Atonement - when?

[skyblue888]

And, when studying chapter 17 of

Revelation in regard to the seven

heads, five have fallen, one is,

and one is yet to come, and there

is also the eighth, taking 1798

as the point of reference, we

have:

5 have fallen

1. Babylon (the head of gold of Daniel 2)

2. Medo-Persia.

3. Greece.

4. Pagan Rome fell in A.D.476.

5. Papal Rome fell in 1798.

6. Atheism is the one that is after 1798 and it has been pushing at the king of the north ever since.

7. Apostate Protestantism is the one yet

to come with the union of church and state;

it will then have a kingdom for a short

time with the beast.

8. The papacy which was before 1798, is not

after 1798, and is again when her wound is

healed with the help of Apostate Protestanstism

and shall subdue the king of the south (atheism).

And not only will it subdue atheism but it shall

enter the "glorious land" (seventh-day adventism)

and subdue many of them who profess the believe

present truth.

So we see that the spiritual method used by

Mrs. White in the chapter, The French Revolution,

is the correct one.

sky

[ClubV12]

Your proposed methodology of interpretation for Daniel 11 is in direct violation of Millers rules. I don't believe there is in any inconsistency between what Ellen White says concerning Daniel 11 and Millers rules, when properly understood.

Since Daniel 11 is OBVIOUSLY literal in the early parts, where geography, people, nations, kings CAN be identified then that is what you must do. What you propose is that when it comes to the parts where you can't be sure of the geography or nations, you derail into a spiritual intepretation. Changing horses in mid stream. Properly understood Sister White and Daniel 11 as literal are in perfect harmony.

Revelation, spiritually interpreted, is in harmony with Millers rules. A woman, riding a beast, from the sea, or whatever, must be spiritually interpreted.

But a King, coming from the South is just exactly that. A real King, really coming from the South. Not being able to determine WHO the King might be, does not authorize a switch to a spiritual application without violating Father Millers rules.

Now either Miller had it wrong, or Ellen Whites was wrong to endorse his methodology.

[Gibs]

Charles Wheeling works on this a lot and does have some very good points. For me he is not all right and none are that I've read or heard.

I find it is pretty straight out and really easy to know and understand in surety but would take a full hour presentation to lay it out if all even could come close to sitting that long and keeping up the attention and understanding span.

I don't care to attempt it or to work for hours to get it up in print and then put it out in at least six parts and that would be about as useless as the full hour presentation.

Three 20 minute presentations with a rest period between might work but 4 15 minute ones would be better and then it would have to be fast moving and no question and answer time which is needed should be added to the 15 minute ones.

Attention spans have become very short anymore and the mind cannot absorb more the cheeks in the britches can stand.

God will guide our minds if we will let him,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Once you take a verse and force it to become symbolic, spiritualize it, it can be anything anybody wants it to be.

THIS is why we have multiple definitions regarding Daniel 11. Some say this, others that, each supporting their position with SOP quotes. It's madness.

No symbolic applications can be agreed upon because they don't fit! They don't fit Millers divinely endorsed rules, they don't logic and reason. It's as simple as that, everyone is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Been that way for a hundred years, won't change until you apply Millers rules. Other wise, it's every man for himself, it's Babylon.

Millers rules? Now we have NAD presenting NEW RULES for interpretaion. All were doing is digging a deeper hole.

[Samie]

I don't think were there yet Gibs. Nor do I think we are in the shaking proper as yet. I know this: Samie, Sky, Gibs and myself have widely different views on important issues. EACH of us THINK we have it right! Which can only mean, SOMEONE is terribly deceived. Let the finger pointing continue...

On travel...

I suggest if the finger pointing has to continue, it should point in the direction our Great Master Teacher wanted. For a review of related discussions, here's the Last Post on Daniel 11 thread. Brothers Club, sky, Gibs and others could choose to add to that thread. For the record, the number of views when I last posted in that thread was less than 35,000. It had now ballooned to more than 187,500.

Back to the Atonement issue...

[Gibs]

The finger pointing is out as far as I am concerned. To post ones views is the freedom God has given us and I want it and have no design to take it from any other.

What we all need and obviously is not among us is His Spirit of truth that guides into all truth. Among those who do I firmly believe there will be Unity and Harmony not only with God but among them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

As pointed out in an earlier post, preachers of the brand of gospel popularly preached today, were born and trained in a belief system that teaches people are born separate from Christ. To be attached, these preachers teach that people need to exercise his gift of faith. However, Scriptures make clear that man has no part in his attachment to Christ, because Christ Himself said that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING, and NOTHING obviously includes man's EXERCISE of faith. To get away from this dilemma, man's exercise of faith is not considered by these preachers as man's participation in the process of salvation. Amusing, isn't it? To think that they also teach that if man refuses to believe, then he cannot be attached. Refusal to exercise is man's own; exercising his faith is NOT his participation. Real funny.

Adding to the fun is the ever increasing number of religious groups or denominations each one telling her members theirs is the true Church. One estimate placed the count around 41,000.

Quote:

"The figures on Christian movements in this report were commissioned by the Pew Forum from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass. CSGC researchers generated their estimates based in large part on figures provided by Christian denominations and organizations around the world. CSGC has obtained denominational membership information from about 41,000 organizations worldwide." - Methodology for Estimating Christian Movements, "Global Christianity: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World's Christian Population", The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, December 19, 2011.

Scriptures explicitly say that we - Adam & Eve and all of us their descendants - were reconciled to God through the death of Christ (Rom 5:10, 11). He already attached us to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). We are one Body under one Head, Christ, and that Body is His Church (Eph 5:23). Sadly, when leaders tell their parishioners their group is the true church, then things don't come out right. Since their group is the only true church, then their church is the Body of Christ and only their members comprise that Body. The reconciling to Himself that God did for us all, we cannot apply to our fellow members in this one single Body of Christ we all belong, simply because we don't consider them as such since they are not members of our church. The message of reconciliation easily lost sight of and forgotten.

Quote:

NIV 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

It is the world, repeat, the world - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - that God reconciled to Himself through Christ. Yes, the world. You and me, and they. Not just US. We are ONE big family.

If you are a father with 12 sons, and each of the 12 started squabbling among themselves, each telling his other brethren he is the only son to the exclusion of all others, how would you as a father feel? Now consider what our Father in heaven feels for the hoopla that occurs in each of the 41,000 Christian groups!

People of God, wake up. Preach the Pure Gospel. Preach the message of reconciliation.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

The finger pointing is out as far as I am concerned. To post ones views is the freedom God has given us and I want it and have no design to take it from any other.

What we all need and obviously is not among us is His Spirit of truth that guides into all truth. Among those who do I firmly believe there will be Unity and Harmony not only with God but among them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Samie, Daniel 11: is not an easy one and a very extreme few even hold a view.

Now on whether Sky, I or ClubV12 are correct on the subject of this thread we will one day see.

It is fruitless for the four us to try and discuss it further with you or you with us.

I suggest it be dropped unless Gerry the author of the thread wants to lead it away, that is his to do if he wants, we should not.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest arnie]

Hi Gibs, I looked in the Bible for verses on the judgement. I couldn't find anything called an investigative judgement, but I did run across a few verses of hope; Dt 31:6, . .He will never leave you nor forsake you. .Joshua 1:5, I will never leave you or forsake you. .Hebrews 13: 5 "never will I forsake you". I just have to believe from what I've read, that as long as we seek out Jesus, that He would not forsake us even on our worst days.

Arnie

[Guest arnie]

Hi Gibs, I found another promise, Mathew 28:20 "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always,even to the end of the world". Amen!

[Gibs]

Yes, Arnie,

What goes with the promise of Matt 28:20 I think are the following preceding from John,

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Then I really like this one, it reveals so much and is a promise!

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Ah yes, even unto the end!

Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Such a wonderful promise that when He the Comforter dwells in us He guides into ALL Truth and will show you things to come! Wow! Joh 16:13 above.

And here is a verse that an investigative judgment will be done,

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Hi Gibs, I looked in the Bible for verses on the judgement. I couldn't find anything called an investigative judgement, but I did run across a few verses of hope; Dt 31:6, . .He will never leave you nor forsake you. .Joshua 1:5, I will never leave you or forsake you. .Hebrews 13: 5 "never will I forsake you". I just have to believe from what I've read, that as long as we seek out Jesus, that He would not forsake us even on our worst days.

Arnie

Then I suggest you look at other Bible versions specially the NASB, NRSV, and others and search for the word "investigation". This will open new vistas of truth for anyone who wants to know about the investigative judgment.

[Gerr]

"Choose you this day whom you will serve..."

"Whosoever will..."

"Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man opens......"

"You must be born again..."

What is reconciliation? TWO parties coming to an amicable agreement.

Does God have a true church on earth? Or will anyone of the 41,000 do?

[skyblue888]

We should all know that Daniel 11:40 refers

to the beginning of the time of the end

when the papacy (king of the north) received

a deadly wound at the hand of the Atheism

in France (king of the south)"spiritually"

Egypt.

This is not a private interpretation as the

following commentary from Mrs. White clearly

shows:

"The period when the two witnesses (Scriptures

of the Old and New Testaments) were to prophesy

clothed in sackcloth, ended in 1798. As they were

approaching the termination of their work in

obscurity, war was to be made upon them by the

power represented as 'the beast that ascendeth out

of the bottomless pit.' In many of the nations of

Europe the powers that ruled in church and state had

for centuries been controlled by Satan through the

medium of the papacy. But here is brought to view a

new manifestation of satanic power.

It had been Rome's policy, under a profession of

reverence for the Bible, to keep it locked up in

an unknown tongue and hidden away from the people.

Under her rule the witnesses prophesied clothed in

sackcloth.' But another power--the beast from the

bottomless pit--was to arise to make open, avowed

war upon the word of God.

'The great city' in whose streets the witnesses are

slain, and where their dead bodies lie, is "spiritually"

Egypt. Of all nations presented in Bible history, Egypt

most boldly denied the existence of the living God and

resisted His commands. No monarch ever ventured upon

more open and highhanded rebellion against the authority

of Heaven than did the king of Egypt. When the message

was brought him by Moses, in the name of the Lord, Pharaoh

proudly answered: 'Who is Jehovah, that I should hearken

unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not Jehovah, and

moreover I will not let Israel go.' Exodus 5:2, A.R.V.

This is atheism, and the nation represented by Egypt would

give voice to a similar denial of the claims of the living

God and would manifest a like spirit of unbelief and

defiance. 'The great city' is also compared, 'spiritually,'

to Sodom. The corruption of Sodom in breaking the law of

God was especially manifested in licentiousness. And this

sin was also to be a pre-eminent characteristic of the

nation that should fulfill the specifications of this scripture.

According to the words of the prophet, then, a little before

the year 1798 some power of satanic origin and character would

rise to make war upon the Bible. And in the land where the

testimony of God's two witnesses should thus be silenced,

there would be manifest the atheism of the Pharaoh and the

licentiousness of Sodom.

This prophecy has received a most exact and striking

fulfillment in the history of France. During the

Revolution, in 1793, 'the world for the first time

heard an assembly of men, born and educated in

civilization, and assuming the right to govern one

of the finest of the European nations, uplift their

united voice to deny the most solemn truth which man's

soul receives, and renounce unanimously the belief and

worship of a Deity.'--Sir Walter Scott, Life of Napoleon,

vol. 1, ch. 17.

"France is the only nation in the world concerning which

the authentic record survives, that as a nation she

lifted her hand in open rebellion against the Author of

the universe. Plenty of blasphemers, plenty of infidels,

there have been, and still continue to be, in England,

Germany, Spain, and elsewhere; but France stands apart

in the world's history as the single state which, by

the decree of her Legislative Assembly, pronounced that

there was no God, and of which the entire population of

the capital, and a vast majority elsewhere, women as well

as men, danced and sang with joy in accepting the

announcement."--Blackwood's Magazine, November, 1870.

So the above makes it crystal clear that France was

"spiritually" Egypt or the spiritual king of the south

in 1798 inflicting a wound to the papal power, the king

of the north.

sky

[ClubV12]

Ancient history, been there done that. We are now at the doorstep of verse 45.

Real people, with real guns, coming into the glorius land, Israel, and setting up a real HQ.

Note that Daniel 12:1 FOLLOWS verse 45 as the HISTORY of world events is unfolding. To place events future or historic events in Daniel 11 AFTER chapter 12:1 is putting the cart before the horse.

Follow the flow, it is consistent, it is logical, it is the "Headlines" of history past and future to come. In exacting order of events.

Thus, it is ludicrous to suggest ANY verse in Chapter 11 will take place AFTER 12:1.

[skyblue888]

If we have already been there and done that

we will be consistent and continue to use

the spiritual method of intepretation for

verses 41-45.

We have just seen that Mrs. White did not

use the geographical method to identify

the king of the south in 1798.

Mrs. White identified Atheism in France

as the king of the south in 1798. And,

consistently we know that the spiritual

king of the north in 1798 was the papacy.

More evidence that the spiritual and not

the geographical method is the correct

one to use is verse 41:

"He shall enter also into the glorious

land, and many countries shall be

overthrown, but these shall escape out

of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and

the chief of the children of Ammon."

Now if we insist on using the geographical

method we have a serious problem because

neither the Edomites nor the Ammonites

or Moabites can be located in the Middle East

today for they have long vanished from the face

of the earth.

These cannot be found as countries in the

Middle East today. But if we use the

spiritual method as Mrs. White did for

verse 40, we will have no problem

understanding that Edom, Ammon, and Moab

are a type of the Catholics and Protestants

who have somewhat of a spiritual connection

with "the glorious land" of today, namely,

Adventism.

"Tidings out the east and out of the north

shall trouble him (the king of the north)"

verse 44.

In order words, during the loud cry many

in the Catholic Church and in the Protestant

churches will receive the last message of

mercy and they will escape out of the hand

of the king of the north to join the ranks

of God's faithful people.

It is also said in verse 41 that the king of

the north shall enter the glorious land.

In the Old Testament the "glorious land" was

Jerusalem or Israel. In these last days, after

1798 the "glorious land" is Modern Israel,

otherwise known as Adventism. This is where

the oracles of God are to be found. It is to

these people that the Lord has entrusted

the special truths for our time. But sadly

the enemy will enter into the gates of modern

Jerusalem and deceive many who profess to

beleive present truth.

And when we come to vese 45 we are told that for

a time the king of the north will rule the world

and yet he will come to his end and there will be

none to help. We all know that there will be a

short time when all the world will worship the

king of the north, the papacy, but after the close

of probation, at the time of the fifth plague,

the multitudes will finally realize that they

have been deceived and they will no longer

support the king of the north. In fact they will

turn upon him and destroy him as described in

the sixth plague. This is the drying up of the

waters upon which the king of the north sat

upon. Then there will be none to help him.

See G.C.635-536; 655-656.

sky

[ClubV12]

France, a real country. A real battle ensued. The very real Pope, taken captive. While you may search for a spiritual applications, you cannot ignore the real people involved in the real conflict. This has been what Daniel is doing since verse 1.

And that continues through verse 45. You may say so "Roman power" or "beast" setups HQ in Israel, or who ever you like. But you must identify WHO the actual and very real army is that is going to come in, lay waste to Jerusalem and conquer that city.

[ClubV12]

Verses 40-44 were fulfilled. We know who the players were. France, Egypt, Turkey, Napolean. Armies taken captivity, surrender, victory, all are present. The Crimean War is prophesied in verse 44, that too came to pass. Real ships, real guns.

Now apply whatever spiritual application you desire to these "Headlines" of history. Verse 45 will be fulfilled by some military force. The Jews will not allow a conquering power to come in, there WILL be a fight. We know who looses, the Jews, Jerusalem will burn. What we DON'T KNOW is who this conquering army will be.

Will it be NATO responding to an invasion/war on Israel by some Islamic power or combination of Islamic powers? Or will NATO be forced to ignore whoever comes into Jerusalem because they are to busy fighting a world war on to many fronts already? Leaving no choice but to abandon Israel.

Who are the players CNN and Fox will be listing in their "Headlines" of the future as it concerns the "glorious land" and some foreign power setting up it's HQ? The Roman Power you say? They don't have an army, will they use NATO, or Russia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey? Who will they use to conquer this land in a real war?

[skyblue888]

As pointed out in an earlier post, preachers of the brand of gospel popularly preached today, were born and trained in a belief system that teaches people are born separate from Christ. To be attached, these preachers teach that people need to exercise his gift of faith. However, Scriptures make clear that man has no part in his attachment to Christ, because Christ Himself said that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING, and NOTHING obviously includes man's EXERCISE of faith. To get away from this dilemma, man's exercise of faith is not considered by these preachers as man's participation in the process of salvation. Amusing, isn't it? To think that they also teach that if man refuses to believe, then he cannot be attached. Refusal to exercise is man's own; exercising his faith is NOT his participation. Real funny.

Adding to the fun is the ever increasing number of religious groups or denominations each one telling her members theirs is the true Church. One estimate placed the count around 41,000.

Quote:

"The figures on Christian movements in this report were commissioned by the Pew Forum from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass. CSGC researchers generated their estimates based in large part on figures provided by Christian denominations and organizations around the world. CSGC has obtained denominational membership information from about 41,000 organizations worldwide." - Methodology for Estimating Christian Movements, "Global Christianity: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World's Christian Population", The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, December 19, 2011.

Scriptures explicitly say that we - Adam & Eve and all of us their descendants - were reconciled to God through the death of Christ (Rom 5:10, 11). He already attached us to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). We are one Body under one Head, Christ, and that Body is His Church (Eph 5:23). Sadly, when leaders tell their parishioners their group is the true church, then things don't come out right. Since their group is the only true church, then their church is the Body of Christ and only their members comprise that Body. The reconciling to Himself that God did for us all, we cannot apply to our fellow members in this one single Body of Christ we all belong, simply because we don't consider them as such since they are not members of our church. The message of reconciliation easily lost sight of and forgotten.

Quote:

NIV 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

It is the world, repeat, the world - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - that God reconciled to Himself through Christ. Yes, the world. You and me, and they. Not just US. We are ONE big family.

If you are a father with 12 sons, and each of the 12 started squabbling among themselves, each telling his other brethren he is the only son to the exclusion of all others, how would you as a father feel? Now consider what our Father in heaven feels for the hoopla that occurs in each of the 41,000 Christian groups!

People of God, wake up. Preach the Pure Gospel. Preach the message of reconciliation.

In Christ,

Samie

Without Christ we can do nothing, not even

believe. True, but "Christ

has dealt to every man the measure of

faith." Rom.12:3.

Therefore, "Faith is the

gift of God but the power to exercise it

is ours. Faith is the hand by which the

soul takes hold upon the divine offers

of grace and mercy." P.P.431.

"By faith take hold upon

the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing

blood will be applied." F.W.96.

It is true that "In Christ

we live and move and have our being"

(Acts 17:28) and that there is nothing we

can do to change that but spiritually not

all are connected with Christ. In order to

have a living connection with Him we must

exercise faith. We have just read that

Christ has dealt to every man the measure

of faith.

"Faith is the gift of God."

Eph.2:9.

And, when exercised, it "grows exceedingly." 2 Thess.1:3.

sky

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Refusal to exercise is man's own; exercising his faith is NOT his participation. Real funny.

This to you may be funny; to me it is God's dead serious TRUTH.

Man's <<participation>> in Faith is the gift of God and his privileged sharing in this gift of God's Grace.

It is more than good enough for me thanks.

[skyblue888]

Of course, Gerhard,

It is not exercised apart from Christ

for Christ is the life, physical life,

of every man.

"Not only is He the

Originator of all but He is the life

of everything that lives."

Education, 197-198.

So when we exercise the gift we are

only exercising that freedom that we

have in Him "that all

men through Him might believe."

John 1:7.

sky

[Samie]

Christ said no man can come to Him unless the Father draws Him:

Quote:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ...

This is because man can do NOTHING if not attached to Him:

Quote:

John 15:5 ... apart from me you can do nothing.

"Nothing" obviously includes the acts of believing or exercising faith, repenting, deciding to be baptized and coming to Christ.

On the cross, Christ made us His body of which He is the Head:

Quote:

Ephesians 2:13-16 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, ...15 ... to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross

Ephesians 5:23 ... Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Our being attached to Christ as part of His Body, is Christ's own doing. Not ours, because while separate from Him we can do NOTHING.

There are two different brands of gospel:

G1. This brand comes from the belief system that man is born separate from Christ, because of sin.

G2. This teaches man is born attached to Christ because on the cross Christ attached man to Himself and solved the problem of sin by his atoning blood.

G1 has two subgroups:

G1a. This teaches atonement was completed at the cross through the sacrifice of Christ which can only benefit him upon exercise of faith (believing). Only then is a person attached to Christ.

G1b. This teaches no atonement was made on the cross; instead, only Christ's sacrifice was completed.

G1a proponents believe that attachment to Christ occurs the moment man exercises faith. But it cannot show Biblical basis how man is able to do SOMETHING (exercise faith, repent) while still separate from Christ.

G1b proponents believe that attachment to Christ occurs when a person exercises faith as evidenced by baptism, but also cannot show Biblical basis how man is able to do SOMETHING (exercise faith, repent, decide to be baptized) while still separate from Christ. They also believe that when a name is taken up for consideration in the heavenly sanctuary and the blood of Christ applied in his favor, only then has atonement taken place for him, resulting in the paradoxical situation where a person still not atoned and reconciled, is already part of the body of Christ.

G2 has two subgroups:

G2a proponents believe Christ died only for the Elect, those whom God predestinated before the foundation of the world. None of the Elect can land in the lake of fire. Since not everybody were predestined for salvation, it necessarily follows that there were those predestined to be lost. This scenario places God's character in question.

G2b proponents believe Christ died for Adam & Eve and all their descendants having been predestinated by God for adoption as sons before the foundation of the world and wrote their names in the book of life. Adam & Eve after the fall and all their descendants lived under the terms of the New Covenat because of the death of Christ as foreshadowed by the death of a Lamb the day Adam sinned, as with all subsequent animal sacrifices. All of us were born attached to Chris, this is why we can believe, repent, decide to be baptized, etc. We remain part of His Body unless removed by Christ Himself because of refusal to overcome. Overcomers will inherit life eternal; all others lost. Removal from the Body of Christ is effected via blotting out of names from the book of life when a person dies. While alive there's hope.

It appears that G2b is the Pure Gospel Christ wanted preached to all the world before He comes again.

In Christ,

Samie

[skyblue888]

"In Christ we live and move

and have our being." Acts 17:28.

This is true for all men whether before or

after the cross and whether men realize it

or not.

Our being attached to Christ as far as our

being born into this world is a fact but only

so far as our physical nature is concerned.

Christ is the life of everything that lives.

He said, "I am the life."

"All creatures live by the will

and power of God. They are recipients of the

life of the Son of God." 1 S.M.301.

But in order to be attached to Him spiritually,

one has to exercise faith which is the gift of

God. The death of Christ will be to no avail,

in vain, unless we exercise the faith, the faith

that is available to every man for

"Christ had dealt to every man

the measure of faith." (Rom.12:3).

Hence we read that "Christ is

the Author and Finisher of our faith." Heb.12:2.

So nobody here is saying that faith is

something that comes from man unaided by

the grace of Christ.

"That all men through Him might believe

in God." John 1:7.

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To believe in God is to believe that

He receives us to Himself through the

merits of the blood shed for us upon

Calvary's cross. It is to believe that

the Father receives us through the

merits of the suffering He endured to

reconcile man to God. This is what it

means to exercise "faith in His blood."

Rom.3;25.

In other words, unless we make it our

life business to look to Christ and

to accept His merits which it is our

privilege to claim, we cannot be

saved, that is, we cannot receive

the gift that cannot be excelled,

the gift of the Holy Spirit which

brings all other blessings in its

train.

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