Atonement - when?

[ClubV12]

Samie, we could go one for another 20 pages or so in discussing Hebrews and Daniel and prophecy and end up at the same place. Jesus did not debate doctrine with the woman at the well, He had a very simple message. "You need to leave the Church your in and come to the Jewish Church". The Samaritans hated the Jews, and likewise. The people of her village must have thought her completely mad when she gave her testimony in relation to the Jewish Church. Their pride would have prevented most from even considering such a thing.

Interesting to note, the Church He was calling her to was the same Church plotting to kill Him! Never the less, they were still Gods chosen messenger to a dieing world.

So it is today Samie, you will find no answers outside the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, as painful as that may be for you to hear, this day, the truth has come to you, again. You MUST come out if you want to be counted among His people.

"The third angel’s message is infallible. It is to unite a people to do a special work,,,."

Manuscript Releases, Volume 15, 362

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

You MUST come out if you want to be counted among His people.

Have you clarified in another post what one must come out of?

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 7:25 KJV

"And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird."Rev 18:2 NASB

"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12 NKJV

God cares!

[ClubV12]

Good point LifeHiscost. What IS Revelation 14 calling Gods people out from?

Samie, you know well the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. Would you care to answer LifeHiscost's question?

[Samie]

In a few minutes the SS will start. WiFi is still on.

Bro. Club, why not review your Bible again. You are losing track of where in Scriptures you quote from. The come out call is not in Rev 14. Happy Sabbath, again.

[ClubV12]

Rev 14 and Rev 18 go hand in hand. For instance, if one "comes out" (of Babylon) and is a Sabbath Keeper, is that all you need to do to keep from getting the "mark"? The rich young ruler thought so. He was "keeping the commandments", doing all the law commanded, following the instructions to the letter. Knowledgable concerning all the "proof texts". He was all about "salvation by works". Many will say, "Lord, Lord" and He knows them not.

To "come out of her my people" is to come into Christ and accept His righteousness.

[Samie]

The first set of statements says that the atonement was made on the cross; the other says that the final atonement was made 1800 years later.

Bro Jackson;

The first set was made in 1899 & 1901. How about the other set that says the final atonement was made 1800 years later? Was it before 1899 or after 1901?

[Samie]

Bro Jackson, Do you believe as I do that Sister White said a perfect atonement was done on the cross and that God the Father said that atonement was complete?

[ClubV12]

Atonement means "cover", like paint, or throwing a tarp over a boat, as used in referrence to Noah. Both for the pitch he used as well as the cover he used when the ark came to rest.

Covering something with paint or a tarp does not remove the underlaying problem. Something else must be done, at the base level, to remove the imperfections entirely.

This was done on the day of atonement, when the sins that had accumulated in the Most Holy Place (temporarily covered or atoned for, painted over) were placed on the evil doer, described as the scape goat.

Our sins, your sins, remain on the books of heaven, not yet purged. If that righteous man falls, his sins remain, though once forgiven, atoned for, the record will stand to condem him at the judgment. His good works will be blotted out and remembered no more. The ONLY record left is a life of sin.

[ClubV12]

The judgment review, on going right now, began on October 22, 1844, when Christ moved from the Holy to the Most Holy place. It does not investigate the wicked, it concerns itself ONLY with those who have professed to accept God. The wicked are already condemed, no review is required.

Of primary concern in the review is the "book of remembrance". That is the book wherein all the deeds of your life have been recorded. Every good, or evil, thought and act is noted. Sins confessed and repented of are, marked "pardoned" (or a word to the effect). But the record of sin, though marked pardoned, is not blotted out, not yet. Not until the final review of that individuals life record. It is THAT record of your life work that will determine if your name is or isn't blotted out from the "book of life". The book of life is then used to determine who will, or won't, be resurrected to eternal life, or death.

The book of records is also used to determine your reward. For the Saints, the record shows only good works. For the righteous who turned their foot away from righteousness (now wicked) it shows only their bad works. Reward, each according to their works.

Details of this important aspect of the judgment can be found in "Facing Lifes Record", chapter 28 of the Great Controversy.

[Gibs]

I do not believe any writing is going on with or in the Book of Life written before the foundation of the world. This is the Book or Scroll that is sealed with Seven seals.

It is depicted as a scroll written on the inside as well as the outside.

Now as each seal is removed certain things are revealed under that seal on the outside.

The scroll is not open yet until the judgment scene in Heaven and when it is there is silence for the space of half an hour,

Re 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The book of life was written before the foundation of the world, God knew us long before being formed in the womb and exactly how our lives would play out leaving us to be totally free of ourselves to choose our destiny!

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

We are playing out now what is written on the inside and it is not predestination!

So I ask, why the space of silence in Heaven when that seventh seal is removed and the contents revealed?

I believe it is Holy awe of our Great God and Saviour!

[Samie]

Excerpts from "Facing Life's Record": (emphases mine)

Quote:

“And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.” [Daniel 7:13, 14.] The coming of Christ here described is not his second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of days in Heaven to receive dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, which will be given him at the close of his work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not his second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days, in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God, to engage in the last acts of his ministration in behalf of man,—to perform the work of investigative Judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits. {GC88 479.3}

Bro. Club,

The above quote tells us the coming of Christ to the Father was in 1844. It follows that in 1844, He received dominion, and glory, and a kingdom. This dominion, and glory, and kingdom will be given Him at the close of his work as a mediator.

You will agree with me that until NOW Christ is still our Mediator, and therefore the close of His work as Mediator is still in the future. It appears that Christ will be given in the future what He already received in the past.

Can you please explain this inconsistency?

Normally, we only receive what is given. The receiving normally comes after the giving. I am sorry, but I have this funny feeling you will accuse me of wresting the quote above. If so, please also explain how I could have wrested the quote above.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

I do not believe any writing is going on with or in the Book of Life written before the foundation of the world. This is the Book or Scroll that is sealed with Seven seals.

Bro. Gibs;

It is not the writing that is going on, it is deleting. The writing has been done before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4; Rev 17:8).

Where in Revelation or anywhere else in Scriptures that identifies the Book Of Life as the "the Book or Scroll that is sealed with Seven seals"? Beware lest you be found adding to or taking away from what are written in Revelation (see Rev 22:18, 19)

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Discussions solely about the Book of Life, I think, is off-topic in this thread.

[Gibs]

No writing or deleting can be done in it as it is still sealed up until it is opened. Nor is this off topic as this is where the said deleting or writings would have to be! In other words it is locked up!

The book of life is still sealed as to what is inside and that is where the questioned writings are at!

We have been noting the opening of the seals for some time now and close to opening the sixth!

[Kevin H]

There is a two fold event going on; first is a review of those who have claimed to have accepted Christ to see how the Holy Spirit worked with them or if they were only giving lip service, or if they turned away. This helps the angles and beings on other worlds, even though they closed their probation on the cross, to help them have a fuller understanding about their own salvation, and review what they have been watching these past 2,000 years on how the death of Christ affects us.

For us on earth, we get to live in the age of exegeses, the ancient world has been rediscovered, we have been learning things about the world of the Bible and about the Bible like we never knew before. Increased semantics, literary structures, poetic structures, history, culture etc. We have Bible translations on the 3rd grade reading level. We can listen to the Bible while driving or working. We are living in an exciting age where we can "Investigate" the Bible as never before. Luther, Tyndale, Wesley would have loved to be alive today. This increased knowledge of the Bible can give us more knowledge of God, and more knowledge of God can deepen our love and relationship with God.

[Samie]

Bro Gibs;

You forgot to answer my question:

Where in Revelation or anywhere else in Scriptures that identifies the Book Of Life as the "the Book or Scroll that is sealed with Seven seals"? Beware lest you be found adding to or taking away from what are written in Revelation (see Rev 22:18, 19)

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Will anybody explain what looks like an inconsistency in the quote below?

Excerpt from "Facing Life's Record": (emphasis mine)

Quote:

“And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.” [Daniel 7:13, 14.] The coming of Christ here described is not his second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of days in Heaven to receive dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, which will be given him at the close of his work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not his second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days, in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God, to engage in the last acts of his ministration in behalf of man,—to perform the work of investigative Judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits. {GC88 479.3}

The above quote tells us the coming of Christ to the Ancient of Days was in 1844 to receive dominion, and glory, and a kingdom. It follows that in 1844, He received dominion, and glory, and a kingdom which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator.

Until NOW Christ is still our Mediator, and therefore the close of His work as Mediator is still in the future. It appears that Christ will be given in the future what He already received in the past.

In Christ,

Samie

[BobRyan]

It is a reference to Dan 7 and both the GC chapter and the Dan 7 chapter make it clear that the kingdom is not defined until the saints are determined. I.E who are the saints. Matt 7 says they can be known by their fruits. Once identified - that group makes up the kingdom of men given to Christ. Both sources show that the world ends at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

It is a reference to Dan 7 and both the GC chapter and the Dan 7 chapter make it clear that the kingdom is not defined until the saints are determined. I.E who are the saints. Matt 7 says they can be known by their fruits. Once identified - that group makes up the kingdom of men given to Christ. Both sources show that the world ends at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks, but I am not asking about the definition of the kingdom or who the saints are, Brother Bob.

[ClubV12]

I see a beautiful harmony in what transpired at the first ascension and what transpired in the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14, Jesus coming once again to the Father and moving into the Most Holy place.

In the process of sanctifying, annointing, the heavenly sanctuary upon Christs ascension (and following the acceptance of His sacrafice by the Father) He was given all power in heaven and earth.

In the process of continuing His work in the Most Holy place, 1844, He was also given a Kingdom. His work continues now, in the Most Holy place, earths history is about to wrap up. When it does, in due time, Christ will return to claim His Kingdom, set up a New Jerusalem (on the Mt. of Olives).

I won't even bother to comment on all this "scroll" business, it's a distraction. NOR do I make my comments for Samies satisfaction, but only to the readers of this thread who are sincerely interested in truth. NOT to those who wish to pursue an "argument" or a "debate". I want only to provide truth and let the Holy Spirit convict as to the "proof".

[Samie]

...

NOR do I make my comments for Samies satisfaction, but only to the readers of this thread who are sincerely interested in truth.

...

[Gibs]

Samie, you do not read ones post well as I posted the scripture that identifies the book of life when it is finally opened,

Re 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Then here we see that it was opened,

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[ClubV12]

2 Peter 3:16 (KJV)

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Ezekiel 33:18

"If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it."

Once saved, always saved is a doctrine of the devil.

No matter how many verses are posted, some people will not believe. False prophets and wolves in sheep clothing always offer what they claim are "proof texts". But there is no light in them.

[Samie]

Bro Gibs;

You seem to be using Rev 8:1 and Rev 20:12 to prove that the book sealed with 7 seals is the book of life. Sorry to say this, but it looks like a forced-fit, square peg in a round hole.

Scriptures say that only Christ is able to open the seven seals with which the book is sealed. When Christ took the book from the Father, the 7 seals were still intact, meaning, the book had not been opened yet. He then loosed each of the 7 seals until finally it was opened. see Rev 5:1 - 8:1. Take note that what transpired when the 6th seal was opened, are events related with the Second Coming. When the 7th seal is opened after the 2nd Coming, only then is the book opened. Therefore, this book is opened only once, after the 2nd Coming.

In Rev 20:12, mention is made of "books" opened and the opening of the book of life. The book of life contains the names of Adam & Eve and all their descendants which were not blotted out (Exo. 32:32, 33; Phil 4:3; Rev 3:5). While judgment is based on what were written in the "books", it appears that the same destiny awaits all whose names were not found written in the book of life - the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). On the other hand, those whose names remain in the book of life are entitled to enter the heavenly gates (Rev 21:27).

The big question is, if the book of life is the book sealed with 7 seals and opened only in Rev 20:12 after the millennium, when were the names of non-overcomers blotted out from there? If their names are still in the book of life when the Lord returns, they will be among those gathered by the angels for translation to heaven. Unless this is conveniently explained with Biblical basis, there is no reason for me to believe the book of life is the book sealed with 7 seals.

On the other hand, Scriptures say that judgment for a person comes when that person dies (Heb 9:27). Is the person an overcomer? If Yes, his name stays; otherwise, it is blotted out (Rev 3:5). The book of life is opened every now and then for deletion of names; and millions, nay billions, had been deleted. The book sealed with 7 seals is opened only once. Therefore, the book sealed with 7 seals cannot be the book of life.

In Christ,

Samie

[ClubV12]

In the false doctrine of once saved, always saved, there would be no need of a judgment at death. Judgment would be rendered during life, since the concept is all sin, past, present, future is forgiven already. Since no possibility of sin would exist for such a person, they could do whatever they want. Tempered only by their personal standards of conduct, biblical standards would be, at best, a guideline. This works well for many so called Christians today, "do your own thing". No one to answer to, no leadership that needs to be your guide, no church attendance required. No body of believers one has to connect with.

Sounds great! Very appealing to anyone who wants to ignore the law and live their own life, their own way.