A Must For Every Christian

[Gerr]

So, have you achieve this level of perfection that merits heaven yet? If not now, when?

[skyblue888]

It is written that "In Christ was found the perfect ideal. To reveal this ideal as the only true standard for attainment; to show what every human being might become; what, through the indwelling of humanity by divinity, all who received Him would become--for this, Christ came to the world." Education,73-4.

Thus we read:

"The law of human and the divine action makes the receiver a laborer together with God. It brings man where he can , united with divinity, work the works of God. Humanity and divinity combined will be a complete success for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." Faith & Works,27.

The above statements should help us better appreciate the following one:

"The parable of the wedding garment opens before us a lesson of the highest consequence. By the marriage is represented the union of humanity with divinity; the wedding garment represents the character which all must possess who shall be accounted fit guests for the wedding." C.O.L.307.

"When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." C.O.L.69.

These statements speak for themselves. They are mere paraphrased of Holy Writ.

sky

[Woody]

Avoidance

[cricket]

He gives you the power to do what He expects, take it and do it, it is our calling.

These are, perhaps, the most helpful words I've read this year. Thank you, Gibs.

[cheddar]

Woody, the reason it's hard for me to let this go is because I believed that I could achieve perfection 30 years ago. It didn't take me long to realize it is one of the most hopeless teachings I have ever encountered. Gibs doesn't see it, but it's back to MY works all over again although he claims it's Christ working in me.

This is a very true statement and I think many Christians have experienced this.

Perfectionism and performance are cheap imitations of righteousness and can never take away the guilt and condemnation that we all wrestle with. Paul says that there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. So I think the amount of guilt that we have is a good indication of where we are in our walk with Christ.

This is very basic but we as Christians need to know that we have been saved by Jesus Christ. I think on a sub-conscience level many Christians still doubt as to whether they are truly saved or not. They think that their salvation depends on them and that’s why they are so obsessed with doing everything right and being perfect. They see faith as something small and unimportant.

[Overaged]

Over, the issue is not about anything except what the Word of God teaches, whether we believe the Word or not. sky

But all you are doing here is quoting Ellen White.

[Overaged]

Surely if this kind of a belief system was true - we would see the fruits of it. But I dare to say - every human being I've seen in my lifetime has not lived up to their standard of righteousness.

I'll have you know Woody, that when I make a mistake; IT'S PERFECT.

[Overaged]

May be the following will help:

"A healthy man, who is able to attend to the vocations of life and who goes forth day after day to his labor with buoyant spirits and with a healthy current of blood flowing through his veins, does not call attention of every one he meets to his soundness of body. Health and vigor are the natural conditions of his life, and therefore he is SCARCELY CONSCIOUS that he is in the enjoyment of such a boon.

THUS IT IS WITH THE RIGHTEOUS MAN. He is UNCONSCIOUS of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses... His life is hid with Christ in God; YET HE DOES NOT BOAST OF THIS, NOR SEEMS CONSCIOUS OF IT." E.G. White, The Sanctified Life, 12,13.

The apostle Paul was such a man. Though he would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit one wrong act, (C.O.L.161) at the end of his life he confessed himself to be the chief of sinners. 1 Timothy 1:15.

He was imbued with the Spirit of the Gospel, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of meekness.

sky

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

He gives you the power to do what He expects, take it and do it, it is our calling.

These are, perhaps, the most helpful words I've read this year. Thank you, Gibs.

And what does God expect of us? Perfect performance? In a broken down body that was conceived and nurtured in sin? How are we accepted by God? Is it by perfect performance?

Read Hebrews 11 or the entire Bible and find just 1 person who ever gained acceptance by perfect performance!

The Bible explicitly states that the saints of old received approval because they trusted God, Heb 11:2. Abraham was accounted righteous, not because he perfectly obeyed, but because he trusted God, Gen 15:6.

[skyblue888]

In other words, "All His biddings are enablings." C.O.L.333.

[skyblue888]

The Bible explicitly states that the saints of old received approval because they trusted God, Heb 11:2. Abraham was accounted righteous, not because he perfectly obeyed, but because he trusted God, Gen 15:6.

So Gerry, you are admitting here that Abraham perfectly obeyed because He trusted God.

But he will not be saved in the kingdom because he perfectly obeyed but because He trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come. Because he trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come he was made righteous, obedient.

Not one of us will make it to Heaven because of good works even the works which the grace of God will have enabled us to do.

Only the merits of Christ will avail with God. But God will reward the good works which He Himself will have enabled us to do.

Anyone who maintains that good works play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit will be accused of treason at the bar of God's tribunal.

sky

[skyblue888]

It is not our performance that the law demands but Christ's. It is not our obedience that the law demands but Christ's. It is not our faith that God wants but Christ's. Our faith is unbelief but the faith of Christ works the works of God by love, by the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Rom.5:5; Gal.5:6; John 1:7; Rev.14:12.

It is Christ working in and through us both to will and to do God's good pleasure that the law demands. Unless it sees this in us it condemns us.

sky

[Gerr]

The Bible explicitly states that the saints of old received approval because they trusted God, Heb 11:2. Abraham was accounted righteous, not because he perfectly obeyed, but because he trusted God, Gen 15:6.

So Gerry, you are admitting here that Abraham perfectly obeyed because He trusted God.

Abraham perfectly obeyed God? Where did I or the Bible say that? The Bible records his imperfect life!!! What he did was develop perfect trust, even to the point of sacrificing his one and only promised son when asked to do so.

Quote:

But he will not be saved in the kingdom because he perfectly obeyed but because He trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come. Because he trusted in the merits of a Saviour to come he was made righteous, obedient.

Not one of us will make it to Heaven because of good works even the works which the grace of God will have enabled us to do.

Only the merits of Christ will avail with God. But God will reward the good works which He Himself will have enabled us to do.

Anyone who maintains that good works play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit will be accused of treason at the bar of God's tribunal.

sky

How can you say all that and then demand that we MUST perfectly obey or be toast as opposed to PERFECTLY TRUST God?

[Gerr]

In other words, "All His biddings are enablings." C.O.L.333.

And what is He bidding us to do?

[Gibs]

Gerry,

Then should we not sing "Trust and Obey".

Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Jer 3:23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.

Jer 3:24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.

Jer 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Jer 42:21 And now I have this day declared it to you; but ye have not obeyed the voice of the LORD your God, nor any thing for the which he hath sent me unto you.

Jer 42:22 Now therefore know certainly that ye shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, in the place whither ye desire to go and to sojourn.

Here's a promise for obedience,

Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Then I run into a few more,

Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Ac 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Want the Holy Spirit? Then obey Him.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

This is a truly amazing thread. The funny thing is, I think everyone posting is right! In His respect for your free will, the Father will let you choose your path to salvation. If you choose to be judged on your perfect obedience to the Law, the Father will judge you thusly. How do you know if you're ever good enough? I agree with several others in this discussion that I have never met anyone who has met that standard - myself most of all. If I must rely on my perfect obedience to the law, I am the toast several have alluded to. There are scriptures where God seems to hold out perfection as a standard; but how do we get around:

"9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom. 3:9-11)

"23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)

"10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:10)

On the other hand, scripture holds out several individuals as examples of those whose faith was accredited to them as righteousness. Read Hebrews 11 (quoting it here makes this post too long).

In the OT sacrificial system, when an individual brought a sin offering to the sanctuary, what was inspected to be without blemish - the sinner or the sacrifice? The sacrifice! Throughout the Book of Hebrews, Christ is held up as the perfect sacrifice who was offered once and for all as a sacrifice for sin. Is not He, as the Lamb of God, held up as the perfect sacrifice without blemish? How many places in the NT does it state that he who believes is saved?

For me, faith in Jesus as the perfect sacrifice and covering my sin is the only way I can be assured of salvation. If I think my performance can save me, I deny that Christ's sacrifice on my behalf is "enough"; and that His grace is "enough".

You all can choose whatever standard you want to achieve eternal life. Only the sacrifice and grace of Jesus works for me; or I am "toast". If my perfect performance and sin management is required for salvation, I might as well give up my faith and sprint to hell; partying with the sinners all the way. I tried "perfect obedience" for 30 years; and it didn't work. I'd rather work on my sin problem together with Jesus; and rely on His sacrifice to cover what I cannot realistically accomplish.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Then should we not sing "Trust and Obey".

Of course!!! Trust & obey! But perfect, flawless, obedience with a "body of sin" that is indwelt by the very principle of sin? Why don't you show ONE person who ever met the standard you are holding out? If you can't bear witness that you are now in perfect obedience, how can you expect anyone to follow?

AGAIN, when is a believing sinner saved?

[Gibs]

Gerry none can ever say they are perfect even if they were, we can not be the judge of that.

"My son, do not become discouraged. Look to Jesus, and trust in Him. Keep the eye single to the glory of God. Hide self in God. Do not, I beseech of you, participate in this mania for illustrations. If you will depend upon God and walk humbly before Him, He will be your helper and your God. The Holy Spirit is freely bestowed upon every soul who will exercise faith in God. Edson and Emma, you are very precious to me, but you are even more precious to the One who gave His life for you. "Walk before God, and be ye perfect" [see Genesis 17:1]. {17MR 129.2}

Ge 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

"AGAIN, when is a believing sinner saved?" You ask,

At full repentance and surrender of the will, our all to Him. It is a full resolve to make a complete change and be a new creature in and by Him. The salvation has always been there but is not the sinners until repentance. Repent and confess and He is true and faithful and forgives for all past sin you have confessed. Any that are not confessed He brings them to your remembrace and then it must be confessed.

It don't matter that we dwell in a body and have committed sin in the past, we are now empowered to put it away, you me or any can do it, we are given the advantage to get it accomplished. We must not be in denial of that fact. That would be saying Christ in you is not able to keep you from falling.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

You all can choose whatever standard you want to achieve eternal life. Only the sacrifice and grace of Jesus works for me

Wow. How true. You know - if one doesn't choose His Robe of Righteousness then he will be judged by perfect obedience to the Law no matter how he might wish to obtain it. Some here think that they can get all that power from God and use it to perfection. Good Luck pal is what I say.

It is my choice to accept the Grace of God and His Righteous Robe to cover me and my wretched life here on this earth.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In other words, "All His biddings are enablings." C.O.L.333.

And what is He bidding us to do?

As if you didn't know!

He bids us be holy. 1 Peter 1:16.

He bids us be perfect as He is.

I don't have to tell anyone that it is not in our power to make ourselves holy or perfect. The power to accomplish this is in His word. That power is Christ. He dwells in His word.

"His power, His very life, dwells in His word. As you receive the word in faith, it will give you power to obey." M.B.150.

"The words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are Life." John 6:63.

The whole law of ten commandments is fulfilled in one word from the mouth of God: "Be holy."

And the faith of Christ responds: "Lord, Be it done unto me as you have spoken." And the Lord says, "Be it done unto you according to your faith."

sky

[Gibs]

We Woody who see we must be overcomers we too by necessity come to repentance and full surrender confessing our sins and He forgives and places on us His Righteous Robe.

There comes a time though that we must not sin for a short time, EGW makes it clear and one needs to get the formula now before it is too late. Sure He forgives each time we go and confess and resolve to put it away, but don't you think He will see if you don't intend to do that at all. There must be real sorrow in the heart for any sin we have committed.

If His Spirit still dwells in us He sure will bring any unconfessed and unforgiven ones to your memory and you do not have peace until forgiven with true resolve.

To be a candidate for His Kingdom sin must be gotten out of the heart and soul, spirit. Our body is just a dwelling place for the real you and me, our spirit, soul and what we have set in our hearts will come up in one or the other resurrection as when we died of this body.

We must clear our soul of sin now in this probationary time. EGW, now,

"Children and youth should train their minds to dwell upon heavenly things. They should educate the tongue to speak of those things which are pure and lovely, and discipline the soul to anticipate the precious things of heaven. The less cheap conversation we indulge in, the better. Let your words be pure and sincere; educate the thoughts to dwell upon heavenly themes; educate the tongue to avoid vain trifling, jesting, and joking; and seek to be clean and holy in all manner of conversation, realizing that you are fitting up for the future, immortal life. You have a soul to save or to lose, and it is your privilege and duty to conduct your lives in this probationary time in such a way that you will have a right to the immortal inheritance." {YI, August 3, 1893 par. 1}

"You will find men who talk of a second probation, comforting themselves with the thought that if they are not overcomers in this probationary time, they will in a future probation secure a preparation for heaven. But the Lord has no future probation for any soul that lives. Those who do not appreciate this present probation will have no second trial. Those who in this life pursue a course which will close against them the gates of the city of God, need not flatter themselves that the Lord will give them another opportunity to prepare to meet Him. No, no, no!" {21MR 398.2}

We will take with us to one resurrection or the other of whether sin has been overcome. Even in the first resurrection the character is not changed, it is as when we leave this world. EGW, now,

"I will never advocate the popular theory that it does not matter what doctrine men espouse, if they only have faith. "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Genuine faith will be expressed by good works. We are looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. We may not be living when Christ shall come in power and great glory, for all are subject to death at any time, but if we are righteous, in harmony with the law of God, we shall respond to the voice that will call the people of God from their graves, and shall come forth to receive immortality. It is only the blessed and holy who will be ready for the first resurrection; for when Christ comes, he will not change the character. The change that will take place will be that change spoken of by Paul when he says: "We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." The word of God declares that we must be found blameless, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Now we are to learn obedience, submission to the divine will, that God may work in us to will and to do of his good-pleasure, and that we may work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But our own efforts are of no avail to atone for sin or to renew the heart. Only the blood of Christ can atone for us; his grace alone can create in us a clean heart, and enable us to obey God's law. In him is our only hope." {ST, February 9, 1891 par. 1}

He is our strength, stay and power to be what He wants and needs us to be to be with Him in His Kingdom.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Well good luck you two trying to be perfect. It's a dead end street. The way of destruction. You are headed towards nothing but misery and death. God wants us to accept His sacrifice on our behalf. And now you guys think you can present something worthy of salvation when ONLY JESUS is worthy.

Well - you are making your choice.

[Gibs]

Woody,

His way is the only way, He made it that we too can be overcomers.. That is a blessed and wonderful advantage we must take hold of. Please look into it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

No thanks Gibs. That is your choice - not mine.

[Samie]

Brother, I highlighted in blue below a distortion of the gospel. I know, it is unintentional on your part.

We Woody who see we must be overcomers we too by necessity come to repentance and full surrender confessing our sins and He forgives and places on us His Righteous Robe.

There comes a time though that we must not sin for a short time, EGW makes it clear and one needs to get the formula now before it is too late. Sure He forgives each time we go and confess and resolve to put it away, but don't you think He will see if you don't intend to do that at all. There must be real sorrow in the heart for any sin we have committed.