Increased Light? On What?

[Gibs]

True Samie, if the scripture don't plainly hold it up, it is not light. His Word is our light to know and to be led by.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

"As the movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided, the law will be INVOKED against commandment-keepers."

When this statement is read carefully it is seen that it does not say that the Sunday law is passed at this time. It says that the movevent for Sunday enforcement becomes more and more bold and decided, and as it does, the law is "invoked" against commandement-keepers.

The movement for Sunday law enforcement does not cease to exist when it has succeeded in having the Sunday law passed, especially when all that has been gained at that time is a general law. After the passing of the law the movement will remain very active in the field to see that the law is enforced, and as violations of it appear the movement will plead for more teeth to be put into that law so as to cover hitherto unforseen possibilities and infringements as is the case with all law making.

Having gained their earlier demands, and as they are confronted with this powerful protest from a minority group, the movement does indeed become more bold and decided in its efforts to enforce the already existing Sunday law. Hitherto the law was not directed against the Sabbath-keeper, but rather at those who had no regard for the worship of God at all, but now there is need to direct it against the SABBATH-KEEPER.

So as the now bolder and more decided movers for the Sunday law see this threat, they go to the civil power and succeed in having them "invoke" the law against the Sabbath-keeper. Now the word "invoke" means very literally "to call in" and you cannot call in something which does not already exist. The law does not exist primarily as a direct weapon to be used against Sabbath-keepers, but now that they have shown that they are powerfully and decidedly against the Sunday law enforcement, the law is called in specifically against them for the first time.

to be continued.

Now the people of God will find themselves in the courts of law testifying for their faith. This is an effort on the part of the devil to silence their witness but, because they refuse to be intimidated, they instead give a powerful testimony for the truth, resulting in thousands hearing the message who would otherwise never hear it with some of them deciding to stand for the commandments of God. Thus, instead of stopping the message, these means only serve to further impell it forward.

Again we ask the question, Has the judgment of the living commenced by this time? To answer we must ask the other question, Has the great final test come to the people of God at this stage? The fact is that they have not yet even come to the buy and sell decree which is a still lesser test than the death decree especially in the context in whcih the death decree will be imposed upon the people of God. In fact, that which makes the death deacree, as we shall eventually see, so great a test is not so much the threat of death in itself but the implications and the circumstances under which it is imposed. This we shall understand better when we come to it.

But for now we wish to study the evidence which shows that the buy-and-sell decree is still something in the future at the point we are studying. It says that they are threatened with FINES and IMPRISONMENT. The imposition of a fine is the punishment of taking away from a man a certain portion of his money which there would not be the least point in doing if he was under a decree which forbade him to either buy or sell. Under those conditions his money would be completely worthless to him and there would be no pusnishment in taking it away from him. In other words a buy and sell decree is a greater punishment so that as this stage that is a further development which will appear in due time.

It would be well to recall again at this stage the statement which reads:

"Because they refuse to break His law in obedience to earthly powers, they will be forbidden to buy or sell. It will finally be decreed that they be put to death." Desire of Ages,121,122.

This statement clearly shows that the pressure on the people of God mounts progressively toward the ultimate decree of death. The world takes a severe measure against them which they expect will serve the purpose of silencing them, but when this fails, they adopt a more severe measure still, and then still more severe as they find themselves unable to silence the voice of reproof and warning.

By combining this statement with the information we have studied from The Great Controversy, we have the following order of events revealed:

At first the law is passed not against Sabbath-keepers but against the irreligious. The loud cry begins. The people of God refuse to honor it, for it would mean that they would have to dishonor God to do so. More than this, in the mighty power of the Spirit, they protest the law and show that it is fraught with disaster. The Sunday Law movement meets this first of all with argument, then with personal persecution, then with law suits, the threat of fines and imprisonment and then, because they still refuse to break God's law in order to obey a law of the land, they impose the buy and sell decree and when that too fails to silence them, they ulitmately impose the death decree, which, becomes the most severe and terrible test which anyone has ever faced in human history apart from Jesus upon the cross. Others in the past have faced and stood the test of death decrees but never one like this one.

sky

[skyblue888]

From this time on the battles rage with a fierce and terrible intensity. The enemies of God are fully aroused and nothing is too cruel or too desperate for them to use in their mad purpose of silencing the dissenters.

"Conscientious obedience to the Word of God will be treated as rebellion. Blinded by Satan, the parent will exercise harshness toward the believing child, the master of mistress will oppress the commandment-keeping servant. Affection will be alianated; children will be disinherited and driven from home. The words of Paul will be literally fulfilled.'And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.' As the defenders of truth refuse to honour the Sunday Sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled and some will be treated as slaves. To human wisdom, all this now seems impossible; but as the restraining Spirit of God shall be withdrawn from men, and they shall be under the control of Satan, who hates the divine precepts, there will be strange developments. The heart can be very cruel when God's fear and love are removed." p.608.

This is the prospect for all those who in these last days will be true to God. God does not promise us a sweet and rosy path to the kingdom but rather one which is fraught with every kind of hardship, peril and persecution. It is a path which will require the greatest faith, courage and patience which must be developed in the present time if we are going to endure that day.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

True Samie, if the scripture don't plainly hold it up, it is not light. His Word is our light to know and to be led by.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I find it interesting that when the Jewish leaders questioned John the B about who he was and even asked him if he was the Elijah type, John said no, that he was just a voice crying in the wilderness. Later, Jesus told three of his apostles that John the B was indeed the Elijah type but that the Jewish leaders did not recognize him as such. Then Jesus states that the Elijah type will come in the future and will restore all things. (Matt. 17)

Also, John the B. did not give any prophecy other than what had already been given, so he did not give out any new light on anything. All he did was refresh their memory to what the OT prophets said. Later, John the B even questioned who he was and who Jesus was as Jesus allowed John the B to be killed. This upset Peter and when Jesus tried to tell him what really was going to happen, Peter had a fit about it because Peter was believing in what John had been teaching--plan A, from Dan. 9:24.

Could it be that when the last Elijah type presents himself (Matt. 24:45), that he too (yes there is only one) will not know who he is and will be doing what John the B did, causeing people to remember what Jesus said? I doubt if the leaders of the SDA church will know who this person is, just as the Jewish leaders didn't know who John B was. But one thing we know for sure, is that this ONE person will be feeding his fellow servants real truth that is different than what they have heard before and are believing.

EGW could not have been this one person because she is dead. This one person will be alive at the time Jesus comes like a thief.

So why arn't Adventists searching for this ONE person right now? Wouldn't the message this ONE person be useful to know? Wasn't it useful to know that Jesus was the Christ as what John B said?

[Lysimachus]

Some examples of "new light" that undercuts old light:

Futurism. An abhorrent doctrine from Rome.

[Gibs]

Historicism shuts out any new light is the problem where there is some prophecy not yet fulfilled. Historicism came from the fact they had in mind it all had to be fulfilled by 1844 and no rescind has ever been made. Pride does not rescind, it runs deep and stubborn.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Historicism shuts out any new light is the problem where there is some prophecy not yet fulfilled. Historicism came from the fact they had in mind it all had to be fulfilled by 1844 and no rescind has ever been made. Pride does not rescind, it runs deep and stubborn.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Historicism is a description of the Past, the Present, and the Future. Sister White delineates this very well concerning the book of Revelation, that it is a book of the Past, the Present, and the Future.

Much new light can be revealed concerning the future, so long as it does not undermine what was originally placed as "past", and "present", and lifts them from those settings and reapplies them to the future.

Possibility for dual, if not triple applications? Possibly. So long as the original interpretation is not undermined.

[Dr. Rich]

Most if not all duel applications of prophecy are void as this would violate one of the rules for understanding true end time prophecy. The book of Revelation is all about time, the time of the end. Yes, chapter 12 is an outline of the history and present time and the end, but everything else is all in the future.

Notice that the book itself (Revelation) was directed ONLY to the bondservants living in the last generation? It was therefore not directed to EGW or the others living in the past. None of the 7 plagues will affect anyone who is not among the living when it happens.

The warning against those believing that all, or most of it has already taken place is the 7th one found in Rev. 3. So yes, pride is what is causing those to say they are in need of nothing because EGW said it all.

[Lysimachus]

Most if not all duel applications of prophecy are void as this would violate one of the rules for understanding true end time prophecy. The book of Revelation is all about time, the time of the end. Yes, chapter 12 is an outline of the history and present time and the end, but everything else is all in the future.

Notice that the book itself (Revelation) was directed ONLY to the bondservants living in the last generation? It was therefore not directed to EGW or the others living in the past. None of the 7 plagues will affect anyone who is not among the living when it happens.

The warning against those believing that all, or most of it has already taken place is the 7th one found in Rev. 3. So yes, pride is what is causing those to say they are in need of nothing because EGW said it all.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

It's very simple.

Past, Present, Future. This is the nature of God.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Most of Revelation began right after John and stretched to the end of time:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

We'd save ourselves a lot of trouble if we'd just read the texts.

[Johnnboy]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Historicism shuts out any new light is the problem where there is some prophecy not yet fulfilled. Historicism came from the fact they had in mind it all had to be fulfilled by 1844 and no rescind has ever been made. Pride does not rescind, it runs deep and stubborn.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Historicism is a description of the Past, the Present, and the Future. Sister White delineates this very well concerning the book of Revelation, that it is a book of the Past, the Present, and the Future.

Much new light can be revealed concerning the future, so long as it does not undermine what was originally placed as "past", and "present", and lifts them from those settings and reapplies them to the future.

Possibility for dual, if not triple applications? Possibly. So long as the original interpretation is not undermined.

I agree with this 100%! This approach would be on the principle from the text:

Ecclesiastes 3:15 "That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."

[/i]"In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form." COL 127, 128

This is such a tremendous statement!

[Lysimachus]

I agree with this 100%! This approach would be on the principle from the text:

Ecclesiastes 3:15 "That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."

"In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form." COL 127, 128

This is such a tremendous statement!

Supreme work!

I just wish that Gibs could understand this principle with the 42 months of Revelation 13. =/

[Johnnboy]

Originally Posted By: Johnnboy

Sky said,

“The last feast is the feast of Tabernacles...It is the last feast and its antitype is the jubile. These are the feasts.

There are no others.”

As I mentioned in my last post, in Leviticus 25:8-10, the Day of Atonement is connected with the Jubile, but not the Feast of Tabernacles.

“And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years;...Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth [day] of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound...” Leviticus 25:8-10

So I cannot agree with your statement, as you give no inspired evidence for it.

There is much more to understand in regard to the fall feasts in the seventh Sabbath year, the year of release, see Deuteronomy 31: 10-13—when the law of God was taught to the men, women, children, and the strangers during the Feast of Tabernacles, in the seventh Sabbath year—the 49th year, not the 50th year, the Jubile year. So in the antitype, in the seventh Sabbath year, in the Feast of Tabernacles, there is still probation for some people to be taught the law of God, specifically, the importance of receiving the seal of God and refusing the mark of the beast.

Sky, do you see this?

It must be “in like manner”—GC 399, 400, therefore, we must study “the manner” in which the Messiah fulfilled the feasts relating to His first advent, in order to understand “the manner” in which the types relating to His second advent will be completely fulfilled. The feasts were fulfilled not only as to “event” but as to the “time”. The fulfillment of the types relating to the second advent must be consistent with the type and with the Messiah's fulfillment of the types that He fulfilled at His first advent.

We have to believe what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy tell us, we cannot go speculating on our own imaginations.

Are we not in the time of the anti-typical day of atonement since 1844 and will it not end when Christ makes the final atonement at the end of the loud cry at the time of the great final test? That being so, the feast of tabernacles begin at the deliverance of God's people at the time of the fifth plague.

So I really dont see your point as to the timing of this feast.

Sorry jb

sky

I'll try to make a more understandable explanation with inspired evidence.

Yes, I believe we are in the anti-typical Day of Atonement since 1844 in a general sense. We are being investigated as we go about our daily lives. This is only the investigative portion of the judgment for the living, it is not the final judgment for the living.

“What souls are there who will have their sins unforgiven and their names blotted out of the book of life? We do not know what we are doing. If we have unclean hands we cannot enter heaven....Do we sense that we are to make characters every day, that God is watching the development of character and weighing moral worth, and that our lives are daguerreotyped on the books of heaven as your face is stamped on the polished plate of the artist?” Miscellaneous Collections 1888, p 158

But if we believe the statement “in like manner” from the Great Controversy 399, 400, we have to recognize a fulfillment of these important events in salvation exactly as, and when, the type was observed.

As I mentioned in a previous post, during the Feast of Tabernacles ONLY in the Sabbath year or 7th year, the law of God was taught.

“At the end of [every] seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that [is] within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: And [that] their children, which have not known [any thing], may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God,...” Deuteronomy 31:10-13

This text tells us that ONLY in the Sabbath year or the 7th year, this teaching of the law was to be done, so that those who have not known would hear and learn to obey this law.

More than this, in Numbers 29:12-38, the sacrifices which were to be offered each day of the Feast of Tabernacles are delineated in great detail showing that there was still blood for the forgiveness of sins, although every day the number of sacrifices decreased until on the final day there was only one.

This evidence indicates that there is still probation for some individuals all through the duration of the Feast of Tabernacles, so the main fulfillment of this feast would be in the Sabbath year before the final atonement while there is still probation for some individuals to learn to obey the law of God. This main fulfillment would be in the Sabbath year (the 49th year) just before the year of Jubile.

Remember that the anti-type MUST match the type for the main fulfillment.

Sky, do you see what the inspired evidence shows?

[Samie]

...

"In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form." COL 127, 128

This is such a tremendous statement!

Yes, true indeed.

But were all what we consider 'old truths' really the truth? What if some of those 'old truths' are shown from Scriptures to be not the truth? Should we just continue to hang on to them as 'old truths' and reject the real Scriptural truth that had come?

[Johnnboy]

Historicism shuts out any new light is the problem where there is some prophecy not yet fulfilled. Historicism came from the fact they had in mind it all had to be fulfilled by 1844 and no rescind has ever been made. Pride does not rescind, it runs deep and stubborn.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I do see what you are saying. There is too much inspired evidence for more fulfillment of prophecy after 1844.

"The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Revelation 13:4-10 quoted.] This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place [Revelation 13:11, 15-17 quoted]" MS 88, 1897

[Johnnboy]

Originally Posted By: Johnnboy

...

"In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form." COL 127, 128

This is such a tremendous statement!

Yes, true indeed.

But were all what we consider 'old truths' really the truth? What if some of those 'old truths' are shown from Scriptures to be not the truth? Should we just continue to hang on to them as 'old truths' and reject the real Scriptural truth that had come?

"In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the "old landmarks" when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks". CW 30.1

[skyblue888]

From this time on the battles rage with a fierce and terrible intensity. The enemies of God are fully aroused and nothing is too cruel or too desperate for them to use in their mad purpose of silencing the dissenters.

"Conscientious obedience to the Word of God will be treated as rebellion. Blinded by Satan, the parent will exercise harshness toward the believing child, the master of mistress will oppress the commandment-keeping servant. Affection will be alianated; children will be disinherited and driven from home. The words of Paul will be literally fulfilled.'And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.' As the defenders of truth refuse to honour the Sunday Sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled and some will be treated as slaves. To human wisdom, all this now seems impossible; but as the restraining Spirit of God shall be withdrawn from men, and they shall be under the control of Satan, who hates the divine precepts, there will be strange developments. The heart can be very cruel when God's fear and love are removed." p.608.

This is the prospect for all those who in these last days will be true to God. God does not promise us a sweet and rosy path to the kingdom but rather one which is fraught with every kind of hardship, peril and persecution. It is a path which will require the greatest faith, courage and patience which must be developed in the present time if we are going to endure that day.

sky

________________

There will be a universal hatred of God's servants. When the loud cry begins it will be a glorious experience at first for the message will go with all-conquering power against the citadels of wrong, but the devil will not be asleep nor will he stand idly by as the messengers of righteousness go forth with the truth. At this time the Spirit of God has been still further withdrawn from the earth with the result that the calamities and disasters are more frequent and more terrible so that the earth is being reduced to poverty and starvation.

"And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils. The class that have provoked the displeasure of God will charge all their troubles upon those whose obedience to God's commandments is a perpetual reproof to transgressors. It will be declared that men are offending God by violation of the Sunday Sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced, and that THOSE WHO PRESENT THE CLAIMS OF THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT, THUS DESTROYING REVERENCE FOR SUNDAY, ARE TROUBLERS OF THE PEOPLE, preventing their restoration to divine favour and temporal prosperity. Thus the accusations urged of old against the servants of God will be repeated, and upon grounds equally well established; 'And it came to pass, that when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou and thou father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim.' As the wrath of the people shall be excited by false charges, they will pursue a course very similar to that which apostate Israel pursued toward Elijah." The Great Controversy,590.

The fearful drought which reduced Israel of old to such dire physical strains was the direct result of the sin of the king and the people, yet they blamed the trouble upon the very man who was giving the warning which, if but heeded would have saved them from all their troubles.

So it will be again and the whole of the world will be stirred in enmity against the Sabbath-keepers. The fearful straits to which the world will be brought will be caused by the sin of the leaders and the people, but they will blame all of their troubles on the small group of God's people who will have been the very ones who will be giving the warning which, if but heeded would have saved the world from all of its troubles.

Never in human history this side of the flood have so many of the world's population enjoyed such affluence, comfort, and plenty. They are not accustomed to living in hardship yet, this is the very generation which will be forced to feel the pinching hand of want and need. Imagine the fury which will mount toward the true people of God whom they will erroneously imagine to be the cause of all their troubles. Thus the storm clouds will gather, black and heavy for their final bursting over the heads of the true children of God. Then will the courage and faith of all be tested; then will come the time when "a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message' will "abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition." p.608.

Of this we shall study further in the next posts.

sky

[skyblue888]

If there is one thing which should be clear in the study of the development of the struggle between the forces of the God of Hosts and the powers of the kingdom of darkness during the Loud Cry period, it is that the pressure upon the true people of God mounts with increasing severity as time passes. We have seen that the Sunday law is decreed in the first case as a means of giving to the churches a power over the people which they have lost because of their apostasy, and as such will not have in mind the people of God, who at that time will be so few in number and scattered in the world as to be deemed unworthy of consideration. But to the stunned surprise of the worldly ministry, this unknown and unrecognized minority will appear invested with the power of the Holy Spirit with no mean measure.

At first the opponents of truth will still seriously underestimate this UNFORSEEN DEVELOPMENT, and will confidently imagine that it can be met with argument. As this will prove to be of no use at all in the case of any and every honest seeker to the truth, their enemies will be driven to the use of persecution, and then recourse to the laws of the land. By this time the true believer will find himself the object of hatred and persecution on every hand and the experience will be an exceedingly unpleasant one indeed.

But, fearful as this time will be, it will yet be only the gathering of the fearful storm which will finally break with unbriddled fury upon the children of God. Then will come the GREAT FINAL TEST, a test of such severity and magnitude, as will discover each and every weak character in the ranks of the Lord's army.

Then those who have been in the ranks of Sabbath keepers as foolish virgins, as tares among the wheat, as bad fish among the good, will be seen to be what they are and will leave the ranks of the people of God to become their most bitter persecutors, enemies and opponents. In fact many of them will not even wait till the storm actually bursts upon them, but seeing it approaching and reading the portents of it, will desert the ranks beforehand. This is made very clear as we read right on from the last point studied in our reference from The Great Controversy:

"As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but who have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters on nearly the same light; and when the TEST is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbath keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these APOSTATES are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them." page 608.

to be continued

[Gibs]

I just wish that Gibs could understand this principle with the 42 months of Revelation 13. =/

[BobRyan]

All light is tested against the Word of God -- the 66 books of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

If there is one thing which should be clear in the study of the development of the struggle between the forces of the God of Hosts and the powers of the kingdom of darkness during the Loud Cry period, it is that the pressure upon the true people of God mounts with increasing severity as time passes. We have seen that the Sunday law is decreed in the first case as a means of giving to the churches a power over the people which they have lost because of their apostasy, and as such will not have in mind the people of God, who at that time will be so few in number and scattered in the world as to be deemed unworthy of consideration. But to the stunned surprise of the worldly ministry, this unknown and unrecognized minority will appear invested with the power of the Holy Spirit with no mean measure.

At first the opponents of truth will still seriously underestimate this UNFORSEEN DEVELOPMENT, and will confidently imagine that it can be met with argument. As this will prove to be of no use at all in the case of any and every honest seeker to the truth, their enemies will be driven to the use of persecution, and then recourse to the laws of the land. By this time the true believer will find himself the object of hatred and persecution on every hand and the experience will be an exceedingly unpleasant one indeed.

But, fearful as this time will be, it will yet be only the gathering of the fearful storm which will finally break with unbriddled fury upon the children of God. Then will come the GREAT FINAL TEST, a test of such severity and magnitude, as will discover each and every weak character in the ranks of the Lord's army.

Then those who have been in the ranks of Sabbath keepers as foolish virgins, as tares among the wheat, as bad fish among the good, will be seen to be what they are and will leave the ranks of the people of God to become their most bitter persecutors, enemies and opponents. In fact many of them will not even wait till the storm actually bursts upon them, but seeing it approaching and reading the portents of it, will desert the ranks beforehand. This is made very clear as we read right on from the last point studied in our reference from The Great Controversy:

"As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but who have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters on nearly the same light; and when the TEST is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbath keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these APOSTATES are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them." page 608.

to be continued

It will be necessary to spend a little time and space in the study of this paragraph before we move on, as several questions raised by it need clarification. The picture here presented is that of a great shaking among the people of God which takes place, not at the beginning of the Loud Cry period but when it is well advanced, at which time "a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition."

This is to say that the loud cry church will not be a church free of unsanctified elements until the very end of its career when the gathering storm of the great final test separate the true from the mere professor. This means that the foolish virgins are still co-mingled with the wise right down to the very end.

It is true that this truth runs directly counter to the concept held by so many to the constitution of the loud cry church, which many believe will be a church in which only the pure and the holy will be found. It is reasoned that during the loud cry period that only the true and genuine would dare to stand for the truth at this time.

That such a concept is false is evident on two counts in particular. To the first case the word of God distinctly declares that the wheat and the tares will be together during this period. In the second case the pressure against the people of God is not so great at the beginning of the period as to keep out the foolish virgins. In fact, the picture is that the people of God are a triumphant and successful people during the early stages, and have the better of the situation on every hand.

Every effort of the authorities, both ecclesiastical and civil, to silence them is defeated. Prominent men, among the statesmen and lawyers, take a full stand for the message, and where great men follow the truth, others will always blindly follow. Thus the Gospel net, as it always does, will draw forth from the sea for the final separation both the good and the bad fish, who will enter into the hold of the ship, the true church, until the final test accomplishes the work of final separation.

After all, the preaching of the message of the loud cry is the preaching of the everlasting gospel as never it will have been preached before. It will be the dipping of the Gospel net into the sea of the world and will bring forth a great harvest than ever the net has drawn forth before.

By the simple law of average then, there will be more bad fish drawn forth too. It will be a period when things are really on the move with tremendous agitation and excitement. This is the very thing which attracks the foolish virgins who like to be where the action is and seeks to get on the waggon when it is evidently going somewhere. But when it appears to bog down and all appears lost then they confess themselves to have been deceived and flee back to the churches again.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

By all of this we are not to understand that the foolish virgin is to actually receive a personal infilling of the Holy Spirit in latter rain power along with the wise virgin. Such would not be possible for only those who have accepted the Gospel and have been transformed by it can in turn be used by the Spirit to proclaim a mighty message.

In the paragraph we are studying, this class who abandon their position are those who have professed the truth but have not been sanctified by it. This is the exact description of a foolish virgin.

"The class represented by the foolish virgins are NOT HYPOCRITES. They have a regard for the truth, they have advocated the truth, they are attracted to those who believe the truth, but they have not yielded to the Holy Spirit's working. They have not fallen upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, and permitted their old nature to be broken up." Christ Object Lessons, 411.

So they certainly cannot receive and be filled with the Holy Spirit in latter rain power. One would conclude then that it would be impossible for them to co-mingle with the wise as they would be painfully aware of the difference between them and those who really did have the power of God. But is this really so? At that time there will be a power to be reckoned with. They will be advocating that message and will be conscious of the power which goes with it. This they will interpret as being the power of the Spirit in them. As well they will be caught up in the excitement of the battle and will also feel the enthusiasm of that as if it was the power of the Holy Spirit in them. Thus they will go forward, thoroughly self-deceived as the foolish virgins always have, until the bursting of the FINAL STORM reveals to them and to others their lack of oil in their lamps.

These are solemn facts and it behooves every one to consider our own experience in the truth and in the light of them. If we are believers in the message of living righteousness, then we are either wise or foolish virgins. We cannot be classed as hypocrites. The hypocrites are the ones who profess to serve the Lord but reject the very messages He sends to them at a critical hour. But if we are a believer in the message for this time, then we are not of those and thus can only be either a wise or a foolish virgin.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Yes, I believe we are in the anti-typical Day of Atonement since 1844 in a general sense. We are being investigated as we go about our daily lives. This is only the investigative portion of the judgment for the living, it is not the final judgment for the living.

Johnnboy

_____________

Jon the IJ of the living does not have 2 phases. It takes place at the end of the third call of the parable of the Wedding Garment when the mission of the Gospel is completed. The parable of the Net teaches the same thing exactly:

"When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the JUDGMENT will accomplish the work of separation." C.O.L.122.

The judgment mentioned here can only be the judgment of the living.

"When the work of the Gospek is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each is forever fixed." C.O.L.123.

It is true that every day we are weighed in the balances of the sanctuary but that is not the judgment of the living per se for that judgment will take place at the end of the loud cry at the time of the great final test.

right jb?

sky

Did someone say that there is no such thing as the antitypical day of atonement?

[skyblue888]

By all of this we are not to understand that the foolish virgin is to actually receive a personal infilling of the Holy Spirit in latter rain power along with the wise virgin. Such would not be possible for only those who have accepted the Gospel and have been transformed by it can in turn be used by the Spirit to proclaim a mighty message.

In the paragraph we are studying, this class who abandon their position are those who have professed the truth but have not been sanctified by it. This is the exact description of a foolish virgin.

"The class represented by the foolish virgins are NOT HYPOCRITES. They have a regard for the truth, they have advocated the truth, they are attracted to those who believe the truth, but they have not yielded to the Holy Spirit's working. They have not fallen upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, and permitted their old nature to be broken up." Christ Object Lessons, 411.

So they certainly cannot receive and be filled with the Holy Spirit in latter rain power. One would conclude then that it would be impossible for them to co-mingle with the wise as they would be painfully aware of the difference between them and those who really did have the power of God. But is this really so? At that time there will be a power to be reckoned with. They will be advocating that message and will be conscious of the power which goes with it. This they will interpret as being the power of the Spirit in them. As well they will be caught up in the excitement of the battle and will also feel the enthusiasm of that as if it was the power of the Holy Spirit in them. Thus they will go forward, thoroughly self-deceived as the foolish virgins always have, until the bursting of the FINAL STORM reveals to them and to others their lack of oil in their lamps.

These are solemn facts and it behooves every one to consider our own experience in the truth and in the light of them. If we are believers in the message of living righteousness, then we are either wise or foolish virgins. We cannot be classed as hypocrites. The hypocrites are the ones who profess to serve the Lord but reject the very messages He sends to them at a critical hour. But if we are a believer in the message for this time, then we are not of those and thus can only be either a wise or a foolish virgin.

A second point to be considered in the study of the paragraph under discussion right here is in regard to the two separations.

There is described in this paragraph a separation in which those who have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth AS THEY SEE THE STORM APPROACHING separate themselves from the faithful and walk with them no more.

Thus a mighty shaking or separation CAUSED BY A SEVERE TEST takes place after which the loud cry church is pure and clean of all unsanctified elements and the promise is fulfilled. "Awake, awake; put on your strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean." Isaiah 52:1.

No clear understanding of this shaking, its nature and what it accomplishes can be had unless we realise the principle that there are two shakings, each with its own distinctive characteristics, coming at two entirely different points of time and in every other respect different from each other.

So that we can determine which of the two separations is being described here in the paragraph we are studying, we will first of all briefly list the main differences which are as follows:

The FIRST SEPARATION described as the dipping of the net into the sea, is accomplished by a MESSAGE sent by God to the churches and not by pressure and persecution. However, the SECOND and FINAL SEPARATION is accomplished by a TEST.

A study of the parable of the ten virgins makes this very clear. In that parable the message goes forth and both the wise and the foolish separate from the rest and the foolish virgins then co-mingled in the LOUD CRY church, just as the good and the bad fish are brought together in the ship which is a symbol also of the church. Then comes the end, when the mission of the gospel is completed, that the GREAT FINAL TEST comes to the wise and the foolish and it is seen which of them has the inward presence of the Spirit and can thus go in with the Bridegroom to the marriage.

Thus while in both the cases of the parable of the fishes and the virgins, the first separation separates the good AND the bad from the rest, the second separation separates the good FROM the bad, the wise from the foolish.

sky

[skyblue888]

It is easy to confuse the separation described in Great Controversy 608 with that in Early Writings,269-271. We would do well to make the differences very plain.

There must be no doubt in our minds that these are not the same separations either in point of time or in kind. In the first case the separation described in Early Writings takes place before the Loud Cry even begins, while the one described in The Great Controversy takes place when the Loud Cry has about come to its conclusion. There should not be the least difficulty in seeing this.

Nothing is clearer in Early Writings than that that shaking comes before the Loud Cry begins while it is equally clear that the one described in The Great Controversy takes place right down the line, distinctly separated in point of time from the other.

Equally clear is the fact that the shaking described in Early Writings is caused by the proclamation of a MESSAGE while that described in The Great Controversy is caused by the bursting upon them of a furious PERSECUTION. That the first shaking being discussed here is caused by the proclamation of a message is made clear by these words:

"I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the STRAIGHT TESTIMONY called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead to exalt the standard and to pour forth the STRAIGHT TESTIMONY. They will rise up against it and this is what will cause a SHAKING among God's people." E.W.270.

The true preaching of the Laodicean message is the preaching of the everlasting Gospel of the merits and righteousness of Christ.

"We may be active, we may do much work; but Without love, SUCH LOVE AS DWELT IN THE HEART OF CHRIST, we can NEVER be numbered with the family of Heaven." C.O.L.158.

How do we receive this love? "God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the MERITS of a crucified Saviour. LOVE springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstasy of feeling, but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." 1 S.M.354.

"We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness and learn that we must DAILY APPY to the MERITS of a crucified and risen Saviour that we may become VESSELS FIT FOR THE MASTER'S USE." Faith & Works,86.

Some have this idea that it is a message of denunciation, so that when we rise up and declare in trumpet tones the wrongs and departures of the church, we are therefore proclaiming the Laodicean message. What we have failed to see is that the Laodicean message is something far more than that, and unless we are preaching what the message really is we are not preaching the message at all.

sky

[skyblue888]

"When God gave His Son to our world, He endowed human beings with imperishable riches, riches compared with which the treasured wealth of man since the world began is NOTHINGNESS. Christ stood before the children of men with THE HOARDED LOVE OF ETERNITY and this is the treasure that, through our connection with Him, we are to receive, to reveal, and to impart." Ministry of Healing,37.

"The indwelling of the Spirit will be shown by the outflowing of heavenly love. The DIVINE FULLNESS will flow through the consecrated human agent to be given forth to others. So from every true disciple is to be diffused an Influence for life, courage, helpfulness, and true healing... Men will be CAPTIVATED by the glory of an abiding Christ, and in currents of praise and thanksgiving from the many souls THUS won to God, glory will flow back to the great Giver." C.O.L.420,419.

So unless we are preaching this message, we are not preaching the Laodicean message at all. Clear proof of this lies in the fact that so many so-called reformers have arisen proclaiming what they imagined to be the Laodicean message but which was in fact nothing more but a TIRADE OF DENUNCIATION and yet have caused no shaking at all, whereas the true preaching of the Laodicean message will cause a mighty shaking among the people of God as some will not bear the straight truth but will rise up against it.

Never in all of history has a message which consisted in denunciation ever succeeded in creating a shaking and a true reformation.

to be continued