Atonement - when?

[Samie]

2 Peter 3:16 (KJV)

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Ezekiel 33:18

"If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it."

Once saved, always saved is a doctrine of the devil.

No matter how many verses are posted, some people will not believe. False prophets and wolves in sheep clothing always offer what they claim are "proof texts". But there is no light in them.

Congratulations, Bro. Club. At last, I am beginning to see verses. Sadly, your animosity against a brother is still showing.

While levelling the verses you used against my post, those verses ratify it instead. Yes, you are PARTLY right, "Once saved, always saved is a doctrine of the devil." That is why I don't preach that doctrine. Instead, I preach that God through Christ saved us all from sin, with no one left out nor exempted, but only overcomers will inherit eternal life. This is in my post which you refuse to understand, including all the verses that back up my position on what the Pure Gospel is.

[ClubV12]

Verses don't prove anything, thats the job of the Holy Spirit. Even when one is convinced of the truth of a verse or a doctrine, it still doesn't mean your a true follower of Christ.

The devil can quote scripture, knows it better than any of us, BELIEVES it (and trembles), but it won't get him back into heaven.

It appears that some folks are SO convinced all they have to do is "prove" something with scripture and pile up the verses and they "win" the argument. Like the guy with the most toys win when he dies. Wins what? He still dies, he's gained nothing.

[Samie]

The Bible with all its verses tell us everything about salvation. The Holy Spirit will bring things to our remembrance (John 14:26). But we can only remember that which we previously knew from Scriptures.

Without valid proof from Scriptures every Tom. Dick and Harry can claim it is what the Holy Spirit impressed him. Good thing we have the Bible. We can then turn to its sacred pages and see for ourselves whether the claim of Tom is true, because the Holy Spirit will never go against what Jesus taught in Scriptures (John 16:13, 14).

[ClubV12]

It is my determination, Samie, from your testimony, that you speak not according to the law and the testimony. That you preach a false doctrine. That you do wrest the scriptures to your own destruction. Just my opinion, perhaps others see it differently, let every man be convinced in his own heart.

And not just your recent testimony, we have talked before, months ago. I have seen your testimony and false doctrine you present on other websites. My opinion is based on a chain of evidence going back a long time.

[Samie]

No problem, Bro. Club.

Whatever you say against what I have posted does not determine its truthfulness. It is what Scriptures say. Branding as false what are Scripturally unimpeachable posts from others is branding Scriptures to be false as well. Beware, my brother. Have a good day ahead.

[ClubV12]

To the law AND to the Testimony.

Since you are aware of the Testimony of Jesus, the Spirit of Prophecy, as demonstrated by His servant, His messenger, Ellen White. And since you have rejected that light along with His chosen people, the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church, of which you have great knowledge and studied with, the conclusion is sure, the deception is revealed.

There is no light in your doctrine. It is a mixture of truth and error. It's very sad Samie, I wish you the best, but I cannot offer you my blessing. Lest it appear that in some way I am sanctioning your work.

[Samie]

It's the other way around, Bro. Club.

You chose to believe in what Crozier said that no atonement was made at Calvary. Sister White debunked this statement of Crozier by saying a perfect Atonement was made on the cross, in consonance with what Scriptures say, debunking her endorsement of Crozier 52 years earlier. Samie stands on solid ground with Sister White in the issue of Atonement on the cross.

[Samie]

Sammie,

...

Christ died to make an atoning sacrifice for our sins. At the father's right hand He is interceding for us as our High Priest. By the sacrifice of His life He purchased redemption for us. His atonement is effectual for every one who will humble himself, and receive Christ as his example in all things. If the Saviour had not given His life as a propitiation for our sins, the whole human family would have perished. They would have had no right to heaven. It is through His intercession that we, through faith, repentance, and conversion, are enabled to become partakers of the divine nature, and thus escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.--Manuscript 29, 1906. {7ABC 477.6}

[Samie]

Within the Veil - Hebrews 6:19-20

The following explanation on "within the veil" is from an Adventist scholar proficient in Greek. I copied it from a book or website a long time ago but I neglected to record the author's name.

In reality, the Bible itself teaches that "within the veil" In Hebrews 6:19 refers to Christ's entrance into the first apartment; Ellen White simply agreed with it.

Here is Hebrews 6:19-20:

(6:19) "Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; (6:20) whither the Forerunner Is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

Just what does 6:19-20 say, and what does it not say? According to this passage, (1) Jesus had already gone somewhere by Paul's time. (2) That place was "within the veil. "And that is all we are told! In spite of all Ballenger's and Ford's claims to the contrary. Hebrews 6:19-20 does not say "second apartment," and it does not say "most holy place."

...

[Gibs]

It appears she might disagree with herself but I choose not to believe that, as it appears the sacrifice was complete on the cross and was perfect but the rest of the procedure can't be completed until His, Christ's work is completed in the Heavenly Sanctuary. So we will see the work of the Atonement is still going on.

Please read EGW's explanation carefully and slowly here,

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13. {FLB 207.1}

After His ascension, our Saviour began His work as our high priest. Says Paul, "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24. . . . {FLB 207.2}

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time . . . our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of His solemn work--to cleanse the sanctuary. . . . {FLB 207.3}

The coming of Christ as our high priest to the most holy place, for the cleansing of the sanctuary, brought to view in Daniel 8:14; the coming of the Son of man to the Ancient of days, as presented in Daniel 7:13; and the coming of the Lord to His temple, foretold by Malachi, are descriptions of the same event; and this is also represented by the coming of the bridegroom to the marriage, described by Christ in the parable of the ten virgins, of Matthew 25. {FLB 207.4}

The cleansing of the sanctuary . . . involves a work of investigation --a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. {FLB 207.5}

In the day of final reckoning, position, rank, or wealth will not alter by a hair's breadth the case of any one. By the all-seeing God, men will be judged by what they are in purity, in nobility, in love for Christ. {FLB 207.6}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Bro Gibs;

Sister White had the courage to take her stand alongside Scriptures and completely reversed her endorsement of Crozier. I just hope you would do the same. Not in the spirit of sarcasm but rather of warning:

NASB 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 ... because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

...

Bro Jackson,

There is nothing in the above quote that negates what she wrote in 1899 that "When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people." {7ABC 459.7}

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. {GC 422.1} (1911)

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

.

...

Bro. Jackson, Did you ever try comparing Scripture with Scripture, and allowed the Bible to explain itself, instead of merely relying on Bible scholars born with Greek & Hebrew languages in their tongues?

Exodus 26:33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

The verse above tells us that the phrase "within the vail" refers to a location in the sanctuary where the ark of the testimony is to be placed. What is this location called?

Exodus 26:34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place.

The location in the sanctuary where the ark of the covenant is to be placed, is called the most holy place. Therefore, allowing Scriptures to explain itself, the phrase "within the veil" refers to the most holy place.

Simple, Biblical, and True.

Samie, be fair to Paul. You don't tell Paul what he meant by referring to what Moses meant when using the same phrase "within the veil". You must let Paul tell you what he means.

Moses showed which of the two sanctuary veils he meant when he described the ark of the covenant as being within that veil, so obviously he meant the Second Apartment.

Paul uses his own words to describe the two veils. When he refers to the Second Apartment he uses the term "second veil". Why should anyone assume that "within the veil always means second apartment just because Moses used that Term? Is not Paul capable of explaining which veil he is referring to when he speaks for himself?

[Samie]

Quote:

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support. {GC88 595.1}

[Gibs]

Bro Gibs;

Sister White had the courage to take her stand alongside Scriptures and completely reversed her endorsement of Crozier. I just hope you would do the same. Not in the spirit of sarcasm but rather of warning:

NASB 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 ... because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false

In Christ,

Samie

Never the less Samie, you and I and all need to be glad the throne of grace is still open and the atonement is still going on and will until Jesus says, "it is finished"

All cases are not decided yet and when He comes His reward will be with Him.

The atonement is completed when our high priest comes out of the Most Holy ministering for us and offering, "My blood, My blood!

It is just like Jesus said it is finished here,

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

But what was finished? The offering was complete and fully satisfied His and our Father.

The meaning of Atonement is simply "at one ment" and the at one ment is when Christ is finished in the Holy Place.

The "quickened" are at one with Him and the rest are walking dead men.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Bro Gibs,

At-one-ment is finished at the cross. God had already attached us to the body of His Son (Eph 2:11-19). We cannot do anything unless attached to Christ, at-one with Him Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13).

I am with you in the issue of overcoming, not in the issue of atonement; I chose to be with Sister White, instead. I urge you to come over this side of the fence with Sister White who herself passed away believing a perfect atonement was completed at the cross.

In Christ,

Samie

[ClubV12]

Sister White did not say what you are presenting, you are twisting her words just as you have twisted the biblical authors words.

[Samie]

Here you come again, Bro Club. Welcome back to discussion on Atonement. Here are her words you said I twisted.

Quote:

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.—The Signs of the Times, June 28, 1899. {7ABC 459.7}

He [Christ] planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The Atonement is complete.”—The Review and Herald, September 24, 1901. {7ABC 459.6}

Where is the twisting when I said Sister White believed a perfect atonement was completed at the cross? Aren't you accusing a brother of the crime you are the one guilty of?

For long, you have been accusing me of twisting Scriptures without even attempting to show how. Won't you ever tire of casting accusations? Sorry, but it seems you are not aware in whose side you are with in your tireless accusations against a brother (Rev 12:10).

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Samie, are you implying that Mrs White knowingly left a statement that she knew to be false remain in the 1911 version of the GC? I hope you did not mean to attack her integrity.

[skyblue888]

In order to appreciate what Mrs. White meant

by the atonement being perfect or complete at

the cross one needs to compare statement with

statement as we have been instructed to do.

"The Testimonies themselves will

be the KEY that will EXPLAIN the messages

given, as Scripture is explained by

Scripture.." 1 S.M.42.

Notice these words again:

"Christ's sacrifice in behalf

of man was full and complete. The CONDITION

for the ATONEMENT had been fulfilled."

A.A.29.

That is why it is often called the "sacrificial

atonement."

Samie, insted of comparing statement with

statement you are pitting statement against

statement. One statement explains another.

In the statements you have quoted and which

speak of "perfect atonement" or "complete

atonement" at the cross means that the

sacrifice was full and complete which was

the CONDITION for the atonement. The atonement

did not begin until Jesus began to plead the

merits of His shed blood before the Father in

our behalf.

This is shown by the following:

"The intercession of Christ

in our behalf is that of presenting His

divine merits in the OFFERING of Himself

as our Substitute and Surety; for He ascended

up on High to make an atonement for our transgression."

Faith & Works, p.105.

During 1810 years Christ made atonement in

the first apartment of the sanctuary above.

On the 22nd of October 1844 He passed from

the Holy to the Most Holy to begin the final

phase of the atonement. Soon He will make

the final atonement and then probation will

close. There are dozens of statements in Mrs.

White's writings stating this.

So when we look at the big picture and we

allow the SoP to interpret itself, just

as the Bible is its own interpreter,

we cannot go wrong.

sky

[Samie]

Bro. sky,

"condition of the atonement" is a condition inherent in atonement itself.

"condition for the atonement" is an outside condition applied to atonement.

Sister White wrote "condition of the atonement".

You changed it to "condition for the atonement".

Similar to what translators did to "faith of Christ".

They changed it to "faith in Christ".

When people do this, it's not usually a good sign.

In Christ,

Samie

[ClubV12]

In this case the "typo" changes nothing. Here was see essentially the same comment in Desire of Ages.

"Christ’s words on the mountainside were the announcement that His sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The conditions of the atonement had been fulfilled; the work for which He came to this world had been accomplished. He was on His way to the throne of God, to be honored by angels, principalities, and powers. He had entered upon His mediatorial work."

The Desire of Ages 819

The conditions "for or of", either way, had been met. It was only THEN, afterward, when He entered upon His mediatorial work. Before the atonement, He had not earned the right to be a mediator for mankind. With His sacrafice accepted by the Father, He was found worthy of that position. A work which He continues today. That work will not be completed until Daniel 12:1 is fulfilled, when probation is closed for all mankind.

[ClubV12]

It is ironic that on this thread we have at least three people who profess to be Seventh-day Adventists, quote Ellen White and yet openly fight against the Church and certainly reject the organized Adventist Church as the chosen vessel of the Lord. As they fight against each other, confusion abounds on all sides.

Strange fire indeed...

[Samie]

After all what was posted, it is still what Scriptures say that must prevail, as Sister White herself declared.

Scriptures tell us sin separates us from God (Isa 59:2).

Scriptures tell us God had, on the cross, attached Jews and Gentiles to the body of His Son (Eph 2:11-19).

Scriptures tell us all our transgressions had been forgiven (Col 2:13).

Scriptures tell us the blood of Christ washed us clean from sin (Rev 1:5).

Scriptures tell us atonement had been received (Rom 5:10,11).

Scriptures tell us we were made holy (or sanctified) when Christ was offered as sacrifice for sin (Heb 10:10)

Scriptures tell us Christ was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25) so that when we sin the sin committed is not imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18,19), having been forgiven on the cross.

Scriptures tell us we need to overcome evil with good, another way of saying, Stop Sinning (Rom 12:21).

Scriptures tell us only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life and will inherit life eternal (Rom 2:5-11;Rev 3:5; 21:27).

But Scriptures do not tell us another atonement started in 1844. Sister White passed away believing that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, He made a perfect atonement for our sins.

In Christ,

Samie

[skyblue888]

"Christ's sacrifice in behalf

of man was full and complete. The CONDITION

for the ATONEMENT had been fulfilled."

This is a typo which was not intentional but

thank you Samie for noticing it.

sky

In this case the "typo" changes nothing. Here was see essentially the same comment in Desire of Ages.

"Christ’s words on the mountainside were the announcement that His sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The conditions of the atonement had been fulfilled; the work for which He came to this world had been accomplished. He was on His way to the throne of God, to be honored by angels, principalities, and powers. He had entered upon His mediatorial work."

The Desire of Ages 819

The conditions "for or of", either way, had been met. It was only THEN, afterward, when He entered upon His mediatorial work. Before the atonement, He had not earned the right to be a mediator for mankind. With His sacrafice accepted by the Father, He was found worthy of that position. A work which He continues today. That work will not be completed until Daniel 12:1 is fulfilled, when probation is closed for all mankind.

Club

Thank you for this quote Club. I had never noticed it.

I will use it from now on.

sky