotation marks around what other people said. It does it automatically for you. Try clicking on "quick quote". Wow, I did not know that. It's not terribly useful, in that it quotes the whole message, I am used to most discussions devolving to 100 points where I need to constantly quote and unquote. I've also noted these forums start to drop watched threads when you watch too many ( I'd guess at 8, but I am not sure ). It's all a little clunky. I'm doing my best....
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 There are some who do hold up "one of their own", but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about other Christians who rightly hold up Paul or Peter or Moses. Originally Posted By: BibleOnly By making that comparison, you suggest EW is at least in their ball park of significance and above other Christians. She is equally inspired, yes, but she is not on a par with Scripture as an authority because she is not canonical. She was a genuine prophet of God, and therefore she is above other Christians in authority. God gave her His messages. Jesus gave her dreams and visions that were intended for the church. She didn't write her own messages. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Q.E.D. Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 JWs don't have any special prophets that I know of. Hmmmm. . . The Watchtower??? From the Witness Inc. Home Page. http://www.witnessinc.com/ Reaching The Jehovah's Witnesses With The Gospel Since 1975. "The foundation stone, the sole spiritual authority for all Jehovah's Witnesses, is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, headquartered in Brooklyn, New York. The claims presented in any Watchtower publication are accepted without question by every Witness. The Bible translation most highly respected is THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, the work of the Watchtower Society. Yet, even this "Bible", is considered a dark book, not understandable to any Jehovah's Witnesses, without the divinely provided help of the Watchtower Bible "aids". For all practical purposes, the Witness follows Watchtower instruction as though it comes directly from heaven. Even without the claim of divine inspiration, the Watchtower has managed to persuade its followers that it is divinely guided; and therefore its teachings are to be accepted as though they are infallible." Very Interesting. . . From Witness Inc also. "In almost all religions, the believer comes to accept, without question, the spiritual authority of the founder or leaders of the group. It is essential that the convert to any religious movement be in total subjection to the teachings of the authority figure, otherwise the "faith" of the individual will not be strong. The religious leader cannot be challenged, or even questioned, on theological issues. For example, could a Roman Catholic retain faith in his church if he questioned the authority or teachings of the Pope? No. Could one accept the beliefs of Islam and yet deny that Muhammed is the prophet of Allah (God)? No. Each religion is based of the teachings if it's spiritual leader. The authority of the leader is the very foundation stone upon which the religion rests." Q.E.D. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 God gave her His messages. Jesus gave her dreams and visions that were intended for the church. She didn't write her own messages. So, God sent the SDA one prophet, instead of making everyone a prophet, as He did in Corinth and does in my church ? Where does the Bible support this view ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 ...Try clicking on "quick quote". Originally Posted By: Bible Only Wow, I did not know that. It's not terribly useful, in that it quotes the whole message, You can change it so that you can included only part of the quote, just like I did with this post. You just delete the part that you don't want quoted. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Yet, even this "Bible", is considered a dark book, not understandable to any Jehovah's Witnesses, without the divinely provided help of the Watchtower Bible "aids". Interesting. I see parallels with the SDA who have told me that the Bible does not clearly support sabbath keeping entirely so that God could hide the Gospel from people not willing to search for it.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 You just delete the part that you don't want quoted. Thanks, I did that too. I'm a software developer, so I'm used to forums written for developers, where I could highlight a passage and hit 'quote' and just that passage gets quoted. Programmers know how easy it is to do something like that and don't let their forum authors get away with less :-) Not a big deal, I've used plenty of forums, I just have to get used to the limitations of the software driving this one.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 It is interesting to note that most of the replies I'm getting today are on this thread. Nothing riles up the SDA more than questioning the special status and holiness of Ellen White, it seems.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 God gave her His messages. Jesus gave her dreams and visions that were intended for the church. She didn't write her own messages. Originally Posted By: BibleOnly So, God sent the SDA one prophet, instead of making everyone a prophet, as He did in Corinth and does in my church ? Where does the Bible support this view ? God raised up a prophet in our day-- that is, in 1844-1915-- the same as He did in Bible times. He did not make all Israel or all the church a prophet. He did not give all of them dreams and visions. Here is the Bible testimony: 1 Cor. 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? NOTE: All are NOT prophets. 1 Cor. 12:7-11 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. [8] To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, [10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. Ephes. 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, NOTE: Again, it is not true that God made all members prophets. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 It is interesting to note that most of the replies I'm getting today are on this thread. Nothing riles up the SDA more than questioning the special status and holiness of Ellen White, it seems. I can't help what replies you get on other threads. I am answering your posts here because I think they deserve a response, not because I am "riled up." Or do you want me to stop responding to your posts here and let you talk to yourself? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 So, God sent the SDA one prophet, instead of making everyone a prophet, as He did in Corinth and does in my church ? Show where the Bible teaches that God made everyone in Corinth a prophet. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Naomi Posted December 18, 2011 Administrators Posted December 18, 2011 It is interesting to note that most of the replies I'm getting today are on this thread. Nothing riles up the SDA more than questioning the special status and holiness of Ellen White, it seems. I haven't responded to your thread, however, I do want to suggest that one can be an Adventist and follow all fundamental beliefs and never read or quote Ellen White. The Bible fully supports our day of worship. She was, however, to what we believe are the end-tine peoples given dreams and visions by God to encourage and assist their/our understanding. The message was too complex for God to give all understanding in the beginning, thus others were given understanding in measured amounts to make understanding and pratice feasible. It's difficult to eat an elephant all at once, one bit at a time ... the same with the revelation of the gospel. As for Adventist who told you they could not understand the 7th day Sabbath only from the Bible, but had to have EGW to clearify. I would suggest they return to prayful Bible study. The Bible is very clear and does not contridict itself. Blessings If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 So, God sent the SDA one prophet, instead of making everyone a prophet, as He did in Corinth and does in my church ? Where does the Bible support this view ? Is everyone in your church a prophet? Is it true then that you yourself claim to be a prophet? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 As for Adventist who told you they could not understand the 7th day Sabbath only from the Bible, but had to have EGW to clearify. I would suggest they return to prayful Bible study. The Bible is very clear and does not contridict itself. Any SDA who said this doesn't understand the Bible or the history of their own church. The Sabbath was understood on the basis of the Bible long before Ellen White's day. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 God raised up a prophet in our day-- that is, in 1844-1915-- the same as He did in Bible times. He did not make all Israel or all the church a prophet. He did not give all of them dreams and visions.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Naomi As for Adventist who told you they could not understand the 7th day Sabbath only from the Bible, but had to have EGW to clearify. I would suggest they return to prayful Bible study. The Bible is very clear and does not contridict itself. Any SDA who said this doesn't understand the Bible or the history of their own church. The Sabbath was understood on the basis of the Bible long before Ellen White's day. Well, this forum has certainly taught me that the SDA is like the church world, greatly divided against itself and full of different ideas.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly It is interesting to note that most of the replies I'm getting today are on this thread. Nothing riles up the SDA more than questioning the special status and holiness of Ellen White, it seems. I can't help what replies you get on other threads. I am answering your posts here because I think they deserve a response, not because I am "riled up." Or do you want me to stop responding to your posts here and let you talk to yourself? I'm sorry, that was perhaps a cheap shot. of course I am commenting because I'd like to discuss things. But if I could choose, I'd ask that someone explain the verses in Hebrews that explain how the Sabbath has moved from one day to the way we live, instead of ignoring them as everyone has done to date.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly So, God sent the SDA one prophet, instead of making everyone a prophet, as He did in Corinth and does in my church ? Show where the Bible teaches that God made everyone in Corinth a prophet. Done already I had quoted that verse on these forums, and I think this thread, many times before, but I did it again. 1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1Cr 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. if you missed it. I strongly dislike the icon that comes up when I type a : and P. It seems to me to be rude when I just meant a playful grin. I need to examine the emoticons and choose one that displays my intent.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 I haven't responded to your thread, however, I do want to suggest that one can be an Adventist and follow all fundamental beliefs and never read or quote Ellen White. The Bible fully supports our day of worship.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly So, God sent the SDA one prophet, instead of making everyone a prophet, as He did in Corinth and does in my church ? Where does the Bible support this view ? Is everyone in your church a prophet? Is it true then that you yourself claim to be a prophet? 1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1Cr 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Do I use the gift of prophecy when the church comes together ? Yes. What you need to realise is that it's only because the idea of God doing things seems special and rare to you, that you think I am raising myself above other people. I'm not, I take it for granted that in the church, anyone can do these things, if they choose to.
ClubV12 Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 BibleOnly says, "Most people talking of future calamitous events also claim they will last for 3 1/2 or 7 years, meaning that when they start, we will know exactly when they end, and basically know the day." There may be some truth in that, from my "scanning of the web" I think that statement has some merit. There are also various groups of PROFESSED Adventists that take a similiar position. One such group I consistently feel the need to CORRECT I call the "1335 Futurists". My fundamental argument is similiar to yours, we know not the day or the hour. ANY attempt to even narrow down that time frame to some point in time is not sound doctrine. The Seventh-day Adventist church position on this issue is solid and not at all confusing. We know not the hour, period. We know not the day, period. We DO know of "signs along the way", as did the people in Pauls time! Adam himself was wondering if one of HIS son's might be the coming Messiah! The followers of God have continually looked for His coming, the first or the second since Adam and Eve. It's what we are told to do. Adventist believe that at THIS TIME we ARE living in the last days. His second coming is close, even at the door. We have seen the signs in history fulfilled. We are waiting for the very last day events to now unfold, but the church makes NO attempt to put ANY kind of time frame on it, while of course many others do. I think it would be well to review the definition of a prophet, BUT, there is a wide spread of ideas from many camps as to what constitutes a prophet. Certainly Paul was one, John the Revelator was one, Moses was one. Other folks have indeed had visions, dreams or divine revelations, but in my opinion that doesn't raise them to the status of "prophet" by my definition. Whereas, Ellen White had the distinctive traits, actions, fruits of a true, by any definition, "prophet". All though she herself never claimed to be one, the evidence is convincing. She also claimed she was not infallible, I believe that is also the case with many biblical prophets as well. They were human after all, they were not perfect in every regard. They were, never the less, used of God to deliver distinctive messages to the people of their time and beyond.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Author Posted December 18, 2011 "John the Revelator was one" Do you know the song of that name, or is it just a turn of phrase ? Just curious... I love Son House. "Other folks have indeed had visions, dreams or divine revelations, but in my opinion that doesn't raise them to the status of "prophet" by my definition. Whereas, Ellen White had the distinctive traits, actions, fruits of a true, by any definition, "prophet". All though she herself never claimed to be one, the evidence is convincing. She also claimed she was not infallible, I believe that is also the case with many biblical prophets as well. They were human after all, they were not perfect in every regard. They were, never the less, used of God to deliver distinctive messages to the people of their time and beyond." I don't see any definition of 'prophet' in the NT church beyond 'one who prophecies', that is, all of us, in 1 Cor 14. I also think the bible is clear and complete and that God doesn't need anyone to expound on or expand on what Jesus said and did, or the instruction given the early church.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 The bible defines tongues in the church as being what I say they are. Bible the only authority and then you say that "the Bible defines tongues in the church as being what I say they are?" Did you really mean to say that you define what the Bible says about tongues? Quote: I'm sorry. I should have quoted, I know that you guys read the Bible, but that the sort of things that I talk about go right over your heads when you read them ( seriously, you read the Bible and synthesise it with your views, finding the Sabbath everywhere, and glossing over things that you assume just don't happen anymore ). 1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. There is one. Prophecy in the NT is a gift all Christians have, and it's not telling the future, but expounding the Bible. Thus, the test is, does the Bible say it Is it possible you overlooked ch 12 & the preceding verses in ch 14? Did Paul say everyone believer IS a prophet? Here is what he says: ESV |1 Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. As members of the body of Christ we are no more all prophets than we are all fingers or apostles or teachers or miracle workers! While Paul advises believers to ESV |1 Co 14:1 "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." You may or can desire a particular gift all you want, but the Holy Spirit "apportions to each one individually as he wills." So in 14:31, Paul is saying to me is that if you have some prophets in the church, "they can all prophesy in turn, so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged." (NIV)
Recommended Posts