Atonement - when?

[Samie]

Without Christ we can do nothing, not even

believe. True, but "Christ

has dealt to every man the measure of

faith." Rom.12:3.

Therefore, "Faith is the

gift of God but the power to exercise it

is ours. Faith is the hand by which the

soul takes hold upon the divine offers

of grace and mercy." P.P.431.

"By faith take hold upon

the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing

blood will be applied." F.W.96.

It is true that "In Christ

we live and move and have our being"

(Acts 17:28) and that there is nothing we

can do to change that but spiritually not

all are connected with Christ. In order to

have a living connection with Him we must

exercise faith. We have just read that

Christ has dealt to every man the measure

of faith.

"Faith is the gift of God."

Eph.2:9.

And, when exercised, it "grows exceedingly." 2 Thess.1:3.

sky

[skyblue888]

Samie, you just wrote:

"Faith, both a gift and

a fruit, results in being attached to

Christ, not to be attached to Him."

True, faith is a gift but it will not

produce any fruit unless it is exercised.

Only as it is exercised can Christ become

unto us righteousness and wisdom and

sanctification and redemption.

(1 Cor.1:30)

This faith is already there for the

exercising, as it is written

"God has dealt to EVERY

MAN the gift of faith." Rom.12:3.

It must be awakened by the Holy Spirit

but the Holy Spirit will not force anyone

to exercise it. The Holy Spirit makes

impression upon the mind and upon the

heart. It is left to man to exercise

the faith which the Holy Spirit inspires.

God is no respecter of persons.

When we are born into this world we are

born with the gift of faith, with a

measure of the Spirit from whom faith

proceeds. It may take time before we

exercise it but it is there nonetheless.

The more it is exercised the more it

grows and the more of the Spirit we have

and the more of the Spirit we have the

more faith we have.

If we are to follow your reasoning to its

logical conclusion man would have no

freedom to believe or not to believe.

Though the measure of faith has been dealt

to every man, not every man chooses to

exercise the free gift. Some may exercise

it for a time and then make

"shipwreck of faith."

1 Tim.1:19.

"And you, that were once

alianated and enemies in your mind by

wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled

in the body of His death, to present you

holy and unblamable and unreprovable in

His sight, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH,

grounded and settled, and be not moved

away from the hope of the Gospel, which

ye heard." Colossians 1:22-23.

So there is the condition, that we continue

in the faith, continue to trust wholly in

the merits of His shed blood. Then His

commandments become promises to us,

promises of their own fulfilment by

the Holy Spirit who is the power of

His word. (John 6:63)

sky

[skyblue888]

Besides,

"These things saith He that

is holy, He that is true, He that hath the

key of David, He that openeth, and no man

shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

I know thy works: behold, I have set before

thee an open door, and no man can shut it."

Revelation 3:7, 8.

"It is those who by faith follow

Jesus in the great work of the atonement who

receive the benefits of His mediation in their

behalf, while those who reject the light which

brings to view this work of ministration are

not benefited thereby.

The Jews who rejected the light given at

Christ's first advent, and refused to

believe on Him as the Saviour of the world,

could not receive pardon through Him. When

Jesus at His ascension entered by His own blood

into the heavenly sanctuary to shed upon His

disciples the blessings of His mediation,

the Jews were left in total darkness to continue

their useless sacrifices and offerings.

The ministration of types and shadows had ceased.

That door by which men had formerly found access

to God was no longer open. The Jews had refused

to seek Him in the only way whereby He could then

be found, through the ministration in the

sanctuary in heaven. Therefore they found no

communion with God. To them the door was shut.

They had no knowledge of Christ as the true

sacrifice and the only mediator before God;

hence they could not receive the benefits of

His mediation.

The condition of the unbelieving Jews

illustrates the condition of the careless

and unbelieving among professed Christians,

who are willingly ignorant of the work of

our merciful High Priest.

In the typical service, when the high priest

entered the most holy place, all Israel

were required to gather about the sanctuary

and in the most solemn manner humble their

souls before God, that they might receive

the pardon of their sins and not be cut off

from the congregation.

How much more essential in this antitypical

Day of Atonement that we understand the

work of our High Priest and know what duties

are required of us." The Great

Controversy, 430.

So the above clearly states that unless we are

following Jesus into the Most Holy Place and

understand His work there, we cannot exercise

the faith that is required of us today and to

us the door is shut just as the door of mercy

was shut to the Jews who failed to follow

Jesus into the Holy Place after His ascension

in order to benefit from His mediation.

sky

[Samie]

Samie, you just wrote:

"Faith, both a gift and

a fruit, results in being attached to

Christ, not to be attached to Him."

...

When we are born into this world we are

born with the gift of faith, with a

measure of the Spirit from whom faith

proceeds. It may take time before we

exercise it but it is there nonetheless.

The more it is exercised the more it

grows and the more of the Spirit we have

and the more of the Spirit we have the

more faith we have.

[skyblue888]

Samie, the point I am trying to make

is that not all men are attached to

Christ in the spiritual sense. They

may be attached to Him as far as their

physical nature is concerned for He is

the life of everything that lives but that

connection does not attach them to Him

spiritually for in order to have a

spiritual connection with Him men

must exercise "the faith that was

once delivered to the saints," which

is "the faith that works by love."

Jude 3; Gal.5:6. And this faith is

the gift of God in Christ by the

Holy Spirit.

We are not a member of His body in

the spiritual sense unless we are

united to Him by faith. So being

a member of His body as far as

Him being the Head of every man

spiritually, is not automatic by

the fact that Christ died for every

man. In order to become one with Him

spiritually one must continually

exercise the faith that lays right

hold upon the merits of the blood

that was shed for us upon Calvary's

cross, which merits Jesus is pleading

before the Father in our behalf.

In oder words, God will not work in us

both to will and to do His good pleasure

in the spiritual sense unless we consent

and continue in the faith.

sky

[Samie]

...

So the above clearly states that unless we are

following Jesus into the Most Holy Place and

understand His work there, we cannot exercise

the faith that is required of us today and to

us the door is shut just as the door of mercy

was shut to the Jews who failed to follow

Jesus into the Holy Place after His ascension

in order to benefit from His mediation.

sky

[skyblue888]

Are you saying all who ends up in heaven understood what Jesus is doing now?

Samie

________________

You could not possible be asking

such a question unless you did not

read everything.

The post made it crystal clear that

because the Jews failed to follow

Jesus in the Holy Place of the

sanctuary above, to them the

door was shut since for them it

was the present truth.

Today the present truth is that

unless we follow Jesus into the

Most Holy place, especially when

the light is shining upon us,

to us the door is shut.

sky

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Bro sky;

Correct, faith is a gift.

Can man receive gifts while dead? The obvious answer is No. So when did Christ give man the gift of faith: when man is still dead, or when he is already alive? The obvious answer is when man is already alive.

So which came first, the attaching of man to His Body, or the giving of faith to man?

Here's Biblical proof that attaching to His Body came first, before the giving of faith:

You know that faith is not only a gift; it is also fruit of the Spirit, don't you? (Gal 5:22). Do we bear fruit to be attached or we bear fruit because we are already attached? Here's what our Savior said:

NKJV John 15:4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Faith, both a gift and a fruit, results in being attached to Christ, not to be attached to Him.

Yet, it is insisted that believing (exercising faith) precedes attaching.

Wake up, people of God. Preach the Pure Gospel. Preach that we exercise faith because we have been attached to Him Who is our Strength. Not the other way around. That's what makes it false.

In Christ,

Samie

Thank you Samie, you wrote the Gospel to the honour of Jesus Christ here!

Is that you, Bro. GE? Praise God! To Him all honor is due.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gerr]

Christ said no man can come to Him unless the Father draws Him:

Quote:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ...

Absolutely true!!!

Quote:

This is because man can do NOTHING if not attached to Him:

Quote:

John 15:5 ... apart from me you can do nothing.

"Nothing" obviously includes the acts of believing or exercising faith, repenting, deciding to be baptized and coming to Christ.

False conclusion. Repeating an error a million x, Samie, will not make it true. To say that those not attached to Christ cannot do anything is plain nonsense, if I may be frank. Sin separates us from God, Isa 59:2. After Adam and Eve sinned and made that separation, did they become totally incapable of doing anything? Did God pull the plug when they sinned? Does not our gracious God still send His rain and His sun to shine on His separated children? So where in the Bible does it that we are dead and incapable of doing anything?

When the wayward son left and separated himself from home, did he die and became incapable of doing anything? How was he reconciled to his Prodigal Father?

And how does faith comes to a person? ESV | ýRo 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." He hears about the love and goodness of God which leads him to repentance, Ro 2:4. For the wayward son, he remembered the goodness of his father, and he repented.

Quote:

On the cross, Christ made us His body of which He is the Head:

If you read the preceding verses of Ephesians 2:13ff, you will find that people are not born as a part of or attached to the body of Christ. They are "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind," Eph 2:3.

Furthermore, if everyone is already born attached and reconciled to God, what did the Apostle John mean when he said, ESV | ý1 Jn 3:10 "By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

How does one become a child of God and a child of the devil?

And what's the point of missions if everyone is already reconciled and attached to Christ?

[Samie]

Quote:

Through Christ, restoration as well as reconciliation is provided for man. The gulf that was made by sin has been spanned by the cross of Calvary. A full, complete ransom has been paid by Jesus, by virtue of which the sinner is pardoned, and the justice of the law is maintained {RH July 1, 1890, par. 10}

Our great High Priest completed the sacrificial offering of Himself when He suffered without the gate. Then a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. Jesus is our Advocate, our High Priest, our Intercessor. Our present position therefore is like that of the Israelites, standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.—Manuscript 128, 1897. {7ABC 459.8}

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.—The Signs of the Times, June 28, 1899. {7ABC 459.7}

The time had come for the universe of Heaven to accept their King. Angels, cherubim and seraphim, would now stand in view of the cross.... The Father accepts the Son. No language could convey the rejoicing of Heaven or God’s expression of satisfaction and delight in His only begotten Son as He saw the completion of the atonement.—The Signs of the Times, August 16, 1899. {7ABC 460.1}

He planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The atonement is complete.” {RH September 24, 1901, par. 11}

The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption—the Son of God uplifted on the cross. This is to be the foundation of every discourse given by our ministers.—Gospel Workers, 315 (1915). {Ev 190.1}

Sister White passed away believing the sacrifice of Christ is atonement for sin. That atonement was complete. Sadly, people insists there was no atonement made on Calvary. Sorry, but it is tantamount to concluding that what the Father concluded as COMPLETE ATONEMENT, His professed people sees as NO ATONEMENT at all. Is this not UNBELIEF?

And Samie is not saying there's no end-time judgment. Scriptures say there is. Judgment is meted when somebody dies (Heb 9:27). Christ speaks of a day of judgment (Matt 10:15; 12:36), when everyone gets rewarded according to his works (Matt 16:27; Rom 2:5-8; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 22:12).

But Scriptures NOWHERE speak about an Investigative Judgment where God is forced to remember the sins He said He will remember NO MORE (Heb 10:17). The act of "remembering sins NO MORE" cannot coexist with "Investigative Judgment" because in "investigating", sins are always remembered!

In Christ,

Samie

[skyblue888]

But Scriptures NOWHERE speak about an Investigative Judgment...

Samie

______________

Wrong. In the parable of Wedding Garment

at the end of the third call the King

comes into the room to "examine" the

guests. This is the investigative

judgment of the living when the mission

of the Gospel is completed. Matt.22:11.

In the parable of the Net the fish are

sorted out when the ship comes to shore.

This is a work of examination. It is

the investigative judgment of the

living at the end of the loud cry.

sky

[Samie]

Sorry, Bro Gerry, if I had spoken spiritual things.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

[skyblue888]

Samie, if you think the advent message

is a hoax you are sadly mistaken.

[Gerr]

Sorry, Bro Gerry, if I had spoken spiritual things.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Another erroneous conclusion! You are saying you are spiritual and I am carnal or a babe in Christ. For anyone to say that anyone who disagrees with them is carnal and unspiritual is unmitigated hubris, imho. If I am still carnal, then your theory that since the Cross, all have been reconciled and attached to the body of Christ is totally in error. If one is attached to Christ, one cannot be carnal!!! That person is spiritual!!!

Why don't you address the issues I raised in the previous post instead of making assumptions about another believer's spirituality?

[Gerr]

I suggest you do a little more searching!

"For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ," 2 Cor 5:10 ESV.

And this judgment "begin at the household of God," 1 Pe 4:17 ESV.

Would any Judge render a decision/conclusion without investigating the facts? That is done only by dictators and prejudiced people.

"The judges shall investigate thoroughly....." Dt 19:18 NASB.

If you have repented and confessed and forsaken your sins before you come to judgment, then there's nothing for the Judge to remember!!!

[Samie]

But Scriptures NOWHERE speak about an Investigative Judgment...

Samie

______________

Wrong. In the parable of Wedding Garment

at the end of the third call the King

comes into the room to "examine" the

guests. This is the investigative

judgment of the living when the mission

of the Gospel is completed. Matt.22:11

[skyblue888]

To see who has the wedding garment on.

If one is found without the wedding

garment he is cast out.

This is the investigative judgment of

the living at the end of the loud

cry at the time of the great final

test.

"When the mission of the Gospel is

completed the judgment will accomplish

the work of separation." C.O.L.122.

This can only be the judgment of the

living.

sky

[skyblue888]

In the parable of the net, the casting of the net

during the loud cry brings good and bad fish into

the ship.

When the ship is full it goes to shore

and the fish are sorted out.

This is a work of examination which

is the investigative judgment of the

living when the mission of the Gospel

is completed.

This is very simple to understand but

spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

sky

[Gerr]

Christ said no man can come to Him unless the Father draws Him:

Quote:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ...

This is because man can do NOTHING if not attached to Him:

Quote:

John 15:5 ... apart from me you can do nothing.

"Nothing" obviously includes the acts of believing or exercising faith, repenting, deciding to be baptized and coming to Christ.

Your "obvious" conclusion looks very obviously erroneous to me. Without the Holy Spirit doing the drawing and convicting, man would be incapable of responding, that is true. But man was/is given the power to say "yes" or "no" to God. Lucifer and a third of the angels did. So did A & E, and millions of people today.

"Choose this day whom you will serve." "Whosoever will may come." Why would the Bible say that if man is incapable of choosing?

The jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" What was the response? "You are ALREADY saved, reconciled, atoned for?" No! "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you WILL BE saved..." That's future tense. He was not told he was already saved.

Our gracious Father never saves anyone or reconciles/atones anyone against his will.

Quote:

On the cross, Christ made us His body of which He is the Head:

Quote:

Ephesians 2:13-16 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, ...15 ... to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross

Ephesians 5:23 ... Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Again, I urge you to read the context of the above quote. What does Paul say in the first few verses of Eph 2? In v.3 Paul says the Ephesians were "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." That Paul was talking to the Ephesian believers and not all Ephesians can be seen in v.2 & 11,12.

Quote:

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

There is no argument about the Church being the body of Christ.

Quote:

Our being attached to Christ as part of His Body, is Christ's own doing. Not ours, because while separate from Him we can do NOTHING.

I already addressed this point in a previous post and again above. Repetition does not make an error true.

There are two different brands of gospel:

If atonement was completed at the Cross, then why is Christ working as our High Priest & Mediator in the heavenly Sanctuary?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Sorry, Bro Gerry, if I had spoken spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Another erroneous conclusion! You are saying you are spiritual and I am carnal or a babe in Christ. For anyone to say that anyone who disagrees with them is carnal and unspiritual is unmitigated hubris, imho. If I am still carnal, then your theory that since the Cross, all have been reconciled and attached to the body of Christ is totally in error. If one is attached to Christ, one cannot be carnal!!! That person is spiritual!!!

[Gerr]

So, you are saying Paul was in error when He called carnal the "babes IN CHRIST"? Did you notice, they are IN Christ, attached to Him, but carnal, why? They choose to live carnally, instead of living spiritually.

Paul was not wrong, but your interpretation of what he said is erroneous imho. Was Paul saying that those attached to Christ are carnal? That babes in Christ are carnal? I don't think so!!! Here's what he said in different translations.

NIV84 | ‎1 Co 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.

‎‎NRSV | ‎1 Co 3:1 And so, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but rather as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

HOWEVER, BRETHREN, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [unable to talk yet!]

The Amplified Bible. (1987). (1 Co 3:1). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Paul here is talking about 3 different people - the spiritual, the carnal, and the babes in Christ (new believers). Newborn Christians may look AS THOUGH they are carnal. That's because behavior cannot/does not totally change overnight. It requires time for growth.

Here's what happens to sinners attached to Christ.

ESV | ‎Jn 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

What kind of fruit? ESV | ‎Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ‎23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

And the carnal who are not abiding or attached to Christ? ESV | ‎Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, ‎20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, ‎21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Quote:

And sorry, if you think I considered you carnal. You acted like one in calling the Father a prodigal.

Who is the real prodigal in the story?

prodigal

■ adjective

1 wastefully extravagant.

2 lavish.

■ noun a prodigal person.

▶ (also prodigal son or daughter) a person who leaves home to lead a prodigal life but returns repentant. [with allusion to the parable in Luke 15:11–32.]

– DERIVATIVES prodigality noun prodigally adverb

– ORIGIN Middle English: from late Latin prodigalis, from Latin prodigus ‘lavish’.

Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Is your father a scrooge? A penny pincher? I make no apologies for calling my Father prodigal - wastefully extravagant and lavish. He emptied the vault of heaven in the person of His Son to do what? He could have made man with just one kidney, one lung, one leg, one eye, one ear. But He is so prodigal He gave two of each! Look all around you and see how extravagant the Father is!

[Samie]

To see who has the wedding garment on.

If one is found without the wedding

garment he is cast out.

This is the investigative judgment of

the living at the end of the loud

cry at the time of the great final

test.

"When the mission of the Gospel is

completed the judgment will accomplish

the work of separation." C.O.L.122.

This can only be the judgment of the

living.

sky

[Samie]

In the parable of the net, the casting of the net

during the loud cry brings good and bad fish into

the ship.

When the ship is full it goes to shore

and the fish are sorted out.

This is a work of examination which

is the investigative judgment of the

living when the mission of the Gospel

is completed.

This is very simple to understand but

spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

sky

[Samie]

...

Paul here is talking about 3 different people - the spiritual, the carnal, and the babes in Christ (new believers). Newborn Christians may look AS THOUGH they are carnal. That's because behavior cannot/does not totally change overnight. It requires time for growth.

[Samie]

...

If atonement was completed at the Cross, then why is Christ working as our High Priest & Mediator in the heavenly Sanctuary?