How is it done?

[bonnie]

I don't believe I implicate white race in this case. I'm talking about the overall disparity between American blacks and whites.[/quoute]

Really,who were you implicating?

Quote:

Once again, not talking about the white race and all of the wrongs, but talking about predominantly white (European descent) slave-owners who built up a lot of economy and initial infrastructure of this nation by means of slave labor.

And what would you like any of us to do about the building of the infrastructure? None of us,including you had a single thing to do with it.

This is the subject.Living in the current tense is what we have.Current behavior.

Quote:

If you really going to throw some individual cases of discrimination, then you are missing my point entirely.

This is hardly a isolated case.You are throwing past behavior at many here as if we can somehow atone for the sins of the past

Quote:

It's not excused as the "fault of white race". Where do you see me saying this?

I'm talking about white colonial America, and it's subsequent generation of whites that suppressed the subsequent generations of blacks all the way up to 50s of the past century.

If it is not the fault of the white race,then whose fault do you believe it is? I know you keep talking about colonial america.What is it you want someone to do about it now or about fifty years ago.Keep apologizing for what someone else did? Not going to do that,it is pointless and completely meaninglesss.

[lazarus]

Quote:

Funny, I've never heard anyone else use it before.

You haven't? It's not so much the wording but the tone and sentiment. It's patronizing. The implication is that all these people who are concerned and upset about racism in America are not yet converted. Many SDA preachers, evangelists, church administrators, elders, church members need to find Jesus?

The usual response it tell black people to get over it.

Interestingly, I don't see American Christians getting over 911 any time soon. I don't hear much talk about forgiveness or dealing with anger towards Muslims. That's odd behavior for Christians.

Quote:

Then why did you post the "fear" quote by MLK that became the theme of this thread?

The fear is promoted by present injustices. These can be perceived or real. The essential fear in the Treyvon case is that another black male is killed and there is no justice. The reason why I posted the Emmett Till video's was to remind folks of the context of black people's fear today. The roots of it are deep. When the response is "get over it" there is a feeling that white folk don't understand and that their situation as regards to justice and equality is tenuous.

It was a struggle and a fight to win freedom. Freedom cannot be retained without a struggle.

Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Martin Luther King.

Netanyahu recently said that Israel cannot leave it security to other nations. He understands that anti-semitism is not as it once was but it is alive and well. The Jews say they will never forget. It's in remembering that there is strength and courage.

[Dr. Shane]

The issue is not really anger and forgiveness. It's about present injustice.

I think forgiveness is what the whole issue is about. The Beatles were right when they sang "All You Need Is Love" back in the '60s.

I grew up as a poor, white boy on food stamps in the poor part of Seattle filled with Vietnamese and Cambodian immigrants. My white skin did not lift me into the middle class. It was my willingness to accept government help so I could go to college and get a degree. Currently I live in a county where white people make up less than 10% of the population. My skin color still doesn't get me anything.

Injustice in the world, not just America, has much more to do with cronyism than racism. A well-connected racial minority will do much better than a poor white kid (like me). But forgiveness is still the answer. For me, a guy with poverty roots, to be resentful or envious of others that are well-connected will not be helpful to me or society. The world isn't fair. It hasn't been fair since Eve ate the forbidden fruit and it never will be fair again until Jesus comes in His glory. So I need to accept that and forgive the injustices in the world around. Really, all we need is love.

[lazarus]

There's no other way to resolve this, but by realizing that all of us owe a certain degree of recognition and thanks to the slaves that help built this nation that we get to enjoy.

Hmmm. Slaves....... Free labor. I'm genuinely surprised that you would ask that question.

Congress took note of their service and sacrifice Wednesday by erecting commemorative plaques inside the Capitol in their honor. Lawmakers said the memorials will ensure that the contributions of slaves in building one of the world's most recognizable buildings will never again be forgotten.

"In remembering the slaves who labored here, we give them in death some measure of the dignity they were so cruelly denied in life," Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell said at the plaques' unveiling.

Besides working on the building, slaves worked in quarries extracting the stone for the Capitol. Other slaves provided carpentry skills, and still others worked at sawing stone and timber.

Slave women and children were used to mold clay in kilns.

Lawmakers recounted for the standing-room only crowd the story of Philip Reid, perhaps the most famous of the slaves who worked on the construction of the Capitol. Reid was owned by a Maryland sculptor and ironworker who had been contracted to bronze a plaster copy of the Statue of Freedom, the statue that sits today on top of the Capitol Dome.

http://www.thegrio.com/politics/slaves-who-built-national-capitol-building-honored.php

[Dr. Shane]

The essential fear in the Treyvon case is that another black male is killed and there is no justice.

The fear in the present case is the result of media hype. It is about driving up ratings and selling advertising. Black people are being targeted and exploited by the media in this case. Hispanics kill Blacks and Blacks kill Hispanics and justice is often not accomplished. It happens all the time. In this case, a Hispanic man had a white person's last name so the media saw the opportunity to get some ratings. Far more blacks die from black on black crime and many times the police don't even look for the killers.

[lazarus]

Shane,

The loving thing to do is to call out injustice when you see it. That's what Martin Luther King did. No resentment or envy here. Remember MLK was criticized by white Christians on the same issues. Read the letter from the Birmingham jail.

[lazarus]

The fear in the present case is the result of media hype.

That's a simplistic view in my opinion. Black people killed black people in the 1950's too but the death of a child at the hands of a white assailant who goes free raises particular emotions.

[lazarus]

So how does empathy and understanding cure the problem?And, since you've said that the thread title is not the problem,what sort of involvement can change the problem and what exactly do you see as the problem?

Liz started a thread in the political forum. It is called race, agendas and fairness. Her approach was to ask questions and seek to understand. She may hold similar views to others who post here but I think she takes the time to hear. Datente is French for relaxation. There has been some of that in that thread. I think that is due to Liz's approach.

[bonnie]

How is it even relevant to the point of one group of people exploiting the other physically, emotionally, spiritually,financially and sexually for over two centuries?

[bonnie]

Hmmm. Slaves....... Free labor. I'm genuinely surprised that you would ask that question.

Congress took note of their service and sacrifice Wednesday by erecting commemorative plaques inside the Capitol in their honor. Lawmakers said the memorials will ensure that the contributions of slaves in building one of the world's most recognizable buildings will never again be forgotten.

"In remembering the slaves who labored here, we give them in death some measure of the dignity they were so cruelly denied in life," Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell said at the plaques' unveiling.

Besides working on the building, slaves worked in quarries extracting the stone for the Capitol. Other slaves provided carpentry skills, and still others worked at sawing stone and timber.

Slave women and children were used to mold clay in kilns.

Lawmakers recounted for the standing-room only crowd the story of Philip Reid, perhaps the most famous of the slaves who worked on the construction of the Capitol. Reid was owned by a Maryland sculptor and ironworker who had been contracted to bronze a plaster copy of the Statue of Freedom, the statue that sits today on top of the Capitol Dome.

http://www.thegrio.com/politics/slaves-who-built-national-capitol-building-honored.php

Maybe I have missed it but has anyone denied the contributions,forced or otherwise by those brought here as slaves or the black race in general?

I think the memorials are a great thing to do. Just as we should be reminded of all that sacrificed.

In doing genealogy I discovered some of my mother's ancestors had been very instrumental in building the Santa Fe railroad.Along with that the tremendous note of appreciation that belongs to the Chinese.While I think in time it would have been built without them,there is no denying their contribution.The treatment of the Chinese was horrendous.It would be nice to see a memorial to them as well.

Yet you do not read or see of the Chinese staying in that same mindset of decades ago.

[Woody]

Shane,

The loving thing to do is to call out injustice when you see it. That's what Martin Luther King did. No resentment or envy here. Remember MLK was criticized by white Christians on the same issues. Read the letter from the Birmingham jail.

Finally something that we all can agree upon. I venture to say that each person here can go along with this.

The key words are "when you see it" - NOT when you imaginate it. ANd right now what I see from most blacks on this topic - is to throw out the race card before there is any evidence of it.

If George is a racist - I want to call it out and stamp it out and see that he pays for it.

But the blacks that I see on this topic - are going along with the media hype.

IF ever there was a possibility of a racist bone in my body - what I witness from the blacks would cause it. Their behavior is causing division where there need not be. All because of hype. Apply your anger where it is deserved and WHEN it is deserved.

[bonnie]

That's a simplistic view in my opinion. Black people killed black people in the 1950's too but the death of a child at the hands of a white assailant who goes free raises particular emotions.

I would think the death of any child is cause for particular concern. Dead means dead.

This never would have escalated to the division and hatred it has if Jessie Jackson,politicians and the media had issued the same type of statement Martins mother did.

She has had a lot to deal with in losing her son,regardless of how it happened.

It is to bad her attitude or a wait and see without editing tapes and the inexcusable actions of politicians on the floor of congress was not used by those laughingly called leaders.

That doesn't get nearly the press/ratings.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

That's a simplistic view in my opinion. Black people killed black people in the 1950's too but the death of a child at the hands of a white assailant who goes free raises particular emotions.

I would think the death of any child is cause for particular concern. Dead means dead.

This never would have escalated to the division and hatred it has if Jessie Jackson,politicians and the media had issued the same type of statement Martins mother did.

She has had a lot to deal with in losing her son,regardless of how it happened.

It is to bad her attitude or a wait and see without editing tapes and the inexcusable actions of politicians on the floor of congress was not used by those laughingly called leaders.

That doesn't get nearly the press/ratings.

Excellent comment Bonnie. I give a LOT of credit to Martin's mom. Despite her grief - she is perhaps the only level headed one on this topic. She recognizes that it was an 'accident' and has compassion for the situation. IF only the rest would follow her example.

[OzarkWoman]

Finally something that we all can agree upon. I venture to say that each person here can go along with this.

The key words are "when you see it" - NOT when you imaginate it. ANd right now what I see from most blacks on this topic - is to throw out the race card before there is any evidence of it.

If George is a racist - I want to call it out and stamp it out and see that he pays for it.

But the blacks that I see on this topic - are going along with the media hype.

IF ever there was a possibility of a racist bone in my body - what I witness from the blacks would cause it. Their behavior is causing division where there need not be. All because of hype. Apply your anger where it is deserved and WHEN it is deserved.

What is it about racists like me that helped with the voting problems of the 1960s? I think it was absolutely terrible that we took buses down to to the deep south and fought right alongside any black who was discriminated. After reading all of these threads about Zimmerman made me realize how racist I truly am. I should never have helped or protested or fought for any person of color because apparently it was very racist of me to do so.

[bonnie]

What is it about racists like me that helped with the voting problems of the 1960s? I think it was absolutely terrible that we took buses down to to the deep south and fought right alongside any black who was discriminated. After reading all of these threads about Zimmerman made me realize how racist I truly am. I should never have helped or protested or fought for any person of color because apparently it was very racist of me to do so.

You are racist if you believe that there was/is a rush to judgment by those that know absolutely nothing of what happened as fact. If you don't automatically assume this happened as a result of racial hatred you are racist.

If you do not look at this incident thru the prism of 50 years ago or colonial America you are racist.

If you precede every statement with an apology for past sins there is no doubt,you are racist.

Must have been white guilt that led you to the above actions.

[fccool]

Quote:

Can you be a little more precise about which aspect of this nation they helped build?

Slavery was the "oil" of inception of US economy, only it was much much cheaper. If you get rid of the oil for a day in our economy, you will probably understand comparatively how it would affect inception of US economy if it would progress without slave labor.

The US would not dominate the world as the lead cotton exporter. Much of the infrastructure would not be built due to lack of the capital to do such undertaking. The capital would not concentrate in US (both South and North) to spearhead the industrial revolution, and etc...

There are books written on that, so a couple of paragraphs really will not do this fair justice.

Quote:

This aspect is a well recognized blotch on our great country's history. It remains a perpetual shame whose consequences continue to haunt us in our attempts to continue to create a society that is what our founders originally had in mind.the African slave suffered horribly and it took 600,000 mostly white American lives to end the practice, and another 100 years to figure out that the task was not yet complete. All American society recognizes this, even those whose families were never a part of the historical problem. How many more centuries must we be asked to carry the guilty feelings of our long dead citizenry?

I think it's very simplistic understanding of history to say that American Civil War was about slavery. Far from it. Yes, slavery was a byproduct, but any diligent student of history will tell you that it was really over consequent political structure of the US. This outlook of war really put the North in a terrible and power-hungry light, so the slavery became the scape-goat myth that after a century of regurgitating becomes the prime cause of why "moral north" fought the "immoral south" to free the slaves.

Lincoln was largely racist, but not very much different from the majority of the people in the US...

“I will say then that I am not, nor have ever been in favor of bring­ing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … there is a physical dif­ference between the white and black races which I believe will forever for­bid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other men am in favor of having the supe­rior position assigned to the white race.”

(in a debate with Stephen Douglas, Septem­ber 18, 1858)

There are plenty of myth's revolving about civil war, but you have to remember that the winners write the history. Yet, there's just too much history to ignore, and if you take away the race issue, then another one would be found as to why there should be a unified as one great nation with central power in Washington dictating the bidding of the states. That's what it was all about. It's obvious to any honest historian.

As far as "guilty feelings", no one is asking you to "feel guilty". I think empathy would go much much further than guilt, and I'll explain it in terms of your last question.

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Yes,50 years ago when most of this generation was revolting against such behavior.

This is actually not quite true. Perhaps most of that generation in the most progressive parts of the country, but the most progressive parts of the country did not constitute "most of America". It would take the older generation to die off, and further development of state-sponsored education, development of mass communications mediums, and many black activists and cultural icons to get the issue to national points of majority acceptance by 90s.

Quote:

Yet you blame the past for the present and demand that those not responsible for the past are somehow now responsible for the present. For the present what? What you have been describing is not an ongoing inequity in opportunity but an inequity in perception.

I don't "blame" past for the present. Past and present have a direct cause-effect relationship. Past is responsible for present. That's how we are where we are.

I certain don't say that whites of today are "responsible" for slavery. What I'm saying is that whites today disproportionately enjoy the perpetuated position of wealth and power that slavery set up. While we progressed quite a bit from 50s, we still have quite a bit to go.

Quote:

So how does empathy and understanding cure the problem? And, since you've said that the thread title is not the problem,what sort of involvement can change the problem and what exactly do you see as the problem?

The problem IS the lack of empathy and understanding for the struggle of impoverished black people. The conditions and ghettos that exist today are remnants of the segregation era that many, if not the most, were not able to overcome.

Poverty has cumulative generational effects, and if you have a sociological situation when one race has been suppressed by another into poverty for extended period of time, I think it's fair to say that as a society we have to do something to alleviate the effects of such injustice, especially if the effects are not natural (people are being lazy), but rather artificial.

There are numerous things that can be and is already done, but the idea that you have nothing to do with this problem at all as an American is in fact showing complete lack of understanding and empathy.

So, you see quite a bit of attention being focused on violence, lack of education, crime and etc... and not enough understanding of direct causal relationship of these as a result of slavery and consequent discrimination, which artificially educed poverty, and below-poverty conditions for centuries.

[Woody]

Quote:

You are racist if you believe that there was/is a rush to judgment by those that know absolutely nothing of what happened as fact. If you don't automatically assume this happened as a result of racial hatred you are racist.

If you do not look at this incident thru the prism of 50 years ago or colonial America you are racist.

If you precede every statement with an apology for past sins there is no doubt,you are racist.

Must have been white guilt that led you to the above actions.

Excellent Summary Bonnie

[olger]

The whole black racial thing is based on a violation of Psalms 34, and Hebrews 12:15. It is generational bitterness getting worse with each generation.

People think that programs like affirmative action can fix it, but they fail utterly because they do not resolve the core issue from the heart - bitterness. Resolve that and the racial evil-for-evil melts away.

Bitterness destroys the vessel that contains it.

[OzarkWoman]

The whole black racial thing is based on a violation of Psalms 34, and Hebrews 12:15. It is generational bitterness getting worse with each generation.

People think that programs like affirmative action can fix it, but they fail utterly because they do not resolve the core issue from the heart - bitterness. Resolve that and the racial evil-for-evil melts away.

Bitterness destroys the vessel that contains it.

Not to mention the fact that affirmative action is just another racial divider and gives something because of color or ethnicity and not because of what one has earned.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: olger

The whole black racial thing is based on a violation of Psalms 34, and Hebrews 12:15. It is generational bitterness getting worse with each generation.

People think that programs like affirmative action can fix it, but they fail utterly because they do not resolve the core issue from the heart - bitterness. Resolve that and the racial evil-for-evil melts away.

Bitterness destroys the vessel that contains it.

Not to mention the fact that affirmative action is just another racial divider and gives something because of color or ethnicity and not because of what one has earned.

to both of ye

[fccool]

Quote:

You are racist if you believe that there was/is a rush to judgment by those that know absolutely nothing of what happened as fact. If you don't automatically assume this happened as a result of racial hatred you are racist. If you do not look at this incident thru the prism of 50 years ago or colonial America you are racist. If you precede every statement with an apology for past sins there is no doubt,you are racist. Must have been white guilt that led you to the above actions

No, you are a racist if you think that black people at large are lazy, violent, sexually promiscuous, and whatever you'd like to add to that.

So, following the above, when a neighborhood watch volunteer looks at a guy in his neighborhood that "looks black", and assumes that he is wondering around because he is "on drugs or something"... and then makes statements like "bastards always get away" or "f-ing punks". I think it's fair to say that racial prejudice does play into such situation, especially if the "profiled" person ends up being dead and it turns out to be innocent of the suspicious behavior.

If you really think that this would have happen to preppy dressed white teen walking home, while looking at the houses... you have a good case then. Better case than that of Florida prosecutor.

[Woody]

Profiling is necessary. We all do it most days.

And in this case - the profilee was indeed a drug user and abuser. So the assessment was correct.

OR - can you see the following:

Oh this appears to be a black person. I'm sure a black person would be innocent and certainly is going about an appropriate business here in our gated community. NO need for the neighborhood 'watch' to 'watch' HIM. Even though I've never seen this dude in this locked community before - since he is black - I'll just ignore him.

I fear the above is the profiling that some would have the Neighborhood 'Watch' to do.

[bonnie]

No, you are a racist if you think that black people at large are lazy, violent, sexually promiscuous, and whatever you'd like to add to that.

[fccool]

Quote:

Why did Martin jump him? I believe Zimmerman was back by his car when that occurred. I don't care what color you are,start banging my head into the sidewalk and I have an opportunity you would not like the results.

How do you know that Martin jumped him, and it's not Zimmerman who was trying to detain him without probable cause, for which Martin was trying to defend himself.

I realize that Martin is far from saint, judging by his twitter posts alone, but I don't believe that he deserved to die in this situation. No one would have to die if Zimmerman did not have a gun.

[bonnie]

How do you know that Martin jumped him, and it's not Zimmerman who was trying to detain him without probable cause, for which Martin was trying to defend himself.

I realize that Martin is far from saint, judging by his twitter posts alone, but I don't believe that he deserved to die in this situation. No one would have to die if Zimmerman did not have a gun.

I don't.I am going by what has been said after Jackson got thru inciting people.

You don't know either but yet you seem to know this was racial deliberate murder.

If I remember right and Zimmerman had returned to the location of his car what was Martin doing there if he wanted to get away from Zimmerman? If I am afraid of someone and wanting to get away the last place I am going to is somewhere the other party is sure to go.

Martin sounds like a young man headed for big trouble. That is not why he was shot. Zimmerman didn't have any knowledge as far as I know of Martins previous behavior.What we have is very sketchy information on Martin's behavior that night.For you,he was black and that is all that counts. I hope for the sake of everyone involved that Zimmerman's fate is not determined by that type of mindset.It has been enough in the media

Sometimes getting your head banged into concrete is sufficient and a gun is not needed.

Sounds like Zimmerman should now be tried because he had a gun.