Atonement - when?

[Samie]

Bro Gibs,

It is clear to all you CANNOT harmonize the INCONSISTENCY your position has with the plain statement of our Savior that while SEPARATE from Him, we can do NOTHING. Your mere insistence that no atonement is done in the outer court reflects you don't really seem to understand what you are saying. Where in Scriptures is Calvary the outer court of the heavenly sanctuary? Please don't read into Scriptures what you want them to mean, brother.

You keep on banking on Sister White's 1888 position despite knowing it had been replaced with her 1899 statement. She passed away believing that when Christ offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people, a statement which is in perfect harmony with the Pure Gospel the Savior wanted proclaimed to all the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

You preach OVERCOMING as part of your "true gospel"? That is commendable. But OVERCOMING while SEPARATE from Christ? That is what makes it false. But you're just a step away from the Pure Gospel, brother. OVERCOMING is only possible when we are ATTACHED to Christ Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13). And God ATTACHED us all to the body of His Son Who made a perfect atonement for all our sins on the cross (Eph 2:11-19; Rom 5:10,11; 2 Cor 5:18,19; Col 2:13, 14; Heb 10:17; Rev 1:5; etc.).

After God attached us to His Son, He made us alive together with Him (Eph 2:4-6), born again into a new hope through the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 1:3). Now that we are alive, we can believe, repent, decide to be baptized, and do the will of Him Who works IN us both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). We can now OVERCOME all evil with good (Rom 12:21).

As overcomers, we will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) where our names were written before the foundation of the world (Ps 139:16; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8). When Christ returns to reward every man according to his works (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), the overcomers will be rewarded with life eternal and will be with our Lord wherever He is; all others will suffer God's wrath, and finally, will be thrown into the lake of fire (John 14:1-3; Rom 2:5-8; Rev 20:15; 21:7, 27).

Come over this side of the fence with Sister White here with us, brother. Let us together proclaim the Pure Gospel so our Lord can soon come and claim us His own.

In Christ,

Samie

[skyblue888]

Samie, no offense, but the inconsistency

is in your head, not in Gib's.

The evidence is overwhelming that you

have failed the test simply because

you do not understand the typical

atonement in the earthly sanctuary,

the daily and the yearly atonement.

Therefore you cannot grasp the

antitype.

Thats all there is to it.

For once we understand type and antitype

all inconsistencies melt away, all apparent

contradictions disappear.

But as Gibs said, there is no point

going further into this discussion

with you personally since you have

made it crystal clear that even before

this discussion began your mind was

already made up and there was no turning

around no matter what evidence against your

position could be shown. Your position is

based on private a interpretation of a couple

of statements, which, taken by themselves,

without comparing them with the bulk of the

statements that are available on the topic,

can easily give the impression that Mrs. White

is contradicting herself on the atonement or

that your position has to be the correct one,

based on these lone statements.

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish

but know that your arguments here did not shake

in the least my belief that Christ did not begin

to atone proper until He began pleading the merits

of His shed blood in the sanctuary above for all

men but especially those who believe.

And that when the mission of the Gospel is

completed, at the end of the loud cry, He

will make the final atonement for His people

thus cleansing the sanctuary from all the sins

that had been sent there beforehand to judgment

and all these sins will be transfered upon Satan

the scapegoat who is to wander on this earth for

a thousand years.

Then probation will close and the people of God

will pass through the time of Jacob's trouble

to be translated without seeing death.

sky

[ClubV12]

Still feeding the troll Sky?

Samie has been over and over this with the leaders in his Conference for a long time running. Nothing has changed...

[Samie]

Still feeding the troll Sky?

Samie has been over and over this with the leaders in his Conference for a long time running. Nothing has changed...

Thanks for your kind words, Bro Club. I admit Samie is a troll, an ogre, a monster against those who oppose what Scriptures plainly say.

You can call me names. That does not affect me negatively, but it will surely reflect on your person, brother. And don't pretend you know what is transpiring here in our Conference, the North Philippine Union Conference, relative to my position. The more you are adding weight to your 'Titanic' personality.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Samie, no offense, but the inconsistency is in your head, not in Gib's.

The evidence is overwhelming that you have failed the test simply because you do not understand the typical atonement in the earthly sanctuary, the daily and the yearly atonement.

Therefore you cannot grasp the antitype.

Thats all there is to it.

For once we understand type and antitype all inconsistencies melt away, all apparent contradictions disappear.

[Samie]

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. One party may give all the guarantees he wants, but unless the OTHER party agrees, all the promises are null and void. That is why the atonement at the Cross cannot be mine in reality until I repent, confess, and accept it by faith and sign on to the covenant.

Between two human parties, yes. But not in the New Covenant with our God. What the Immortal has done can NEVER by any mortal be undone.

The effects of the perfect atonement made on the cross for the sins of the world can NEVER be undone by any human. That atonement forgave and cleansed us all from sin (Col 2:13; Rev 1:5), and because the sin that separates man from God (Isa 59:2) had been taken away (John 1;29), man was reconciled to God (Rom 5:10,11), ATTACHED to Christ and member of the family of God (Eph 2:11-19). Our being ATTACHED to Christ is God's work FOR man. All grace (Eph 2:4-6). Not an iota of human participation (Titus 3:4-6). God did this for Adam & Eve and all their descendants, with no one left out nor exempted.

Presbyterians partly believe this. John Calvin, knowing that many will be cast into the lake of fire, applied the above truth only to those selected few - the Elect - whom God predestinated (Eph 1:4) before the foundation of the world, to the exclusion of all others. These predestinated ones can NEVER lose their salvation. Calvin failed the test of Scriptures on two counts: one, he did not include all descendants of Adam & Eve in the Elect; and two, that not one of the Elect will land in the lake of fire.

Calvin did not perhaps then realize that Scriptures tell of BLOTTING oput of names from the book of life; and only overcomers will not be blotted out (Exo 32:32, 33; Rev 3:5). Blotting out signifies the name for blotting was initially written, otherwise, there is nothing to blot. Names of Adam & Eve and all their descendants were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world (Ps 139:15, 16; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8), but majority of those names had been, are being, and will be blotted out from the book of life, all because of REFUSAL to overcome.

It was the Great Reformer, Martin Luther, who propounded the Sola Fide basis for salvation at a time when the Catholic Church was selling indulgences that promised removal from purgatory and entry to heaven of souls for whom the indulgences were bought. While the Sola Fide principles is Biblical, it is the application of this principle that turns everything sour. Sola Fide adherents teach that a man gifted with faith has to believe first before he can be attached to Christ.

The biggest single dilemma in the brand of gospel many preachers preach today, is the belief that man, while still separate from Christ, is able to believe and repent so he can be attached to Christ. Though not one of these preachers is willing to admit, the gospel they teach directly goes against the plain pronouncement of our Savior - Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING (John 15:5). Sola Fide preachers were born and trained in the belief system that all of us descendants of Adam & Eve were born separate from Christ. And hence there must be a starting point in our lifetime where we were attached to Christ.

But Scriptures say otherwise. We were born ATTACHED to Christ!

In Christ,

Samie

(Next post: After the fall, Adam & Eve and all their descendants live under the terms of the New Covenant. This means, we descendants of Adam & Eve were born attached to the body of Christ!)

[Samie]

Quote:

NIV Acts 17:24-26 24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

45 years ago on the same date and the same day today - 09 Nov, Saturday - I was baptized into the SDA Church, a 3rd generation Adventist. My grandparents were among the first SDA's in our small town.

Did I choose to be born with SDA parents? No. I did not. None of us has the capability of choosing who our parents will be. Since my parents were SDA's, will they teach me doctrines of the Mormons? Of course, not. They taught me doctrines of our Church. Because I was taught SDA doctrine, did I learn Islam instead and worship on Friday? No. I learned our doctrines and became a Sabbath-keeper, a happy victim of natural circumstances.

But what if I was born with Baptist parents? Then, the term "SDA" in the paragraph above will be changed into "Baptist" and I would have ended up a Sunday-keeper! But whose fault since I was merely taught and so learned and practised Sunday-keeping? What if I died a Sunday-keeper because no SDA came?

Let's make matters a little complicated. What if I was born with illiterate parents in the hinterlands of Africa where no single Christian missionary ever came till I died? Is it my fault I did not come to know Christ as personal Savior and so was not able to accept Him? Will I then have my place among the goats, because as per gospel Christian preachers teach, only those who have accepted Christ as personal Savior were attached to Him and are His sheep? If this teaching is true, then woe unto me, I am numbered among the lost.

In the verses above, God gave me life; determined where I was to live and the period when. It was His choice for me to be born with illiterate parents in a place He foreknew no Christian missionary will ever come till I die. If the brand of gospel popularly preached today were true, then the Gracious, Merciful, Loving God (Exo 34:6,7; Ps 103:8) Who wanted all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of truth (1 Tim 2:3,4), is at fault why I ended up LOST.

Happily, the brand of gospel popularly preached today is false, otherwise, our God Who did everything for us through our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ, will be faulted for the eternal loss of souls. The perfect atonement made on the cross caused Adam & Eve and all their descendants to be forgiven and cleansed from sin (Matt 1:21; 26:28; 1 Tim 1:15; Col 2:13, 14; 2 Cor 5:18, 19; Rev 1:5), members of the family of God (Eph 2:11-19). Our being members in God's family was through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, which occurred on the cross, long before we were even born. We were born members of God's family, already attached to Christ. But how about those who lived and died before the cross?

Sin, whose wages is death (Rom 6:23), separates man from God (Isa 59:2). To pay for his sin, man - separated from God - has to die. Before Eve was created, God told Adam that he will die ON THE DAY he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate and sinned. That sin separated him from God. He has to die. But if Adam himself dies to pay for his own sin committed, he would have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves who died separate from Him. So God made a way for man not only to be able to pay for sin committed but at the same time have hope of life eternal. Adam & Eve 'died' that day as payment for sin committed, through the death of that animal whose skin God fashioned into the covering of the first couple, who yet lived on for a shot at life eternal. The death of that animal - and all subsequent animal sacrifices - pointed forward to the death on the cross of the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). No wonder, Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), without Whose death, all animal sacrifices would have been pointless.

On the cross, God fashioned Jews and Gentiles - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - into the body of His Son,creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity His Body. That attachment of humanity with all its sin to Christ was aptly described by the prophet (Isa 53:6). When the Head died His body died likewise (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Gal 2:20), and all sins were paid for, forgiven (Col 2:`13, 14). The blood spilled washed us clean from sin (Rev 1:5). A perfect atonement is completed. When Christ the Head resurrected, God resurrected us - His Body - together with Him (Eph 2:4-6), born again into a living hope (1 Pet 1:3), under the terms of the New Covenant (Heb 10:16, 17).

Yes, it was on the cross that God attached us to His Son, long before we were born. We were all born already attached to the body of Christ.

Happy Sabbath, Everyone!

In Christ,

Samie

(next post: the forgotten Message of Reconciliation...)

[Guest arnie]

ClubV12,

Do you think your name has come up yet? I mean in the investigative judgement. Just something to think about.

[Gibs]

Here is what EGW was shown Br. Jackson,

"I was also shown a sanctuary upon the earth containing two apartments. It resembled the one in heaven, and I was told that it was a figure of the heavenly. The furniture of the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary was like that in the first apartment of the heavenly. The veil was lifted, and I looked into the holy of holies and saw that the furniture was the same as in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. The priest ministered in both apartments of the earthly. He went daily into the first apartment, but entered the most holy only once a year, to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly sanctuary. The priests entered into the earthly with the blood of an animal as an offering for sin. Christ entered into the heavenly sanctuary by the offering of His own blood. The earthly priests were removed by death; therefore they could not continue long; but Jesus was a priest forever. Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come. And in the wisdom of God the particulars of this work were given us that we might, by looking to them, understand the work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary. {EW 252.2}

As Jesus died on Calvary, He cried, "It is finished," and the veil of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom. This was to show that the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with the priests in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be offered by Himself in the heavenly sanctuary. As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary. {EW 253.1}

The truth rings out loud and clear!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest arnie]

The atonement means God is reviewing the records of the living in the Most Holy according to Adventism. Does ANYONE wonder if their name has come up already? Because, I think the Church is not clear on this. I know at one time, it was believed that we would NOT KNOW when our record is reviewed.

[Gibs]

Yes for sure arnie the Sanctuary is being cleansed and our names can come up at any time. We are not to know the day and hour of this or His coming.

It is always best is to keep the Spiritual house clean, a must.

The words of Jesus,

Lu 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Lu 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Lu 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[Gibs]

I happen to run across this council from EGW and it is so good I could not resist posting it here as it is relevant to this thread,

Ps 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Our Saviour is in the sanctuary pleading in our behalf. He is our interceding High Priest, making an atoning sacrifice for us, pleading in our behalf the efficacy of His blood.--Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 370. {7ABC 477.2}

Every one who will break from the slavery and service of Satan, and will stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Immanuel, will be kept by Christ's intercessions. Christ, as our Mediator, at the right hand of the Father, ever keeps us in view, for it is as necessary that He should keep us by His intercessions as that He should redeem us with His blood. If He lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. Those purchased by His blood, He now keeps by His intercession.-- Manuscript 73, 1893. {7ABC 477.3}

Thank God that He who spilled His blood for us, lives to plead it, lives to make intercession for every soul who receives Him. . . . We need to keep ever before us the efficacy of the blood of Jesus. That life-cleansing, life-sustaining blood, appropriated by living faith, is our hope. We need to grow in appreciation of its inestimable value, for it speaks for us only as we by faith claim its virtue, keeping the conscience clean and at peace with God. {7ABC 477.4}

This is represented as the pardoning blood, inseparably connected with the resurrection and life of our Redeemer, illustrated by the ever-flowing stream that proceeds from the throne of God, the water of the river of life.--Letter 87, 1894. {7ABC 477.5}

Christ died to make an atoning sacrifice for our sins. At the father's right hand He is interceding for us as our High Priest. By the sacrifice of His life He purchased redemption for us. His atonement is effectual for every one who will humble himself, and receive Christ as his example in all things. If the Saviour had not given His life as a propitiation for our sins, the whole human family would have perished. They would have had no right to heaven. It is through His intercession that we, through faith, repentance, and conversion, are enabled to become partakers of the divine nature, and thus escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.--Manuscript 29, 1906. {7ABC 477.6}

Wonderful, wonderful way thou our God and Saviour has made, How can we not love you with all our hearts and souls?

All praise, worship and honor be to thee!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

arnie, I have never seen anything to indicate the Church is divided on how the judgment works as to the record review. The Spirit of Prophecy is clear on this issue, we won't know. We won't even know when it has passed from the dead to the living.

Some may say this is an issue, they are simply wrong, nothing new there. This issue is well defined and completely clear. Those who say otherwise are preaching a false doctrine, period.

Not only us, Lucifer himself won't know WHEN the judgment has been completed. Even after the Saints are sealed, Daniel 12:1 is fulfilled, the judgment is over, the evil doer will STILL be attempting to make the Saints sin and fall. He never gives up...

[skyblue888]

It seems that it has never been made clear

as to when the judgment of the dead will pass

on to that of the living. It will pass on to

the living when the mission of the Gospel is

completed. This is made crystal clear in the

parable of the net and of the wheat and the

tares.

The judgment of the living is only for those

who make it to the time of the great final

test at the end of the loud cry. Only those

who pass this great final test (death decree)

can successfully pass the judgment of the

living and receive the final seal before

they enter the time of Jacob's trouble.

If we are professing to be a follower of Christ

and die before that time our names come up in

the judgment of the dead. The judgment of the

dead is going on as we speak and will continue

until the judgment of the living at the end of

the loud cry.

Commenting upon the parable of the net, Mrs.

White writes, "The casting of

the net is the preaching of the Gospel. This

gathers both good and evil into the church.

When the mission of the Gospel is completed,

the judgment will accomplish the work of

separation." C.O.L.122.

This can only be the judgment of the living.

As to the parable of the wheat and the tares,

she writes,

"The wheat and the tares grow

together until the harvest. The good and the

bad fish are together drawn ashore for a final

separation. Again, these parables teach that

there is to be no probation after the judgment.

When the work of the Gospel is completed, there

immediately follows the separation between the

good and the evil, and the destiny of each

class is forever fixed." C.O.L.123.

This can only be the judgment of the living

which takes place at the end of the loud

cry when the mission of the Gospel is completed.

The parable of the wedding garment teaches the

same thing. Matt.22:11 says that at the end

of the third call of the parable which is at

the end of the loud cry, the king comes in

to examine the guests. This is the judgment

of the living proper at the time of the great

final test.

The judgment of the living could have taken

place as early as shortly after Jesus passed

from the Holy to the Most Holy place if the

advent people had proclaimed the third angel's

message in the power of the Holy Spirit. The

work would have been finished, the judgment of

the living would have taken place just before

the close of probation and the time of Jacob's

trouble. (G.C.457-458)

sky

[ClubV12]

Thats accurate Sky (doesn't mean were going to be all buddy buddy now, but it's accurate).

No earlier than about 1856 or so, as I make it from my study. This is based primarily on the prophecies of Daniel and what I feel is their "almost" fulfillment. ONE verse left, 11:45. Even THAT verse could have been fulfilled anytime around the time frame of the 1850's. Any time after that ('56 or so) Jesus could have, would have, returned had His Church been ready to receive Him.

[skyblue888]

According to Vol.1 of the Testimonies

the church fell into the Laodicean

condition around 1855.

In 1844 the proclamation of the third angel's

message in demonstration of the Spirit and

power of God would have completed the work

of the Gospel in a couple of years or so.

You say that your study of Daniel 11 has led

you to believe that the only verse left is

25. Verses 41-44 describe events to take

place during the loud cry and at the end of

the loud cry. So these verses have not yet

been fulfilled. During the loud cry many from

the Catholic church and the so-called Protestant

churches will escape from the beast and its image.

Last part of verse 45 will not be fulfilled until

the time of the fifth plague when the "waters"

upon which the king of the north sits shall be

dried up when they realized that they have been

deceived. Then they will turn upon him and there

will be none to help him. This is the sixth plague

also represented by the destroying angel of Ezekiel

9, evil men with slaughtering weapons.

sky

[ClubV12]

Well, I knew we would part ways big time on our views over Daniel 11.

As to 1856 or so, that is when I see Daniel being fulfilled up to verse 44. It's certainly possible 40-44 could have been fulfilled even earlier, which then, would have allowed for a return in the 1840's. But that didn't happen, until the Crimean war in 1853-1856.

One very real army left to fulfill verse 45. Who ever they are, their coming into Israel and setting up HQ. Israel won't sit back and take that lightly, it means war, big time war. Jerusalem will burn, it will be conquered. Somebody is going to set up HQ, between the mountain and the sea (Mt. Olives I make it). Doesn't really mean anything, it's a just a "way mark", a sign. Time to sell the house, get out of the city, prepare seriously for the coming storm. This is a "Jerusalem" surrounded by armies warning, flee, NOW.

I think the primary differences we have on Daniel 11 is you see a spiritual application (as many do) and I see a very real fulfillment. Real armies, real battles, real generals, real people do real stuff with real armies. Daniel 11 starts out very real, pinpointing actual historical events that can be traced. Including the coming of the Messiah, which really happened. So we are following along this "unfolding of historic events" and then all of a sudden, someone says, "OK, so right here, at verse such and such, it's not longer real, now we switch to spiritual." Who made up THAT rule? There is no such rule! It's either spiritual, entirely, or it's real, entirely.

Anyway, thats my view, and William Miller concurs! :)

[ClubV12]

If any part of Daniel 11 is fulfilled AFTER probation closes, which is when the plagues come, the prophecy becomes meaningless in terms of a salvation message or as a warning message. Everyones fate is already decided, Daniels prophecy becomes irrelevant.

[skyblue888]

The events portrayed in Daniel 11:40-45

concern the time of the end. There are

many discordant voices today within

Adventism and outside Adventism offering

different interpreations of these verses.

We must not be discouraged by this for

the Lord has promised that

"Amid the confusing cries

will be bore a special testimony, a special

message of truth appropriate for this time,

which message is to be received, belived,

and acted upon. It is the truth that is

efficacious, not fanciful ideas."

E.G. White, Bible Commentary, vol.7,984.

What is taking place in the Middle East

today, the wars and the rumors of wars,

have all been predicted by Jesus. But

these wars and rumors of wars have no

direct bearing whatsoever on the events

foretold in Daniel 11:40-45, as we shall

see.

Today we understand that in 1798 atheism

(the spiritual king of the south) pushed

at the papacy (the spiritual king of the

north). During the French Revolution there

was a serious backlash against established

religion. The winds shifted. The Catholic

church (king of the north) was no longer

wielding the power of the State. Instead

atheism (king of the south in France)

wielded the power of the State for the

destruction of organized religion altogether.

The pope was even taken into captivity under

Napoleon. This was the deadly wound.

The Catholic Church lost her temporal

supremacy. Since then atheism (in the form

of humanism, secularism, science falsely

so-called under the name of the theory of

evolution, the goddess of reason and of

philosophy and psychology) has been taking

the ascendancy, calling for the annihilation

of religion (the king of the north).

Atheists today are having a hay day. They can

say pretty much whatever they want against

the established religion. The king of the

north is tolerant because it is powerless.

(G.C.565) Champions for the "king of the

south" today are men like Bill Maher, George

Carlin, Richard Dawkins, Jim Jefferies, just

to mention these. They can be found on YouTube

and it is pretty amazing the things they are

saying about and against religion. Some of it

(a lot actually) is true and very funny at

times but a lot of it is sheer blasphemy.

The only way for the king of the north

(religion) to regain its lost supremacy

and to subdue the king of the south

(atheists), church and state will have

to unite and the church will again wield

the power of the state to bring all the

atheists and dissidents into subjection.

Daniel 11:40 predicts that the king of

the north will come against atheism (king

of the south) like a whirlwind. Once again

the beast (king of the north) will rule the

world for a short time for the time will come

when those who support the king of the north

will withdraw their support and they will

turn against him again as it happened at the

time of the French Revolution except that this

time it will be on a much larger scale. The

whole world will be involved. Then there will

be none to help him. Daniel 11:45; Rev.17:15-16.

[skyblue888]

We cannot use the geographical method

of interpretation to identify the

people symbolized by the countries

mentioned between verses 41 and 43

of Daniel 40. The spiritual method is

to be used. Here is why. Geographically,

in the old testament Egypt was the king

of the south and Babylon was the king of

the north and Israel was the "glorious

land." But in the "time of the end"

the "king of the south" in Daniel 11:40

is no longer the literal country of Egypt

but "spiritual Egypt" which is, "Atheistic

France." Great Controversy, 269. And the

"king of the north" in 1798 was not the

literal country of Babylon, as we all know,

but Papal Rome.

"Edom" was a descendant of Esau. The Edomites

have long vanished from the face of the earth.

And "Moab" and "Ammon" were the two sons that

Lot's daughters bore to him. The Moabites and

Ammonites have also vanished from the face of

the earth. These tribes are a type of the

people in these last days. They had a physical

background with Ancient Israel. Who today have

a physical background with Modern Israel? The

Catholics and the various so-called protestant

churches.

The other nations (Egypt, Lybia, Ethiopia) had

no direct connection with physical Israel.

These represent the dark corners of the earth.

In verse 44 we read that "tidings

from the east and out of the north shall trouble

the king of the north." This is speaking

of events taking place during the loud cry. Since

many during the loud cry will escape the king of

the north by accepting the loud cry message, the

king of the north, will become furious and "with

great fury" bring upon those who refuse to bow

down to his supremacy the death decree. We also

know that before the death decree is passed many

will suffer for their faith and be put to sleep.

(Dan.11:43) Satan has planted the tabernacles

of his palaces between the seas (the human

worshiper) and God (the glorious holy mountain).

Daniel 11:45.

The multitudes of this earth will then be giving

their support to the beast. "Satan has planted

his satanic throne between the human worshiper

and the divine Father." Manuscript Releases, vol.7,

215. "In this world he has set up a kingdom of

darkness, of which he, the leader in guilt, is

prince. He desired to usurp the throne of God.

Failing in this, he has worked in darkness,

in crookedness, in deception, to usurp his place

in the hearts of men. He has set up his throne

between God (the glorious holy mountain) and man

(the seas) to appropriate the adoration that

belongs to God alone." E.G. White, 6 B.C.1119;

Rev.17:15.

[skyblue888]

In the same verse 45 of Daniel 11 we

read that the time will come, and that

will be at the time of the fifth plague,

when "he shall come to his

end, and none shall help him."

The multitudes of this earth who had been

supporting the king of the north will

suddenly withdraw their support and will

turn against him with the fury of demons

and they will bring him down to the pit.

This event is also known as the drying up

of the River Euphrates which is the sixth

plague. Rev.16:12; 17:16; The Great

Controversy, 635-636; 655-656.

"He shall enter also into the

glorioius land." Dan.11:41. The "glorious land"

in the Old Testament was Jerusalem:

"The kings of the earth, and

all the inhabitants of the world, would not

have believed that the adversary and the enemy

should have entered into the gates of

Jerusalem." Lamentatons 4:12.

This literally happened. But these words

were written more for us than for Ancient

Israel.

"The prophets of God spoke

less for their own time than for the ages

to come, and especially for the generation

that would live amid the last scenes of

this earth's history." Signs of

the Times, vol.3, 445.

This means that today, the adversary, the

enemy of all righteousness will, in a

very subtle manner, enter into the

"glorious land" where "spiritual Irsrael"

is. Where is the "glorious land" today?

Since 1844 it has been within the confines

of the Seventh-day Adventist Movement. We

know that the enemy entered into the gates

of Jerusalem of old and that he planted his

throne there between the human worshiper and

God. Thus we read,

"The people whom God had called to be the

pillar and ground of the truth had become

the representatives of Satan. They were

doing the work he desired them to do, taking

a course to misrepresent the character of

God, and cause the world to look upon Him

as a tyrant." Desire of Ages,36.

It is written that "All

these things happened for examples, and

they are written for our admonition, upon

whom the ends of the ages are come."

1 Cor.10:11.

Hence we read, "The TRIALS

of the children of Israel, and their

ATTITUDE just before the FIRST COMING of

Christ, have been presented before me again

and again to ILLUTSTRATE the POSITION of

the people of God in their experience before

the SECOND COMING of Christ--how the enemy

sought every occasion to take CONTROL

THE MINDS of the Jews, and today he is

seeking to BLIND THE MINDS of God's

servants, that they may not be able

to discern the PRECIOUS TRUTH."

1 S.M.406.

[skyblue888]

When it comes to prophecy, for the last

hundred and sixty-nine years, our emphasis

has always been on what is happening outside

our own borders at the expense of what prophecy

might have to say about what is to take place

within our own ranks. For example, how many of

us realize that the parable of Matt.22 is a

prophecy delineating events to take place

within Adventism between 1844 and the close

of probation and even beyond? I understand

that when Jesus spoke this parable/prophecy

He was looking down the ages with His eyes

fixed upon our time! He spoke that parable/

prophecy more for us than for the Jews.

"The Lord has declared that

the history of the past shall be rehearsed

as we enter upon the closing work."

2 S.M.390.

Wouldn't it be important, even more important,

that we take the time to carefully study this

prophecy in order to know where we are in the

unrolling of the prophetic scroll? I am not

saying that the other prophecies are not

important. They are. What I am saying is

that if we fail to pay attention to the

prophecies concerning ourselves as a people,

is there not the danger that "

we shall not recognize the manifestations of

the Holy Spirit in the latter rain?"

Is there not the danger that "

it might be falling on hearts all around us

but we shall not discern or receive it?"

T.M. 507.

In other words, that we shall not be able to discern the precious truth? (1 S.M.406)

[Gibs]

Yes, Sky I am a firm believer that the latter rain is falling now.

There is a great awakening among the few.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I don't think were there yet Gibs. Nor do I think we are in the shaking proper as yet. I know this: Samie, Sky, Gibs and myself have widely different views on important issues. EACH of us THINK we have it right! Which can only mean, SOMEONE is terribly deceived. Let the finger pointing continue...

I think these events will be without question, quite pronounced and clear when they occur. Just my opinion on that. Obviously the tares won't see it. WHO are the tares? Fact is, we don't know. If you think your not, maybe you are! If you think you see the later rain or the shaking right now, maybe you are being deceived!

So HOW come we have so many different interpretations on Daniel? Because the Church threw out Millers rules of interpretation, which were authorized and highly spoken of by Ellen White. Once we abandoned an agreed upon set of rules for interpretation, it's pretty much been every man for himself. There has been no consistent approach within the Church since the 1919 bible conference, when "new rules" were introduced.

I see that happening AGAIN right now with the NAD's proposed "new rules" of interpretation. It's like giving the construction crew four different sets of blue prints and expecting they will all work together to build the same exact thing. Never happen! No rules, mixed rules, confusion over the rules, equals a Babylon of interpretation. Which is why the Church has no consistency on Daniel 11.

I follow Millers rules, endorsed by the prophet. Daniel 11 is literal, all the way to verse 45.

[skyblue888]

If we are to follow the prophet's rule

we have no choice but to follow the

spiritual method of interpretation

for Daniel 11:40-45 as well as for

the book of Revelation.

In the book The Great Controversy,

p.269 Mrs. White used the spiritual

method to identify who the king of

the south is in 1798 and who the

king of the north is at that time.

She identified the spiritual king of

the south as being Atheism in France

otherwise called "spiritual Egypt."

And she identifies Papal Rome as

the king of the north otherwise

called spiritual Babylon, the Beast

of Rev.13:1-10.

To be consistent, we must use the same

method for verses 41 to 45.

And this is what I did.

Uriah Smith is mostly correct in his

interpretation of Daniel except that

he used the geographical method for

Daniel 11:40-45 and that explains

why he was unable to correctly identify

who the king of the south was in 1798.

But Mrs. White did not make that

mistake as the chapter on The

French Revolution in The Great

Controversy clearly shows.

sky