Atonement - when?

[ClubV12]

Speaking of contradictions,,, we find this from the 1858 Great Controversy (also in Spiritual Gifts Vol 1 and Early Writings),

"He who is the father of lies, blinds and deceives the world by sending his angels forth to speak for apostles, and make it appear that they contradict what they wrote when on earth, which was dictated by the Holy Ghost. These lying angels make the apostles to corrupt their own teachings and declare them to be adulterated."

A behind the scenes look at "apparent contradictions" where none, in reality, exist.

[Samie]

...

Stop the feigned indignation Samie, You did attack her integrity when you implied that the 1911 GC's statements on the atonement were not in accordance with her personal belief. Then when I gave you a 1905 quote , you did the same thing. It doesn't matter that she first said such statements in 1888, The fact that she chose to repeat them at later dates means she still believed them . You have implied that did not still believe them.

She did not change her mind, but you have misconstrued her statements on the atonement being perfect and complete so as to force her to contradict herself. But rather than admit that you chose to believe that she had changed her mind yet published statements in 1905 and 1911 that were not in accordance with her present beliefs.

When it comes to the bringing of truth to God's people, the Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. This is why He inspired Sister White to write in 1899 that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. She did not change her mind since then. The 1905 and 1911 dates were mere republication dates of what she had written prior to 1899.

I am not attacking her integrity. These are statements of facts. To turn around from what is a false belief to what is truth is not a decision that impinge upon one's integrity. This is the same case when she turned from Sunday-keeping to Sabbath-keeping. It is standing for truth though the heavens fall.

In Christ,

Samie

[ClubV12]

Sister White said Jesus went into the Most Holy Place in 1844, which means He was in the Holy place before that.

If someone is going to use Sister White as a referrence, as an inspired authority, then lets not pick and choose which parts we like or don't like. She is either inspired on the issues of doctrine, or she is not.

Offering her opinion on what color dress looks good on her sister is one thing, declaring, confirming a doctrinal point is entirely another!

[phkrause]

Sister White said Jesus went into the Most Holy Place in 1844, which means He was in the Holy place before that.

If someone is going to use Sister White as a referrence, as an inspired authority, then lets not pick and choose which parts we like or don't like. She is either inspired on the issues of doctrine, or she is not.

Offering her opinion on what color dress looks good on her sister is one thing, declaring, confirming a doctrinal point is entirely another!

[Samie]

Sister White counsels us to make Scriptures the authority for conscience:

Quote:

Truth, Bible truth, is to become the authority for the conscience and the love and life of the soul.—Letter 121, 1900. {Ev 542.1}

According to Scriptures, where did Christ go when He ascended to heaven?

Quote:

NKJ Mark 16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

NKJ Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As per Scriptures, Christ, upon His ascension, sat down at the right hand of God's throne which is in the Most Holy Place.

And that was long before 1844.

In Christ,

Samie

[ClubV12]

Only two choices here Samie, you have misinterpreted the verse or Sister White is not a prophet. Her work is in harmony with the bible, or it isn't.

It is impossible for a prophet to contradict another prophet, a biblical author in this case, so there remains only one possible conclusion. You misinterpret the verse, wrest it to your own destruction. The bible and Sister White are in perfect harmony because they are both prophetic and God doesn't lie!

"Bible truth", an example of "bible truth" would be the work of Ellen White.

[Samie]

Bro Jackson;

Jesus came as High Priest, not as common Priest. When He offered Himself on the cross he was typifying the annual ministration of the High Priest at Yum Kippur, ONCE for all eternity. It is finished, He declared.

But you refuse to believe it was finished on the cross.

You want Jesus to do it all over again. You came up with a concocted parallelism that what the common priests were doing in the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary was antitype of what our Great High Priest need to do in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary. And so Jesus, despite being a High Priest, had to tarry in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary to do the work of ordinary priests. You need to close your eyes to the crystal-clear Biblical proclamation that Jesus went straight to the throne of the Father in the Most Holy Place upon His ascension otherwise your concoction turns sour.

This is why you are forced to send sins for cleansing to an otherwise sin-free heaven but now painted sin-stained by your anti-biblical concoction. This is why you are forced to describe our God Who remembers our sins NO MORE, as keeping a record of sins He does not even want to remember. This is why you cannot believe the Scriptures when it says we were atoned and reconciled to God by the death of His Son. This is why you cannot believe when, at the leading of the Holy Spirit, Sister White wrote in 1899 that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Hi Samie,

...

The only reason I can see for your doing this, is that you want to believe that all sins, past, present and future were forgiven at the cross, and the thought that a judgment and final atonement await every professed believer in Christ is unsettling to you.

[skyblue888]

Hi Samie,

William Miller had a very practical rule for forming Bible doctrine, He said:

To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error. Isaiah 28:7-29; 35:8; Proverbs 19:27; Luke 24:27,44,45; Rom 16:26; James 5:19; 2 Pet 1:19, 20.

You have not done this Samie.

What you have done is take all scriptures that you think you can use to fit your doctrine and dismiss those scriptures that contradict it. For example, the Bible says the earthly sanctuary was a pattern of the heavenly. It had 2 apartments and an atonement was made for the repentant sinner as he offered his lamb. In addition, a final atonement was made for him on the Day of Atonement when his sins were put on the scapegoat. Your doctrine, in contrast, completely eliminates any use of the first apartment in the Heavenly Sanctuary, puts the atonement before Pentecost, has the atonement before the judgment, and has the scapegoat being hung on a cross and put to death. These are all contradictions that make the earthly sanctuary, not a type or pattern at all.

The only reason I can see for your doing this, is that you want to believe that all sins, past, present and future were forgiven at the cross, and the thought that a judgment and final atonement await every professed believer in Christ is unsettling to you.

I am sure you have read Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" and you have read Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;". These are verses that contradict your doctrine , so you dismiss them and go merrily on your way proclaiming that all sins were forgiven at the cross.

You keep claiming "the Bible only" but you misuse it by picking and choosing only verses that seem to fit your doctrine . Anyone can find a Bible verse that when isolated can fit any doctrine they choose to dream up. But a serious Bible student will follow William Miller's advice as noted above.

Well done Jackson.

sky

[skyblue888]

"The heavenly temple, the abiding place of the King of kings, where "thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him" (Daniel 7:10), that temple filled with the glory of the eternal throne, where seraphim, its shining guardians, veil their faces in adoration--no earthly structure could represent its vastness and its glory. Yet important truths concerning the heavenly sanctuary and the great work there carried forward for man's redemption were to be taught by the earthly sanctuary and its services.

After His ascension, our Saviour was to begin His work as our High Priest. Says Paul, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24. As Christ's ministration was to consist of two great divisions, each occupying a period of time and having a distinctive place in the heavenly sanctuary, so the typical ministration consisted of two divisions, the daily and the yearly service, and to each a department of the tabernacle was devoted.

As Christ at His ascension appeared in the presence of God to plead His blood in behalf of penitent believers, SO the priest in the daily ministration sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice in the holy place in the sinner's behalf.

The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; SO in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement.

In the great day of final award, the dead are to be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12. Then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven. Thus the sanctuary will be freed, or cleansed, from the record of sin.

In the type, this great work of atonement, or blotting out of sins, was represented by the services of the Day of Atonement--the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary, which was accomplished by the removal, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, of the sins by which it had been polluted.

As in the final atonement the sins of the truly penitent are to be blotted from the records of heaven, no more to be remembered or come into mind, so in the type they were borne away into the wilderness, forever separated from the congregation.

Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat.

Thus in the ministration of the tabernacle, and of the temple that afterward took its place, the people were taught each day the great truths relative to Christ's death and ministration, and once each year their minds were carried forward to the closing events of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, the final purification of the universe from sin and sinners." Patriarchs & Prophets, 357-358.

The above says it all and it is all based on the Scriptures which teach type and antitype.

If they do not speak according to the type it is because there is no light in them.

sky

[Samie]

Bro sky,

Sister White's take of atonement you quoted from The Acts of the Apostles was written before 1884 and had been superseded by what she wrote in 1899 that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. She never changed her mind since then.

Won't you follow the example taken by Sister White in standing for truth though heavens fall?

In Christ,

Samie

[skyblue888]

"The testimonies themselves will be the KEY

that will EXPLAIN the messages given, as

Scripture is explained by Scripture."

1 S.M.43.

Samie, you are pitting statement against statement

instead of comparing statement with statement as

one statement explains another statement.

Time to rest our case.

sky

[Samie]

Instead of pitting statement against statement, it's discerning truth from error. Sister White ultimately knew which is which. And she sided with truth no matter what.

Truth does not rest its case and triumphs in the end.

[skyblue888]

Samie, how can we take you seriously when

you fix your eyes on a couple of statements

to support a narrow view, refusing to let

the other statements explain what they really

mean? If we were to accept your private

interpretation of these statements we would

have to throw away all the other statements

as meaningless and all the other statements

in regard to the 2,300 day prophecy as

pointless, hence we would have to conclude

that the Advent movement was a hoax.

sky

[Samie]

sky and jackson;

All your objections to my posts were adequately responded to and those responses remain UNREFUTED, and you know it.

You wanted Scriptures. I have proven from Scriptures that atonement had been done on the cross. And I can do it again, and again, and again. Your requirement that Christ need to do what the common priests did in the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary, that is why He had to tarry in the Holy Place at His ascension, is BEREFT of Scriptural basis. Scriptures tell us Christ came as High Priest, not as common priest, and that when He ascended He sat down at the right hand of God's throne which is in the Most Holy Place. Since you cannot refute this Scriptural fact, you accuse me of wresting Scriptures.

Unable to find refuge in Scriptures, you ran to the writings of Sister White. But I showed you that Sister White herself passed away believing that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. Again, as expected, you accuse me of wresting her writings.

Show proof from Scriptures, brothers. Not mere accusations.

Quote:

Investigation of Doctrine—There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. {CW 35.2}

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Samie,

Another perfect example of your forcing Mrs White to contradict herself.

[Samie]

I took her word for it, bro jackson. These are her words:

Quote:

When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.—The Signs of the Times, June 28, 1899. {7ABC 459.7}

He [Christ] planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The Atonement is complete.”—The Review and Herald, September 24, 1901. {7ABC 459.6}

She passed away standing for truth though heavens fall.

I gave Samie statements from her dated in 1905 and 1911 confirming that she did not change her views on the sanctuary doctrine, and he replied that she no longer believed those statements- implying that she she was publishing statements that she no longer believed were true.

[skyblue888]

Samie, you remember when I quoted from

1 S.M.42 where it says that

"The Testimonies themselves

will be the key that will explain the

messages given, as Scripture is explained

by Scripture."

Now compare this statement:

"He [Christ] planted the cross between

heaven and earth, and when the Father

beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He

bowed before it in recognition of its

perfection. 'It is enough,' He said.

'The Atonement is

complete.'"—The Review and

Herald, September 24, 1901.

{7ABC 459.6}

With this statement:

"He planted the cross between earth

and Heaven, and between divinity and

humanity; and as the Father beheld the

cross, He was satisfied, He said,

'It is enough, the

offering is complete.'" 5 B.C.1138.

Here she says that God said,

"The offering is complete."

And this is in harmony with the statement

in A.A.29 which says that the sacrifice

of Christ upon the cross was the condition

of the atonement.

Does someone have a cd rom to verify the

statement Samie quoted from the Review

Herald, Sept.24, 1901.

sky

[skyblue888]

If the atonement was complete at the cross

then Jesus could not have ascended up on

High to make atonement for our transgressions.

But He did ascend up on High to make atonement.

"The intercession of Christ in our behalf is that

of presenting His divine merits in the offering of

Himself to the Father as our substitute and surety;

for He ascended up on High to MAKE ATONEMENT for our

transgressions." F.W.105.

And from the same source there are plenty of statements

that speak of Christ entering into the final phase of

the atonement in 1844.

sky

[ClubV12]

"Christ came as a man, that He might meet men where they are. Had He come in all His glory, human beings could not have endured the sight. "Though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich." He planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. "It is enough," He said. "The atonement is complete."

The Review and Herald, September 24, 1901 par. 11

He ascended twice. Just after meeting Mary and telling her not to touch Him, Sunday morning. He met with the Father in heaven, who verified His sacrafice was acceptable and then returned sometime Sunday afternoon, toward evening. When He met with the apostles.

He ascended a second time forty days later to begin His work as the High Priest in the Holy Place. He could not begin His work as High Priest until He had verified the sacrafice was acceptable to His Father. It was characteristic of Jesus to NOT take things for granted, no presumption. He did everything in an orderly fashion and ALWAYS depended on His Father before taking the next step.

[skyblue888]

Thanks Club.

Even in the grave He waited for the Father

to raise His humanity. He could have

raised it Himself from the dead but

He did not.

sky

[Samie]

Samie, you remember when I quoted from

1 S.M.42 where it says that

"The Testimonies themselves

will be the key that will explain the

messages given, as Scripture is explained

by Scripture."

Now compare this statement:

"He [Christ] planted the cross between

heaven and earth, and when the Father

beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He

bowed before it in recognition of its

perfection. 'It is enough,' He said.

'The Atonement is

complete.'"—The Review and

Herald, September 24, 1901.

{7ABC 459.6}

With this statement:

"He planted the cross between earth

and Heaven, and between divinity and

humanity; and as the Father beheld the

cross, He was satisfied, He said,

'It is enough, the

offering is complete.'" 5 B.C.1138.

Here she says that God said,

"The offering is complete."

And this is in harmony with the statement

in A.A.29 which says that the sacrifice

of Christ upon the cross was the condition

of the atonement.

Does someone have a cd rom to verify the

statement Samie quoted from the Review

Herald, Sept.24, 1901.

sky

[Samie]

...

Now if you have a statement after 1911 where she repudiates her belief that that the Adventist Sanctuary doctrine is a pillar of the church and was attested to by the Holy Spirit, then produce it. If you cannot, then stop all the pompous pronouncements proclaiming her change of heart and admit you are wrong.

[Samie]

I rather side with Sister White in being stubborn to UNTRUTH, than side with you and be stubborn to TRUTH as it is in Scriptures.

You said that Atonement comes in 2 phases. Then paraded verses on atonement done in the first compartment and the final atonement done at Yum Kippur. What you DELIBERATELY left out is the biblical information that the SIN OFFERING for ATONEMENT done in the first compartment is for FORGIVENESS:

Quote:

Leviticus 4:25-26 25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

At Yum Kippur, the SIN OFFERING for ATONEMENT done in the most holy place is CLEANSING from all sin:

Quote:

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

In the Old Covenant, atonement done DAILY in the holy place and atonement done in the most holy place were effected via SIN OFFERINGS. But in the New Covenant, there is only one SIN OFFERING:

Quote:

Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

That one SIN OFFERING on the cross covered both FORGIVENESS & CLEANSING from all sins:

Quote:

NASB Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

KJV Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

This is why Sister White said that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. Why perfect? Because it covered both the two (2) phases you were talking about: what was done in the holy place - forgiveness - and what was done in the most holy place - cleansing.

Isn't it about time you side with us with Sister White in this issue of perfect atonement on the cross, Bro Jackson?

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

My apologies regarding my last post.

"stubborn to UNTRUTH" should read "stubborn against UNTRUTH".

"stubborn to TRUTH" should read "stubborn against TRUTH".