SECC gives ordination credentials to men and women pastors

[teresaq]

Maybe we lose track of the context of the posts.

That is hardly a description of a simple servant or mere helper. The status describe by Paul was of a prominent woman in a leadership and ministry role of the early church.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

That Paul speaks of Phoebe first should be a hint of priority in Paul's mind. That he devotes more words (40 to be exact) in introducing her than he does to any other, including Priscilla and Aquila, should be a significant hint.

Priority of what? Hint of what? If you're suggesting that the first name mentioned indicates the importance of the office or responsibility they held you'll need to give other examples of this predictability throughout Scripture.Would you hold that about Peter,James, and John? In the most obvious reading of Paul's priority Phoebe is the only one mentioned that is not already in Rome. She's on a trip there in order to solicit assistance (notice she's not back at Cenchrea leading the church!)for whatever ministry she is working on and Paul is telling those in Rome to help her with WHATEVER she needs.Paul is not telling the church that Phoebe is a very important Bishop and that they must submit to her authority.Even I can understand that from the text.

It was customary to identify important persons first. More important people naturally got more said about them. If she was merely a humble servant from Cenchrea why the build up and commendations to introduce her? Why even mention a lowly servant by name? Especially a woman servant.

The KJV includes the following at the end of verse 27 - "Written to the Romans from Corinthus, [and sent] by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea." Paul apparently entrusted his letter to her to deliver (to read and explain) to the believers in Rome.

As I have said over and over, this is not a new idea that I have hatched up all on my own. I reached that conclusion on my own study and only subsequently found other sources confirming it. The respected 19th Century translator/commentator Robert Young known for exacting literal translations, translated prostatis as "leader". The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald during the time Uriah Smith was editor and James White was president of the Church published an article making the case that Phoebe was a minister and the first Bishop of Rome (one that article went even further than "bishop" and used the word "Pope".) And more recent scholars have also reached a similar conclusion that Phoebe was of considerable importance to the NT Church.

[CyberGuy]

I concur DY.

The third world countries that we helped to bring to the truth may be a stabilizing force in this rebellion, and give us a generous return on our investment. They should send missionaries here...

There is hope, friends. Many faithful people still love the Scriptures and try to walk in them.

All the best,

G

Ironic that when people in the church want to give women the same rights as their men associates have that this is called rebellion. Some of those same words were used when some women at Pacific Press sued the church over unequal pay for doing the same work as men did.

Rebellion was used to decribe these women, Then these "REBELS" Won their case and equal pay for doing the same work was mandated by the federal govenment regardles if it was in a church setting or outside.

Now these "REBELLIOUS Women" are heros in the church.

Todays rebels are tomorrows heros.

Remember Christ was a rebel in his day as were his deciples.

Going against the establishment of the church is always considered rebellious until it is accepted.

[olger]

Jesus was never a rebel against God, or His Word.

G

[Woody]

Good comment CyberGuy

[Overaged]

"Should say?"

Whatever happened to "The Bible does say..."

Apparently, that makes me an "impugner" and part of some fantasyland "Old Boys Network." So much for "WO Theology." (I am tempted to call it "WOE Theology."

[Overaged]

Jesus was never a rebel against God, or His Word.

G

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: olger

Jesus was never a rebel against God, or His Word.

G

[Overaged]

Nice Woody! Where did you get that one? lol

[Woody]

Nice Woody! Where did you get that one? lol

Why didn't you ask me earlier. My memory at this point is a little damaged.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Nice Woody! Where did you get that one? lol

Why didn't you ask me earlier. My memory at this point is a little damaged.

[teresaq]

Jesus was never a rebel against God, or His Word.

And the rest of us understand the scriptures according to our various mindsets which have been influenced by a variety of circumstances.

Sometimes by unconverted hearts.

[Overaged]

Sometimes by unconverted hearts.

[olger]

"My son, give Me thine heart."

G

[doug yowell]

[Overaged]

No one has argued Phoebe's importance. That should be self evident from Paul's comments. The nature of her importance is what's being debated.

Her "importance" was no more than any other's in the Church. Certainly it did not include "status."

[doug yowell]

Your questions lead me to believe that you and I have a very different picture of the role of a minister.

That's entirely possible. Paul used the word (in English)rule to describe those who had the oversight of God's flock in Hebrews.This in no way contradicts the way in which rulers should rule or the ruled should respond to the rulers.Our Westernized version of the definition of freedom has been twisted to rebel against any form of authority. Adventism seems to be particularly susceptible to this even though the Bible puts forth Christ as King.We are more prone to view ministry as a job title, one of an administrative nature, telling others what to do and being radified by an official agency of the church.This goes for men.The only thing that WO will do is broaden this ministry to women.NAD is moving forward with ordination before hearing the results of what ordination even means, and this is called the work of the Holy Spirit.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

No one has argued Phoebe's importance. That should be self evident from Paul's comments. The nature of her importance is what's being debated.

Her "importance" was no more than any other's in the Church. Certainly it did not include "status."

That would have been a better way of wording it.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Your questions lead me to believe that you and I have a very different picture of the role of a minister.

That's entirely possible. This in no way contradicts the way in which rulers should rule or the ruled should respond to the rulers.Our Westernized version of the definition of freedom has been twisted to rebel against any form of authority. Adventism seems to be particularly susceptible to this even though the Bible puts forth Christ as King.

And this is the real issue for one who wants the church to "rule" the state, is it not?

Nevermind the teaching of the 1260 years of the church ruling the state? Let's keep trying it til we get it right?

Do you notice that "Christ is king" does not equal to man being able to rule as He ruled, which was no rule. People were free to accept or reject Him. To accept or reject Christianity. He did not start a church to take over the governments of the world.

[Woody]

Thanks teresa - you bring some good information into the discussion.

[Overaged]

That Paul speaks of Phoebe first should be a hint of priority in Paul's mind. That he devotes more words (40 to be exact) in introducing her than he does to any other, including Priscilla and Aquila, should be a significant hint.

"Hints" and supposed corresponding "priorities" are just in the mind of the beholder. It's just not implied or stated explicitly by the text at all.

[CyberGuy]

Jesus was never a rebel against God, or His Word.

G

True but he was a rebel against the establishment and the accepted ways of doing things in his day.

Same for the people who want women to be ordained. No one is against women pastors. They just do not want them ordained. NO where in scripture do we find that women cannot be ordained. So to call that a rebellious stance because of scripture forbids it is really funny. It is rebellious against the bias of the world church who for the most part do not even have women pastors in africa and South America as it is not accepted.

[Woody]

Like has been stated - Africa doesn't want us to interfer with their unbiblical practices - yet they want to impose on us - their unbiblical cultural bias towards women leaders.

[olger]

I am opposed to women pastors and elders, Bruce.

regards,

G

[Woody]

Why is it that from those who have been speaking out in opposition to WO - that not a one has come to the subject with an open mind and desire to learn. I am just curious as to what gives here. It is obvious that good evidence has been presented - yet the closed minded ones are those who say NO evidence has been presented. Have they read the links that Tom provided? Probably not.