How is it done?

[Gerr]

In another thread, Lazarus posted this MLK quote (paraphrasing since I'm too lazy to find the exact quote):

"The black man needs the white man to get rid of his anger, and the white man needs the black man to get rid of his guilt."

How is this done?

[Naomi]

personaly I feel no guilt because I have not done anything to people of color because of their color; I do not appreciate being put into a box and labeled because of my color.

[lazarus]

In another thread, Lazarus posted this MLK quote (paraphrasing since I'm too lazy to find the exact quote):

"The black man needs the white man to get rid of his anger,

"get rid of his fear" is the quote.

Quote:

How is this done?

IMHO, it begins with, dialogue as opposed to discussion, debate.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

In another thread, Lazarus posted this MLK quote (paraphrasing since I'm too lazy to find the exact quote):

"The black man needs the white man to get rid of his anger,

"get rid of his fear" is the quote.

Quote:

How is this done?

IMHO, it begins with, dialogue as opposed to discussion, debate.

I disagree.The black man does not need the white man to get rid of his anger. The black man needs a living experience with Christ in order to get rid of his anger. This was the theme that so many blacks have traditionally hated. Remember Uncle Tom? Anybody ever read the story? Any black in the 60's and 70's who didn't (I'm a little dated on today's generation)have that "edge" was considered a Tom. The impact on the white culture of the time was enormous when they saw a (fictitious)black man act more like Christ than the majority of white men.If the "black" community cannot forgive the "white" race for it's past injustices then both will continue to suffer the consequences.And there is nothing the white skinned person can do about it.Most in the non-black community today have never been a part of the Jim Crow culture of the past. Neither have the younger generation of blacks had to endure those kinds of hostilities. MLK spoke of the importance of the character over the pigment of the skin. When does that concept go into effect? As long as we speak of people in terms of black and white( like President Obama)we continue racism and this thing will never end.I go to a Sabbath School where it is filled with young people from EVERY ethnic background imaginable. There is no racism or talk thereof because everyone sees each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus Christ is the only answer to the question!!

[lazarus]

Your response is the usual response and it doesn't make the situation better. In fact it makes it worse, particular in the church. The issue is not really anger and forgiveness. It's about present injustice. Do you want engage in a dialogue as to why I think that way?

[fccool]

personaly I feel no guilt because I have not done anything to people of color because of their color; I do not appreciate being put into a box and labeled because of my color.

I think the issue of you "not having done anything" is exactly the point.

Take two families, one is rich the other one is poor. I think it's fair to say that if we take all of the exceptional scenarios out of the picture, the likelyhood is that the poor generation will keep on being poor, and the rich generation keep on being rich. The opportunity is not balanced.

Now, take the scenario where initially one group of people got better off at expense of other for several centuries by limiting their collective ability to success. I.E. They could not make a decent wage, they could not vote, they could not even eat the same food, or use the same toilets. They could not get decent education, accumulate generational wealth of their own, and etc.

Collectively then we have an imbalanced societal construct that got its jump-start from one group unjustly exploiting other.

So, when we fast forward to this day and age, it's very easy to say that "I have not done anything". You have not, but if you were the descendant of a slave, then you likewise "have not done anything" to be born into very unbalanced situation, where certain group of people enjoy the collective jump-start that slave labor gave US as a whole, and yet you get to live on the other side of the fence, where you are at disadvantage due to the damaging progressing that such exploitation left.

That's the reason "affirmative action" exists. The whites in America look at it as some sort of "injustice"... it is not. It does not even begin to do any justice. In order to "get" the concept, you have to understand one simple fact:

Slave labor built America and propelled it into rapid economic development, results of which you enjoy today.

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/022009/02282009/448325/index_html?page=1

Your failure to grasp this concept is really failure to understand the historical and sociological implication of one group of people mercilessly exploiting other, and then all of a sudden granting them the same rights and telling them that they now have "the same opportunity" to get out of the hole that was dug for them and by them over two and a half centuries.

While, yes, you can say that there is a black president in the white house, and we have come the long way as a society, but the damage still remains, and it still creates a gap that was left by the exploiting a group of people solely based on the color of their skin. Had they were given a fair start as immigrants in this nation that were paid fair wages, and enjoyed similar freedoms than whites enjoyed since the inception, I highly doubt that we would have the poverty, lack of education, and the concept of "black ghettos" that are very prevalent today.

[Woody]

Quote:

.I go to a Sabbath School where it is filled with young people from EVERY ethnic background imaginable. There is no racism or talk thereof because everyone sees each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus Christ is the only answer to the question!!

Yes. This is right on. We all need Jesus. One of my favorite churches I've attended was the All Nations Church at Berrien Springs MI. It was so cool to see all cultures come together for a common cause - JESUS. HE alone makes the difference. Yes, different cultures CAN get along in HIS name.

And like you say Doug - THEN ... all this talk of racism will end.

[Liz]

Had they were given a fair start as immigrants in this nation that were paid fair wages, and enjoyed similar freedoms than whites enjoyed since the inception, I highly doubt that we would have the poverty, lack of education, and the concept of "black ghettos" that are very prevalent today.

I was with you up until this paragraph. Not all immigrants enjoyed freedoms. My grandfather used to tell stories that when he first came over, there were signs up in the windows that read "Irish need not apply". Not all whites enjoyed the same freedoms either, or as quoted in Animal Farm "some are more equal than others".

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Had they were given a fair start as immigrants in this nation that were paid fair wages, and enjoyed similar freedoms than whites enjoyed since the inception, I highly doubt that we would have the poverty, lack of education, and the concept of "black ghettos" that are very prevalent today.

I was with you up until this paragraph. Not all immigrants enjoyed freedoms. My grandfather used to tell stories that when he first came over, there were signs up in the windows that read "Irish need not apply". Not all whites enjoyed the same freedoms either.

[fccool]

Quote:

Yes. This is right on. We all need Jesus. One of my favorite churches I've attended was the All Nations Church at Berrien Springs MI. It was so cool to see all cultures come together for a common cause - JESUS. HE alone makes the difference. Yes, different cultures CAN get along in HIS name.

And like you say Doug - THEN ... all this talk of racism will end.

"Well all need Jesus" is merely a red herring in this case. It does not reconcile the fact that one group of people lives in aggregate poverty, and the other in aggregate wealth, and thus opportunity.

It does not reconcile the fact that black church segregation, and "black community" was originally formed as a response to the injustice and a way to cope with the lasting effects of both slavery, and then following racism and prejudice.

We can all come to church and sing "How great our God", but that "affinity" at large constitutes only a fraction of people's lives.

If people fall into certain "brackets" of economic opportunity, then they are drive into a certain lifestyle. They live in the areas where they can afford the housing, thus they end up building communities around that lifestyle.

I really don't get how one does not see the oddness of Median White income being almost twice that of media black income in this nation. The question is, what are we going to do about it? Are we going to keep telling people that "all of them need Jesus", and that "I have nothing to do with this problem started by founders of this nation..."? Are we going to keep covering up the problem by providing the minim levels of subsistence via food-stamps? Are we going to go about it by putting uneducated people in a job situation that their education does not train them to handle and then force employers to pay their salaries?

Me thinks there are better ways, but if you think that we are not responsible for this issue as a society, then you merely kidding yourself.

[fccool]

Quote:

I was with you up until this paragraph. Not all immigrants enjoyed freedoms. My grandfather used to tell stories that when he first came over, there were signs up in the windows that read "Irish need not apply". Not all whites enjoyed the same freedoms either.

What you are doing is saying that because there were some whites who were in worse off situation, then it would somehow mean that field was leveled.

I think both of us know it was not true. I'll give you one example as to why it is not. Irish, no matter how terribly they were treated initially, eventually ended up a very powerful faction of immigrants, since they were forming mobs, and trade unions.

Quote:

Because so many Irish-Americans were in the building trades, they quickly took hold of a tool that was still rare back in Ireland — labor unions. The strong Irish sense of community allowed them to quickly grasp the strength of unity and collective bargaining. Irishmen soon led unions for bricklayers, carpenters, and plumbers. Many Irish families are still active leaders in the labor movement.

The mere fact that they could do that without fear of being lynched, should really tell you about the disparity between the black and white rights in that era. If you were Irish, you had hope, that at least your hard work will eventually make the life of the next generation much easier. If you were black, you had no hope. Your next generation will not be able to get education, accumulate wealth or do anything of the sort. Your next generation were like cattle, a personal property that only need to be sustained enough to a lot of free work.

Once again, you don't understand the sociological and historical implication in terms of very recent societal suppression of one group of people.

[Liz]

Whatever dude. Peace.

[fccool]

Whatever ?

Perhaps you can read this, and tell me the same thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_breeding_in_the_United_States

Imagine for a moment, you were forced to have sex with a person you don't know, only for the purpose of your baby to be raised by you and subsequently sold to someone else.

This is merely one example of humiliation these people had to undergo. You really tell me that Irish situation is comparable?

[Liz]

Whatever ?

Perhaps you can read this, and tell me the same thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_breeding_in_the_United_States

Imagine for a moment, you were forced to have sex with a person you don't know, only for the purpose of your baby to be raised by you and subsequently sold to someone else.

This is merely one example of humiliation these people had to undergo. You really tell me that Irish situation is comparable?

No darlin, I'm telling you that some of us are from immigrants that didn't have anything to do with slavery, but you want it be my problem and my guilt simply because I'm white. This is not my guilt trip that you are trying to force me to go on.

As I said before, Peace.

[fccool]

Quote:

No darlin, I'm telling you that some of us are from immigrants that didn't have anything to do with slavery, but you want it be my problem and my guilt simply because I'm white. This is not my guilt trip that you are trying to force me to go on.

It's an argument of "Am I my brother's keeper" type. Let's say you are living in a neighborhood of slave owners. You buy their food, borrow their money, enjoy all of the roads, houses, and products built by slaves... which make them more affordable, and thus it actually benefits you and your well-being. You live in an economy that's sustained solely through slave labor, and gives even poor white people opportunities that slaves could only dream of.

Could you say that in such situation you have nothing to do with slavery? Sure, you don't own slaves, but you might as well have. You don't own them directly, but you certainly own them by proxy, because you are enjoying the product of their labor. So, there's an indirect transfer of wealth (in whatever form) from them to you. Would you feel guilty in such situation?

I hope you see my point, and how it relates to collective idea of equal opportunity in a society.

[Woody]

IF we really want to go back in history -

The blacks sold different tribes to be slaves in America. This in fact saved their lives. For if they were not sold as slaves - they were killed by the dominent tribe and turned into morter for the black tribal heads mansions.

[fccool]

Quote:

IF we really want to go back in history -

The blacks sold different tribes to be slaves in America. This in fact saved their lives. For if they were not sold as slaves - they were killed by the dominent tribe and turned into morter for the black tribal heads mansions.

So, if I buy and use the stolen people who were sold as slaves by their kind, while greatly enriching myself and my subsequent generations at expense of their generations that I breed like cattle... that makes things better how?

[Dottie]

I just finished reading Malinki of Malawi by J. C. Edwards. Much of the slavery in Africa, at least in the part the story was about, was capturing and selling Africans to other Africans, not the the white persons. They could be sold for as little as a piece of cloth. This went on for decades after the War Between the States. It had been going on for decades,(centuries?) before the white slavers showed up on the shores of Africa. I believed the story; was it not true?

It seems to me that the countries that were founded on Christian principles had more civil liberties than countries that knew nothing of Christ. (Wrong again?)

[bonnie]

Whatever ?

Perhaps you can read this, and tell me the same thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_breeding_in_the_United_States

Imagine for a moment, you were forced to have sex with a person you don't know, only for the purpose of your baby to be raised by you and subsequently sold to someone else.

This is merely one example of humiliation these people had to undergo. You really tell me that Irish situation is comparable?

And what would you like any of us to do about this particular

example of humiliation now? You don't know any of that situation personally either.

Nor did the white race invent this type of behavior.They of course committed their own wrongs but so did every race of people on earth.

You are banging on people that had nothing to do with this as a person that never experienced it.Have some discriminated againt you? I am sure they have.Many of us have been discriminated against by black individuals.I would think the mother of the young boy torched by two black youth thinks it is very unfair as well.

The brutality of black on black injustice then and NOW is excused as the fault of the white race How?

Odd how even the so-called Rev Jessie Jackson is relieved to see two white men behind him rather than two black men.

It is the same logic as some American Indians use.Listen to them and you would have to believe that the tribes were walking hand in hand thru the prairie grass before the white settlers came.They stole land that neighboring tribes considered theirs,stealing their horses,capturing their women,treated them as less than animals,stole their children.It only became unforgivable when the white man did same.It was wrong for the white settlers and was wrong for one tribe to brutalize another.

Those that continue to fight the past as an excuse for the present will never progress beyond where they are now.

Regardless of skin color there is little excuse for most to stay in the abject poverty they continually use as an excuse for the current problems.

Education is available,so is the financial means to obtain it.

My sons and millions like them had to work and work at whatever they could find to go to college.No one was willing to pay their way because they were poor,or provide daycare and the many other available services to the poor.But someone has to want it before that does them any good.

The white race is not responsible for the high rate of black on black crime,the extremely high rate of unwed mothers and absent fathers in the black communities. Just as the black race is not responsible for those of the white communities that committ crimes or produce children with as much thought as a stray cat.

As long as you keep looking for someone to pay for the sins of the past you will always be spying racism under every bush.

[Woody]

Quote:

As long as you keep looking for someone to pay for the sins of the past you will always be spying racism under every bush.

Excellent summary Bonnie

[Gerr]

Hey, I think that was insightful.

But now, back to the original question. How can the black man help those white people who carry the guilt of past injustices done by their forebears, and how can white people help the black people rid of their fear/anger?

[fccool]

Quote:

And what would you like any of us to do about this particular example of humiliation now? You don't know any of that situation personally either. Nor did the white race invent this type of behavior.

I don't believe I implicate white race in this case. I'm talking about the overall disparity between American blacks and whites.

Quote:

They of course committed their own wrongs but so did every race of people on earth.

Once again, not talking about the white race and all of the wrongs, but talking about predominantly white (European descent) slave-owners who built up a lot of economy and initial infrastructure of this nation by means of slave labor.

Quote:

You are banging on people that had nothing to do with this as a person that never experienced it.Have some discriminated againt you? I am sure they have.Many of us have been discriminated against by black individuals.I would think the mother of the young boy torched by two black youth thinks it is very unfair as well.

It's very typical of you to provide us with red-herring stories, but you merely are changing the subject here. What you are doing above is showing the individual cases. What I'm talking about is a collective treatment of blacks in this nation for over 200 years.

If you really going to throw some individual cases of discrimination, then you are missing my point entirely.

Quote:

The brutality of black on black injustice then and NOW is excused as the fault of the white race How?

It's not excused as the "fault of white race". Where do you see me saying this?

I'm talking about white colonial America, and it's subsequent generation of whites that suppressed the subsequent generations of blacks all the way up to 50s of the past century.

Quote:

Odd how even the so-called Rev Jessie Jackson is relieved to see two white men behind him rather than two black men.

It is the same logic as some American Indians use.Listen to them and you would have to believe that the tribes were walking hand in hand thru the prairie grass before the white settlers came.

How is it even relevant to the point of one group of people exploiting the other physically, emotionally, spiritually,financially and sexually for over two centuries?

Quote:

They stole land that neighboring tribes considered theirs,stealing their horses,capturing their women,treated them as less than animals,stole their children.It only became unforgivable when the white man did same.It was wrong for the white settlers and was wrong for one tribe to brutalize another.

1) I think you are trying too hard here... to the point me not being sure as to what exactly your point is? Is your point that stealing other people's stuff is ok if they steal from each other? I really don't get your point.

2) Historically, there were nomadic American tribes who were raiders, and there were peaceful who were not. You find this to be the case almost in any continent you go around the primitive world. This is still the case.

Are you justifying the brutality of one group based on the fact that similarly brutal groups pre-existed before?

Quote:

Those that continue to fight the past as an excuse for the present will never progress beyond where they are now.

I really don't think you "get" generational poverty. You have this idea that a person born in America has all of the "tools" they need to make a decent living... this is not true.

A person born into a poverty-stricken home in the ghetto is likely to stay there. There's a good reason why median income of whites are twice as those of blacks, and that reason is sure not what you think it is "they are lazy and making excuses for being so"... the reason is generational poverty that puts one at disadvantage as to receiving decent education, having better family, living in better neighborhoods, having better jobs, and etc.

So, let's not throw this wonderful "American dream idea", because if you are a poor black in America... your chances of living an "American dream" are not very good. In 2010 for every $1 a black person earned, the white earned additional $3. When you factor in the cost of living in America, then it's a difference between barely getting by, and comfortable life with great education for future generation.

Quote:

Regardless of skin color there is little excuse for most to stay in the abject poverty they continually use as an excuse for the current problems. Education is available,so is the financial means to obtain it.

I think you talk of poverty as a choice. That's rather naive. I think if you really think about it, even you will see that it is.

If there was no excuse for object poverty to exist in areas of perpetual poverty, then these people are really lazy. That's the only alternative explanation that one can come up with... and I'm sure you will be the first one to point it out and support it with some great stories from your husband's experience with lazy black people somewhere somehow...

But, if you really think hard, poverty is not merely an issue of lack of education. It's also an issue of lack of opportunity. If you really think that poor blacks and middle-class whites have the same opportunities today, perhaps you need a reality check.

I'm not saying that it's the fault of middle-class whites. I'm likewise not saying that we should just take stuff from them and give to blacks... but we should be socially empathetic to the past, and come up with empathetic solutions, rather than labeling people lazy. I don't believe such to be the case.

Quote:

My sons and millions like them had to work and work at whatever they could find to go to college.No one was willing to pay their way because they were poor,or provide daycare and the many other available services to the poor.But someone has to want it before that does them any good.

That's the problem with people like you, when you make judgements based on your son's hard working experience, and your husband's as hard working Americans. Now, I don't doubt that they did work hard. I respect that... but they had that opportunity to do so, because they were born into your family, and not a family of cyclical and generational poverty that completely lost any sense of hope, and settled with bare survival. I don't have to remind you that Little Rock Nine blacks had to be escorted to national guard to prevent white riots and violence breaking out. It was 1957, mere 55 years ago. That's not even a full generation.

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The white race is not responsible for the high rate of black on black crime,the extremely high rate of unwed mothers and absent fathers in the black communities.

These are both causes and effects of poverty. If you could show that American whites historically have nothingto do with black poverty today, then perhaps you would have a good case. I doubt you can accomplish that.

Quote:

Just as the black race is not responsible for those of the white communities that committ crimes or produce children with as much thought as a stray cat.

Sure, why would they. Their grandparents did not ostracize them and deny them them basic human rights, or even consideration of being human.

Quote:

As long as you keep looking for someone to pay for the sins of the past you will always be spying racism under every bush.

It's not an issue of "paying for the sins of the past". It's really an issue of basic human decency, and human empathy. There's no other way to resolve this, but by realizing that all of us owe a certain degree of recognition and thanks to the slaves that help built this nation that we get to enjoy. They've done so without any hope of compensation... and their subsequent generations were suppressed to poverty through poor education, and forced inequality.

It was merely 50 and some years ago that the National Guard has to prevent riots from happening because 9 students thought that they had the same right to education as any white people in Little Rock. So, looking at things as "those who fight the past" is very dishonest way of painting this issue. These people are still fighting the present effects of the past.

Saying that you should not be involved because you are not directly responsible... does nothing but to show you lack of empathy and understanding IMO.

[doug yowell]

Your response is the usual response

[doug yowell]

Me thinks there are better ways, but if you think that we are not responsible for this issue as a society, then you merely kidding yourself.

Is this your idea of a dialogue or a bully pulpit? Guilty until proven guiltier?

[doug yowell]

There's no other way to resolve this, but by realizing that all of us owe a certain degree of recognition and thanks to the slaves that help built this nation that we get to enjoy.