Increased Light? On What?

[skyblue888]

There can be no question then in the light of the foregoing evidences from the prophetic Word that this event (the device of Satan being perfected in making void the law of God by enforcing Sunday worship through the union of church and state) is a very significant and important one indeed. It marks a very definite point of development in the great final conflict and we must be thoroughly acquainted with all the facts that concern it. These facts will take on even greater significance as we proceed with the study and witness the bearing that they will have on the crisis.

For now it is time to turn to a study of what leads up to and actually brings the image into existence. This will be the subject of the next posts.

sky

[skyblue888]

The setting up of the image of the beast is not something that happens without cause. Rather it is the result of the outworking of certain steps and certain decisions that have been made along the way, and is the logical and inescapable culmination of those steps. It is something to which the church and the state, having set their feet in certain paths, must of necessity come to in the end.

For us who are called upon by God to be faithful Bible students it is not enough to know that the image is to be set up and to know what is involved in the setting up of that image. We must know how it comes to be set up. We must understand as far as it is revealed and as far as it is possible for the human mind aided by the Spirit of God to understand the outworking of the very principles that lead up to this situation. It is an important part of the study of prophecy.

What was it then that led to the setting up of the beast in the first case and to the setting up of the image of that beast in the second case? Inasmuch as the setting up of the beast is the result of the outworking of certain forces and the setting up of the image is the same result except at a later date, then it follows that the same forces that resulted in the setting up of the beast must have been again at work to set up the repetition of that beast in the image of it. Therefore to understand that which is yet to be we must study carefully that which has already been and can be clearly seen.

That then is the question, and the answer is given to us in language clear and plain.

"It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government, and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy, the beast. Said Paul, 'There shall come a falling away... and that man of sin shall be revealed.' 2 Thess.2:3. So apostasy in the church will prepare the way for the image of the beast." G.C.443,444.

Now, why is it that the setting up of the beast and then of the image is the natural and inevitable consequence of the apostasy?

sky

[Gibs]

Sky, I can agree on part of your comment but not all.

Why? Because I am not a historicist and can never be one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

No problem.

The word apostasy or falling away means to fall away, or to depart from the truth of God. This is only to fall away from the power of God and thus to leave the church powerless. To be powerless means to be without any ability to accomplish anything at all. This then means that the church has lost all right of existence when it has come to this place where she has nothing at all to attract the people, and she finds herself drifting more and more into insignificance. Therefore, the church must seek another power to attract the people other than the power of God. But what other power was there? There was only one other power and that was the power of force. If the people would not of themselves come to the churches and support them then they must be forced to come.

But the power of force rested not in the hands of the church. The state was the custodian of that. Therefore it followed that by some means the church must win the support of the state until they could finally control it and use it to force the people to do exactly what they wanted them to do.

There could be no other possible outcome than this. It was the inevitable step by step development of it all. And it was not a sudden thing. No apostasy or the result of it is ever sudden. It is a process. And inasmuch as that power is firmly held in the possession of the secular authorities who have been put in the world to rule those who cannot rule themselves, it follows that the church must gain the control of the State in order to control the power of the State. And when that is accomplished, then the beast is formed.

sky

[Lysimachus]

Sky, I can agree on part of your comment but not all.

Why? Because I am not a historicist and can never be one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Wait, are you saying you believe that the "time, times, and the dividing of time" of Daniel 7:25 is also future just like the 42 months?

I know some folks like you who believe the 42 months of Revelation 13 are future, but they believe the "time, times, and the dividing of time" in Daniel 7:25 applies to the Little Horn power, the Papacy from 538 to 1798.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were part Historicist and part Futurist.

Are you actually confessing here that you apply the time element of Daniel 7:25 to the future as well??

Oh please Gibs, do not tell me this is true. Please, please please!

If the answer to the above is yes, not only would I be severely disappointed, but this will mean that you just ABSOLVED the Papacy completely from being the Antichrist, Beast, OR Little Horn Power that persecuted 100-150 million saints during the Dark Ages!

You have just STRIPPED yourself from ALL your weapons to expose the man of sin, and will find yourself completely defenseless when the persecution resumes.

Also, I feel that you have a misunderstanding of true Historicism Gibs. True Historicism recognizes much in the future. Futurism is when one severs the Little Horn off the head of the 4th Beast of Daniel and places it exclusively in the future by inserting a 1500+ year gap in-between.

I'm not sure how you think I believe all prophecy is fulfilled in the past. Do you really want to know how much I believe is yet future?

1. The healed beast is yet future!

2. The last and final great tribulation is yet future (this is not based on time, but it is likely that it will counterfeit Christ's 3 1/2 year ministry. If anything, the time periods in Daniel 12 have a better chance of being re-applied in the future than the 42 months of Revelation 13--if at all).

3. The Mark of the Beast is yet future!

4. The majority of Revelation 17 and 18 is yet future! The Harlot Woman has not been burned up or destroyed yet and attacked by the 10 horns. The economy has not entirely collapsed.

5. Revelation 19, 20, 21, and 22 is all future!

6. The Apocalyptic Seal of God is yet future!

8. The 7th Seal is yet future!

9. The 7 last plagues are yet future!

10. The Second Coming is yet future!

11. The Millennium is yet future!

12. The Great White Throne Judgment and siege of the New Jerusalem is yet future!

13. The New Earth is yet future!

....

As you can see Gibs, there are still a LOT of things that Historicists believe are yet future!

This doesn't make us "FuturISTS" though. We actually take the year-day principle very seriously. These future events are simply the "acme" or "climax" of the Historicist time-table. Historicism accounts for the "PAST", the "PRESENT", and the "FUTURE", and this is congruous with the nature of God according to the book of Revelation.

[Gibs]

Lys,

Well I see you are not a full fledged historicist. As for the prophecy of Dan. 7:25 it is on the Jubilee Calendar and is a yr. for a day. Same with Dan. 8: and those prophecies are to begin starting in 1844 to the consumation. That is the furthest reatching down in time of the yr. for a day prophecies.

Re 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

Re 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Re 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The scroll was sealed up and the prophecies would not be "time", yr. for a day no more. This is the reason these prophecies could not be understood back yonder days.

Well I imagine you'll take those verses to mean much different so I will not try to explain further on them.

It does make clear to me the 42 mos. of Rev. 13:5 is literal time and hasn't happened yet. This is the same prophetic time of Dan 12:7, but the 1290 days and 1335 days will not come to fruitition because the time is shortened for the elect's sake.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Those my friends are the only days that can be shortened but it takes some reasoning to see it.

Dan. tells some things John don't and John tells us some things Dan don't.

Read the Rev verses, then read the Dan verses below, they both saw the same thing except John wasn't shown the 1290 and 1335 days!

Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Re 10:8 ¶ And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

Re 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Re 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Re 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

Da 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Da 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Da 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three

hundred and five and thirty days.

Da 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

I don't think but what I wasted my time with some but I keep at this because I know it benefits some.

His Blessings I pray to all who will see.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Great post Marcos.

Okay, if you don't mind you guys, I will just keep going with the train of thought I started on this thread.

THE RISE OF THE BEAST

It is important for our future study to spend a little space in the study of the development of the original Sunday law which is, in other words, the study of the development of the control of the church over the people by the force of the power of the State.

The time had come when the churches so lacked the power of God that they could no longer attract the people at all and on the Sunday, and special feast days, the priests found that the people would rather work than come to church. This would never do, for not only was it a serious blow to their pride and prestige, but a decided threat to their livelihood. Having in the meantime gained great favour and power with the Emperor they went to him and secured the law that forbade all work on the first day of the week.

Neander in his history of the Christian Religion and Church, vol.2. section 3, part 2, div.3, par.4, records the fact in these words, "By a law of the year 386, these older changes effected by the Emperor Constantine were more rigorously enforced; and, in general, civil transactions of every kind on Sunday were strictly forbidden. Whosoever transgressed was to be considered, in fact, guilty of sacrilege."

"As a direct result of this law, there soon appeared an evil which, under the circumstances and in the logic of the case, called for further legislation in the same direction. The law forbade all work. But as the people had no such religion as would cause them to devote the day to pious and moral exercises, the effect of the law was only to enforce idleness. Enforced idleness only multiplied opportunity for dissipation. The natural consequences was that the circuses and the theaters throughout the empire were crowded every Sunday." A.T. Jones, Great Empires of Prophecy, p.488.

What to do now? The answer was simple. Having entered upon this wrong path there was nothing left to do but to go further along that path and accordingly they worked till they had a law that closed the theaters on the Sunday. At the council of Carthage in June A.D.401, the following canon was enacted: "Canon 5. On Sundays and feast days, no plays may be performed." This they carried to the Emperor Honorius and requested that he pass this into law.

"The church members had not enough religion or love of right to do what they professed to believe was right, therefore, the State was asked to take away from them all opportunity to do wrong; then they would be Christians! Satan himself could be that kind of Christian in that way, and he would be the devil still." Ibid, 490.

In 425 this came into law and the priests were now confident that the churches were to be filled with a people who, not being permitted by law to work on the Sunday or to play either would now come to church. But again they were disappointed for the people would rather do nothing at all than come to the church which held nothing for them. Accordingly they rested at home on the Sunday and the church was as empty as ever.

"In the logic of this theory there was one more step to be taken. To see how logically it came about, let us glance at the steps taken from the first one to this point: First, the church had all work on Sunday forbidden, in order that the people might attend to things divine; work was forbidden, that the people might worship. But the people would not worship; they went to the circuses and to the theaters instead of to church. Then the church had laws enacted closing the circuses and the theaters, in order that the people might attend church. But even then the people would not be devoted, nor attend church, for they had no real religion. The next step to be taken therefore, in the logic of the situation was to compel them to be devoted, to compel them to attend to things divine. This was the next step logically to be taken, and it was taken. The theocratical bishops were equal to the occasion. They exactly met the demands of the case; and one of the grandest of the Catholic Fathers and Catholic saints was the father of this Catholic saintly theory. He wrote:

'It is indeed better that men should be brought to serve God by instruction than by fear of punishment or by pain. But because the former means are better, the latter must not therefore be rejected.... Many must be often brought back to their Lord, like wicked servants, by the rod of temporal sufferings, before they attain the highest grade of religious development.'" Augustine, A.T.Jones, Great Empires, p.491.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Sky, IF one wants to use her writings for a foundation to understand prophecy, then I don't see any argument with what you replied with here. But think of this please, should any of us have the gall to add to or subtract from the words of Revelation? Sure, the plagues will not hurt EGW because she is dead and it only affects the living wicked AND those who added or subtracted, even if they use someone's words now long gone.

[Gibs]

Sky, There used to be a lot of "hell fire preachers" and I don't believe it ever scared the hell out of them.

But I must still stand that those prophecies that fell after 1844 are not yr. for a day, 1844 was the last for that as I laid out in my comment above. These prophecies were not opened to be seen yet, sealed up until the time to see and understand them.

Well now we been for a long time now able to discern them as He has opened the see of them all now who will look to see. No one needs to follow me unless they see it. And there is many that do, I've known quite a few and some are close here to me.

Most all of these prophecies were at least in part put forth before 1844 as it was thought all was going to be over so the prophecies all had to show a fulfillment.

There should have been some rescinding done on them but wasn't and will not now.

The study of them now will shine out the true light to him who wants it,Proof,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Lys,

Well I see you are not a full fledged historicist. As for the prophecy of Dan. 7:25 it is on the Jubilee Calendar and is a yr. for a day. Same with Dan. 8: and those prophecies are to begin starting in 1844 to the consumation. That is the furthest reatching down in time of the yr. for a day prophecies.

Re 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

Re 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Re 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The scroll was sealed up and the prophecies would not be "time", yr. for a day no more. This is the reason these prophecies could not be understood back yonder days.

Well I imagine you'll take those verses to mean much different so I will not try to explain further on them.

It does make clear to me the 42 mos. of Rev. 13:5 is literal time and hasn't happened yet. This is the same prophetic time of Dan 12:7, but the 1290 days and 1335 days will not come to fruitition because the time is shortened for the elect's sake.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Those my friends are the only days that can be shortened but it takes some reasoning to see it.

Dan. tells some things John don't and John tells us some things Dan don't.

Read the Rev verses, then read the Dan verses below, they both saw the same thing except John wasn't shown the 1290 and 1335 days!

Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Re 10:8 ¶ And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

Re 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Re 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Re 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

Da 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Da 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Da 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three

hundred and five and thirty days.

Da 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

I don't think but what I wasted my time with some but I keep at this because I know it benefits some.

His Blessings I pray to all who will see.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs,

First of all, I have read these passages dozens of times, so there was no need to quote the whole thing, just cite them. Secondly, you are right, I do not see those passages the same way that you do. What you say is clear is extremely "fuzzy" to me, and does not make much sense. You do realize that the Spirit of Prophecy applies the tribulation that is "cut short" to have more than one application? Jesus was speaking to the Disciples and other Jews primarily, and they digested Jesus' words to apply to the tribulation of their day. Did it apply to their day? It most certainly did. If this can have a dual application, then why not a triple? Ellen White applies the tribulation that is shortened not only to the Dark Ages, but also to the very last great day.

Your problem is that you are determined to pidgin-hole these prophecies to only have one application, and that is what is preventing you to see the principles of repetition. I have already gone over time and time again how there are 3 Abominations of Desolations throughout Bible Prophecy. Consistency demands 3 tribulations with this, and also therefore it makes sense that these days be cut short in all these instances.

I'm also not sure what makes you think I am not a full-fledged Historicist. Actually, I am a true Adventist Historicist--which is "advanced Historicism", unlike the old-school Presbyterian Historicism which allegorizes almost everything away, and leaves nothing for the future.

Historicism allows for much prophecy to be yet fulfilled, but Historicism does not allow you to take the 42 months and make it 1260 days.

If you do this, you become worse than Laodicean, and join hands with Rome and their Jesuit Psuedepigraphal mythology. Such a teaching will eventually lead us back into the arms of Rome. To forget that the 42 months applied to the Papacy from 538 to 1798 is to destroy the very foundations of Adventism.

Also, earlier you said that you are "not a Historicist". Yet you said that the time period in Daniel 7 is based on the year/day principle.

You do realize that if you are "not a Historicist", that makes you a full-fledged Futurist?

And do you know what full-fledged Futurists believe Gibs?

#1. They believe the Time, Times, and the Dividing of Time of Daniel 7:25 are the SAME as the 42 months of Revelation 13.

#2. They believe that both of these same time periods are FUTURE.

#3. They believe that this 1260 day time period is the SECOND-HALF of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Do you believe these things Gibs?

If not, then what does that make you? A Historicist? Well, you denied being a Historicist, so what does that make you?

I'll tell you what it makes you.

It makes you into a "nothing". You stand on a confusing platform that is undefinable.

You will leave your audiences to whom you preach the Third Angel's Message in a total state of confusion, and they will not be able to grasp your messages because the inconsistency renders it impossible.

[Lysimachus]

Sky, IF one wants to use her writings for a foundation to understand prophecy, then I don't see any argument with what you replied with here. But think of this please, should any of us have the gall to add to or subtract from the words of Revelation? Sure, the plagues will not hurt EGW because she is dead and it only affects the living wicked AND those who added or subtracted, even if they use someone's words now long gone.

In case you didn't notice, Sky did not quote Ellen White in the above post. He quoted A.T. Jones.

[skyblue888]

And in this fashion and along this course of development, which step by step was the only possible outcome in the nature of the situation as it stood, came the development of the beast in the early days of the Christian dispensation. Of course the majority of people who before did not have enough religion to take them to church now went, for they did not have enough religion in them either to discern the nature of this force to offer any resistance to it.

But now the true people of God began to find themselves in difficulty. They could obey a civil law that forbade work on the first day of the week, and the law that forbade them from going to the circuses and the theaters did not touch them either, but when a law came into being that demanded that they worship on the false sabbath, then they found that they had to disobey that law.

So they found themselves suffering the civil penalties of breaking a law that the church had caused the State to enact in the selfish interests of a church which, having lost the power of God, had no right to even exist as a church. And when the church found that such punishments as were inflicted did not cause the true ones to waver and to obey, then, in the ultimate, they brought in the death decree and as history attests, they slew with savage and heartless cruelty the thousands who would not yield but would obey God rather than man no matter what the price might be.

Such was the history of the setting up of the beast. "It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy." The Great Controversy, p.443.

Thus it was with the setting up of the beast and so will it be in the setting up of the image to the beast. The one is a matter of the past, but the other is yet in the future and terrible will be the repetition of this thing.

In the historical word we have the story of the rise of the beast. In the Prophetic word we have the story of the rise of the image. It is time to spend a little time and space on the story of the rise of the image. This will be the subject of the next posts.

sky

[Kevin H]

1844 was to be the END of time prophecies. Now both Historism and Dispensationalism are products of the loss of Biblical history. But Historism was based on when we had more knowlege and is the thread the Holy Spirit used to guide us through the dark ages, while Dispensationalism was an attack on where the Holy Spirit was leading us.

Now that we are living in the time where the ancient world has been rediscovered, we need to study the Bible to see what it MEANT to the original audience, was it latter re-applied and how could it have been fulfilled in the re-application, or even if there are reapplications. It is critical that we study the artical in the SDABC "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" And take the principles of the chapter (which gives a macro, broad overview) to a micro, or more specific, applications to the local situations in scripture in how God was willing to finish the Great Controversy in those days and how the Lord could have come err this.

I do not remember all the details, had it taught to me in College but not where I got beyond the overview of the classes, but Daniel 9-12 is teaching what WOULD have happened had Jesus been accepted. All the time periods could have ended by the end of the 70 weeks of years. They are all related to the sanctuary system. Some we should apply the cyclic (such as year-day) principle to. Others are litteral days with in that year-day cycle. Some things were fulfilled, others were NOT fulfilled due to Jesus not being accepted and will be reapplied, either over history, or in the very end of time.

I do not have the answers, but these are the tools that will come up with the answers and not either set up camp where our pioneers fell asleep, or to get off the track into speculation.

[Lysimachus]

1844 was to be the END of time prophecies. Now both Historism and Dispensationalism are products of the loss of Biblical history.

Keep in mind, Kevin H, that Historicism is just a "platform" with which to build truth on. It is not the architectural structure itself. Same with Futurism. Dispensationalism was built on top of Futurism, and Adventism was built on top of Historicism.

So it would not be correct to say that both Historicism and Dispensationalism are on the same level, as "products of the loss of Biblical history".

Much truth is yet to be discovered, but if that truth is not built on the platform and foundation laid down by the Reformers in identifying the Man of Sin as the Papacy, then we are going nowhere in our search for greater light. In a nutshell, if your doctrines are not built on the Historicist platform, then it is impossible to identify the Roman Church as the Antichrist/Beast/Man of Sin/Son of Perdition/Harlot/Little Horn of Daniel, Revelation, and 2 Thessalonians 2.

The platform of Historicism is what makes it possible to expose and identify the Man of Sin. Without it, the spotlight goes right off the Papacy.

[Kevin H]

Yes Lysimachus, I meant to have a qualifying word for Historisism that I forgot to add, that some of the applications over the years were victims of the time of not knowing exegesis. However Historism did start out closer to the time where people not forget that much about the Bible and it was the principle that they passed on that lead us through the years. And yes, it does point out the papacy, although we can argue over whether the papacy is the beast, or if it is only a part of the 5th head and will play a ROLE in the development of the 7th.

Futurism places these texts the Protestants (and even several Catholics) applied to the pope, far in the future to have it not apply to the pope. Futurism was build on Historism, and took only a part of it and built something new from it. Too many Adventists are going to speculation and while building on Historisism, it ends up being some strange interpetations that we would not have if we did exegesis first.

Also, since God has given us exegesis that we can build on, the Holy Spirit will no longer bless traditional historism like he use to. We need to start out with studying what it meant, and from that make applications as to what it means to us. When Revelation was read in the churches the first time the people did not go home saying "The Pope is coming, the Pope is coming and after that the United States" nor did they go home scratching their heads saying "I wonder what that was all about?" But they went home saying "the Lord is doing these things right now!

[skyblue888]

So far in this study it has been noted that the Image of the Beast is a LANDMARK in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll. It is accomplished when the churches, having secured the support of the power of the State, have the NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW passed and enforced. Such an act, we learned, would bring about NATIONAL RUIN. It will have brought the powers of church and state to the POINT OF NO RETURN and there will be left only the calling out of the true children of God before the judgments on Babylon THE GREAT fall in deadly earnest and destroy her completely.

Such a point of disaster will not have been reached in a moment. Rather, it is the outworking of certain forces over quite a period of time and the object of our study at the moment is to understand this outworking, so that we can follow it as it develops and know that all things are at hand in the final finishing movements of this earth's history.

We are fortunate that already such an outworking has taken place as we have already seen from the words of The Great Controversy, 443,444, the development of the Beast before it. There we read, "It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government, and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy, the beast of Rev.13:1-10. So apostasy in the church will prepare the way for the Image of the Beast."

The word "so" means, "in just the same way." This then is but to say that as the apostasy in the early church led to the rise of the papacy, so, in exactly the same way, apostasy in the modern church will lead to the rise of the Image of the papacy.

Having seen then the history of the development of the rise of the apostasy and the consequent rise of the beast in the early centuries, let us now study the step by step development of the rise of the apostasy in the modern church which will lead to the rise of the Image of the Beast in this our day.

sky

[Gibs]

One of the mistakes of Historics is that the Catholic church is made everything. Well they sure are apostate but they may not even be half of Babylon the Great. There is a lot bigger picture here to see. We had Babylon before our time and some say the two Babylons are one and take in most of the world in her tenacles and is now Babylon the Great.

Which in other words is our Great New One World Order that the whole world is gone bonkers to be of.

Of which the Remnant Church must stand out of.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

What does this mean?: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!" (Rev.18:2) Why two of them? And how come "Woe, woe, the great city Babylon.."? Why the two "woes"?

[skyblue888]

That's right Gibs, Babylon the Great of Rev.18 embraces a lot more than the Catholic Church. This will be covered in the next posts.

Between the years 1833-1844, the Lord sent to the Protestant Churches who were then the professed churches of God in the world, the glorious light of the Advent message. Had that light been received as the Lord planned that it should, then those churches would have become a mighty power in the world, soon the gospel would have been carried to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, and the kingdom of Christ would have been established.

But the light that was sent was unwelcome and was fiercely rejected and this led to a serious spiritual fall.

"The second angel's message of Revelation 14 was frist preached in the summer of 1844, and it then had a direct application to the churches of the United States, where the warning of the Judgment had been most generally rejected, and where the declensions in the churches had been most rapid. But the message of he second angel did not reach its complete fulfilment in 1844. The churches then experienced a moral fall, in consequence of their refusal of the light of the Advent message; but THAT FALL WAS NOT COMPLETE. As they have continued to reject the special truths for this time they have fallen LOWER AND LOWER." G.C.389.

That rejection of light there, was a step which could only end in the full formation of the Image of the Beast. There is no possible outcome than this. The setting up ot the Image of the Beast and all the oppression and persecution which will go with it, was from that moment on, an unavoidable certainty. It is such not by any arbitrary decree of God, nor even basically by the will and choice of man, but simply because effect will follow the cause in this field as surely as in any other field. That is to say, just as surely as the cause is there, then just as surely wil the effects follow.

To understand this let us follow the matter through step by step. The message and the warning which came to those people in 1844 was the gospel of Jesus Christ, the power of God unto salvation from sin. Romans 1:16; Matt.1:21. Now, if they who needed it so much refused to receive it, then they did not have it. That is obvious. The churches stood devoid of power when they refused to accept the power of God which was ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5.

Pitted against the church is the power of sin and the church is in the world to save men from sin. It has no other right to exist than this. Now either the church has that power or she does not. It is not the possession of great and splendid organization, not the number of people that serve the church, nor the amount of money under her command, nor any other of these things which gives to a church such power, but the acceptance of the truth as it is brought to the church by God, not the acceptance of the mere theory of the truth but of the living experience of the truth which brings the power of God.

In 1844, the churches rejected the truth of God in the experience and power of it and thus were left without the power of God to combat the power of sin. It must therefore follow that sin must make mighty inroads into their domains, so that wickedness and immorality would increase and prosper. This is the only possible outworking of the situation. Such a cause must be followed by the certain effects of that cause. History itself attests to this in the past as we read:

"The iniquity and spiritual darkness that prevailed under the supremacy of Rome were the inevitable result of her suppression of the Sriptures." G.C.586.

As it was in the past so it will be in the future for the same rejection of the truth of God will bring the same sad results.

The message of the everlasting gospel as brought in the light of the Advent truth of 1844, called upon men to obey the commandments of God including the Seventh Day Sabbath. Truly understood, received and obeyed, the Sabbath of God is the evidence of the presence of the power of God, and therefore its place in the teaching of the last message to the world is vital and necessary. It has to be there or the message is incomplete and lacking in vital power and efficiency.

But the Sabbath is particularly objectionable to those that reject the message and they are led to cast aside the whole law in order to avoid the claims of the Sabbath. But the work of Sabbath reform extends nevertheless and the more it does then the more it is resisted by the churches. In this way their rejection of the truth of God becomes the more confirmed, and inevitably the power of sin makes the more determined and effective inroads into the world. Thus the very churches that are in the world as the channels by which the salvation of God is to come to the world become the very means by which sin is strengthened and entrenched.

Thus we read, "As the work of Sabbath reform extends, this rejection of the Divine law to avoid the claims of the fourth commandment will become well-nigh universal. The teachings of religious leaders have opened the door to infidelity, to spiritualism, and to contempt of God's holy law, and upon these leaders rests a fearful responsibility for the iniquity that exists in the Christian world." G.C.587.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Just what does the word "Babylon" mean? And what is "that great city"?

[Gibs]

One of the set of most ignored verses is the Sabbath commandment. It is just a sample of how people will put such a twist on things they want their way instead of respectin the Word of God.

Ex 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

One of the most sbubtle ones is Jesus is the Sabbath rest, but they don't recognize it isn't a Sabbath rest if it is not in the Sabbath day.

The ire of the world against the Sabbath keeping is growing fast now. I work on some other forums and it brings the ire of the dragon quickly, it seems to sting or something like that.

Adherance is a must to the unchanging Word of God that only can be fully relied upon.

Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

That's right Gibs.

Up till 1844, the churches were strong teachers of the obligation of the law and the period is recognized as one of the most circumspect and moral of history. True, there was the worldly class who lived wickedly but the hard core of society was religious and law abiding. It was a period when there were men and women of decided strength of character and moral worth.

But when came the added light of the Advent message in 1844, and as has been noted already, the churches led out in a rejection of that message. Ever since there has been an ever increasing crime wave around the world. The family unit is no longer stable, juvenile as well as adult crime is of such fearful proportion to be a major concern of the powers that be. Divorce is common, and violence is rampant the world over. And all this is rapidly on the increase.

These are facts and no one can honestly deny them. The world is not getting to be a better place. It is getting worse and worse at a fearful pace. 2 Tim.3:1-5.

We are in the last days and this situation exists right now. The common man, the man in the street can see it. The officials can see it. The church can see it and the leaders of the nations can see it. Everyone can see it. And it is because they can, and because they are disturbed by it that it becomes the issue on political platforms. Every election in the United States stresses the need for the restoration of Law and Order.

Men will advance a number of different reasons for its presence or even be at a loss to give a reason at all, but let it be known on the authority of the Word of God that there is but one reason for it and that is the rejection of the truth sent to the churches from heaven. This is the reason. Having rejected the truth of God, they have rejected the power of God and thus have no method of defense against the power of sin in their lives, and therefore, the ever increasing crime, violence and immorality provides an ever strengthening pressure to come up with an answer that will either solve the situation or at least remove the blame from the churches.

This brings us to the next step in the inexorable march to the setting up of the Image of the Beast. They have rejected the truth of God, the Sabbath of God, the power of God. The barrier to sin removed, it has swept in like a flood. Now what?

Already quoted above is this statement, "The teachings or religious leaders have opened the door to infidelity, to spiritualism, and to contempt of God's holy law; and upon these leaders rests a fearful responsibility for the iniquity that exists in the 'Christian' world." G.C.587.

Now there immediately folows this word, "Yet this very class put forth the claim that the fast spreading corruption is largely attributable to the desecration of the so-called 'Christian sabbath,' and that the enforcement of Sunday would greatly improve the morality of society." G.C.587.

So here the churches, having rejected the Sabbath of God and the power of God, add further sin to the first sin by charging the trouble to Sunday desecration when it is not that at all. This is an act in support of Sunday and therefore is a further act in the rejection of the Sabbath, the truth and the power of God.

This then can only drive them still further away from God, still more firmly and deeply into the power of sin and thus the more widely open the door to the inroads of immorality, sin and spiritualism. Thus the churches are found to be in a descending spiral of ever frightening proportions until a crisis is reached of such dimension as will demand drastic and inevitable action. And that action will be the call for the enforcement of the Sunday, which, when it is accomplished, will be the setting up of the Image of the Beast.

sky

[skyblue888]

This crisis will force the churches to the point where they will have to have the Image set up in their behalf or they themselves will cease to exist. It will be a matter of their own survival. So serious will the situation have become, so desperate the plight to which the world will have come, that something will have to be done to meet the situation.

On every hand the church will see faith in her institutions and her authority fading away. Conscious of the fact that they are powerless to reach and hold the people, conscious of the fact that they cannot stem the rising tide of evil, the churches will be forced to seek power where it can be found. But they have rejected the power of God and have confirmed themselves in that rejection to the point whre they have no mind to confess the sin and return to the Lord. Therefore they must find some other power and they will. The only other power that is available is the power of force, the means whereby a man is compelled to do that which it is not in him do do.

But such power is vested, not in the church, but in the state. It is not the way of God to force anyone to do anything. God desires only willing and cheerful obedience. He looks for a people who are willing to be made willing by trusting wholly in the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Savior.

But the power of the state is such that it can obtain obedience to its laws only by force. It has no other means. Therefore, when the church has lost the power of God, the power to appeal to the heart of man, and needs the power of force, then she will go to the State and obtain from it the power which it has, the power of force, and, when she has obtained that, then she will have set up the image of the beast. But such a situation will not have arrived in a moment. It will be the culmination of a long process beginning with the rejection of the power of God, followed by the consequent inroads of immorality, vice, spiritualism, violence, rebellion, and such like.

If they were but to see that this is the outworking of their own mischievious course of action and thus be led to repent of that which caused the problem, that one wrong action leads to another and then another until the matter reaches crisis proportions and a desperate church calls in the power of the State to do that which she is powerless to do.

This is the procedure, long and remorseless, which leads up to the Image of the Beast. Already this is well advanced and shortly we shall see the fruition of it all.

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

Just what does the word "Babylon" mean? And what is "that great city"?

The fundamental meaning of Babylon is "confusion". There seems to be a great deal of confusion about that...

[Dr. Rich]

I do not agree Sky. Sure, they were following what they believed, but their idea of the sabbath was the same as most christians today--they just don't care. Not keeping the 4th commandment is practicing lawlessness. Just because it was tradition does not make it the truth, as in Fidiler On The Roof.