Atonement - when?

[Samie]

Samie I asked the moderators to consider your SPAM posts and take action. In particular your SPAMMING my thread on the 1st and 2nd ascension. Just stop with all this cluttering up the threads nonsense.

Nonsense? The words I posted which go against what you believe are from the SOP, not mine. You consider them NONSENSE, Bro Club? I thought you rather have the SOP than Scriptures.

When Samie gave you Scriptures that go against your pet belief, Samie is wresting them. When Samie posts from the SOP, Samie is SPAMMING your thread with NONSENSE. Since when were portions of the SOP nonsense to you,

brother?

[Samie]

...

"If the Holy Spirit is rejected, all My words will not help to remove, even for the time being, the false representations that have been made, and Satan stands ready to invent more. If the evidence already given is rejected, all other evidence will be useless until there is seen the converting power of God upon minds. If the convincing impressions of the Holy Spirit made in the past will not be accepted as trustworthy evidence, nothing that can be presented hereafter will reach them, because the bewitching guile of Satan has perverted their discernment." {PC 66.4}

It appears to me Samie that you have come to a point where you cannot be reasoned with, so I will heed the advice of the last above paragraph.

All I can say is I have provided verses from Scriptures that back up my position. If in standing firm with what Scriptures say Samie will be considered as BEWITCHED by Satan so be it.

But I know deep down in my heart that you yourselves know you cannot defend your position with what the Bible plainly says. You run to the SOP for refuge, but when I posted a whole lot of what are in the SOP that go against your position, then you conclude Samie is BEWITCHED by Satan.

Thank you, brother jackson. Even our Lord & Savior was condemned by leaders of the Jews as having Beelzebub, the prince of devils (Mark 3:22).

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

Samie, would you please go back and read Bro. Sky's post on page 30, #674143 - 2013-11-03 23:07:01

If you read it thoroughly you will see that Andreaasen worked on understanding the truth of it and he brings out a point I know you are missing and when you do read where he reveals it, it will clear it up for you.

In short you will see that the atonement is not completed in the outer court where the Lamb is slain but in the Sanctuary. The earth is the outer court and the Sanctuary is the True one in Heaven of which the one man pitched was a teaching pattern of how it would be.

This same question was raised back yonder and ironed out back then and I am sure you can and hopefully will see Andreasen reckoned this thing out right.

His Blessings.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

We know Jesus ascended Sunday morning, sometime after telling Mary not to touch Him. And I conclude He returned sometime Sunday late afternoon or evening when He next appeared to the assembled disciples. Who could NOW touch Him.

Now this is according to Seventh-day Adventist views and the prophets book, Desire of Ages.

The question is: WHAT did He DO in heaven that Sunday before returing to earth for forty days on Sunday afternoon?

Desire of Ages picks up the story at Revelation chapter 4 and 5.

[brackets are my comments] Is this happening on SUNDAY MORNING at His FIRST ascension? Or upon His return, 40 days later?

"There is the throne, [Father on throne in Holy Place] and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God [who are they?], the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council [who is this?] before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms [more unfallen worlds or Solar Systems?] over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. But He waves them back... [as He did Mary?]. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf [He arose on the DAY of the wave sheaf offering, a Sunday], those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied."

Desire of Ages, pg 834

[Gibs]

Very good addition, ClubV12,

There comes a time much later that He receives ALL honor and Glory and it is all Heaven can bestow as it is shown all by seven things,

This is after He is found Worthy to open the book with seven seals,

Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive (1)power, and (2)riches, and (3)wisdom, and (4)strength, and (5)honour, and (6)glory, and (7)blessing.

Amen!!

Soon we are going to be with our Great and Wonderful King Jesus.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I have a thread with the above post, but Samie started "copy/paste" his stuff on that thread from this thread. So, I thought I would just ask the same questions here, since he is feeling left out and ignored.

The moderators are looking into Samies copy/paste random thoughts off topic posting in my thread. Until that is resolved....

[Samie]

Samie, would you please go back and read Bro. Sky's post on page 30, #674143 - 2013-11-03 23:07:01

If you read it thoroughly you will see that Andreaasen worked on understanding the truth of it and he brings out a point I know you are missing and when you do read where he reveals it, it will clear it up for you.

In short you will see that the atonement is not completed in the outer court where the Lamb is slain but in the Sanctuary. The earth is the outer court and the Sanctuary is the True one in Heaven of which the one man pitched was a teaching pattern of how it would be.

This same question was raised back yonder and ironed out back then and I am sure you can and hopefully will see Andreasen reckoned this thing out right.

His Blessings.

[Gibs]

Samie, yes He sure did offer up Himself but at that time He was not yet acting as High Priest. He now is carrying on the Atonement of the True blood that would suffice and not of goats and bulls, etc.

It is the High Priest who performs the Atonement and He could not do that until He took that position,

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

There He presents His Blood for the redemption of the case deemed to be one of the saved.

He was slain outside the court, the slaying of the victim is not the atonement.

This will be my last post on this subject as it is clear when the Atonement is actually done, one must reason out what was meant is complete before He enters into the Holy Place before the Throne.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

We know Jesus ascended Sunday morning, sometime after telling Mary not to touch Him. And I conclude He returned sometime Sunday late afternoon or evening when He next appeared to the assembled disciples. Who could NOW touch Him.

Now this is according to Seventh-day Adventist views and the prophets book, Desire of Ages.

The question is: WHAT did He DO in heaven that Sunday before returing to earth for forty days on Sunday afternoon?

Desire of Ages picks up the story at Revelation chapter 4 and 5.

[brackets are my comments] Is this happening on SUNDAY MORNING at His FIRST ascension? Or upon His return, 40 days later?

"There is the throne, [Father on throne in Holy Place] and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God [who are they?], the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council [who is this?] before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms [more unfallen worlds or Solar Systems?] over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. But He waves them back... [as He did Mary?]. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf [He arose on the DAY of the wave sheaf offering, a Sunday], those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied."

Desire of Ages, pg 834

[Samie]

Here's Crozier's next foundation pillar on why atonement could not have been made on Calvary:

2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

[ClubV12]

We know Jesus ascended Sunday morning, sometime after telling Mary not to touch Him. And I conclude He returned sometime Sunday late afternoon or evening when He next appeared to the assembled disciples. Who could NOW touch Him.

Now this is according to Seventh-day Adventist views and the prophets book, Desire of Ages.

The question is: WHAT did He DO in heaven that Sunday before returing to earth for forty days on Sunday afternoon?

Desire of Ages picks up the story at Revelation chapter 4 and 5.

[brackets are my comments] Is this happening on SUNDAY MORNING at His FIRST ascension? Or upon His return, 40 days later?

"There is the throne, [Father on throne in Holy Place] and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God [who are they?], the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council [who is this?] before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms [more unfallen worlds or Solar Systems?] over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. But He waves them back... [as He did Mary?]. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf [He arose on the DAY of the wave sheaf offering, a Sunday], those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied."

Desire of Ages, pg 834

[Samie]

Below is Crozier's foundation pillar #4:

4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

[ClubV12]

We know Jesus ascended Sunday morning, sometime after telling Mary not to touch Him. And I conclude He returned sometime Sunday late afternoon or evening when He next appeared to the assembled disciples. Who could NOW touch Him.

Now this is according to Seventh-day Adventist views and the prophets book, Desire of Ages.

The question is: WHAT did He DO in heaven that Sunday before returing to earth for forty days on Sunday afternoon?

Desire of Ages picks up the story at Revelation chapter 4 and 5.

[brackets are my comments] Is this happening on SUNDAY MORNING at His FIRST ascension? Or upon His return, 40 days later?

"There is the throne, [Father on throne in Holy Place] and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God [who are they?], the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council [who is this?] before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms [more unfallen worlds or Solar Systems?] over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. But He waves them back... [as He did Mary?]. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf [He arose on the DAY of the wave sheaf offering, a Sunday], those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied."

Desire of Ages, pg 834

[JoeMo]

OK; this is getting just plain weird...

[Samie]

This is Crozier's foundation pilla #5:

Quote:

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest."

Crozier understood Heb 8:4 "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest." as saying that Christ was not a Priest on earth, neither a common priest nor high priest. Therefore, no atonement could have been done by Him Who was no Priest after all.

But does the verse actually mean what Crozier understood it to mean? Notice that the word "priest" is translated from the Greek word "hiereus" whch refers to the common priests, in contrast with the "High Priest" which is from the Greek "archiereus". The verse is simply saying that Christ was not "hiereus" on earth. Why? Because He was "archiereus" on earth, a High Priest! Not an ordinary, common Priest. He was, is and will always be "archiereus", a High Priest in the order of Melchisedec!

Did somebody say "Yes, He was High Priest; but He became High Priest only when He ascended to heaven; NOT when He was on earth. He was neither a common priest nor High Priest while on earth!"? And we are back to square one. Why not consult our Lord Himself. Let us find out from His own declaration whether He was High Priest on earth or not.

Quote:

NKJ Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

In this verse the Lord was reminding His disciples of what He previously told them. He was here saying that those things He told them before have now found fulfillment as written in the law of Moses, the Prophets and in the Psalms.

What is in the Psalms that Christ said was among the "all things" that found fulfillment?

Quote:

KJV Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

ESV Psalm 110:4 The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Where in the Bible does it say that the above verses in the Psalms found fulfillment in the incarnation of our Lord?

Quote:

Luke 3:21-22 21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

NKJV Acts 13:33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'

KJV Hebrews 5:5-6 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The above verses testify that the Messianic Psalm had been fulfilled in the incarnation of our Lord. Christ was made High Priest by His Father long before His incarnation. As evidence that He was High Priest on earth, He was able to OFFER Himself as sacrifice for sin, an act only the High Priest was authorized to do at Yum Kippur (Lev 16:15).

Quote:

Hebrews 7:27-28 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Crozier's foundation pillar #5 crushes under the weight of Bible evidence that exerts too much pressure upon it.

Sister White herself has attested that Christ was Priest when He offered Himself on Calvary:

Quote:

As in the typical service the high priest laid aside his pontifical robes and officiated in the white linen dress of an ordinary priest; so Christ laid aside His royal robes and garbed Himself with humanity and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. As the high priest, after performing his service in the holy of holies, came forth to the waiting congregation in his pontifical robes; so Christ will come the second time, clothed in garments of whitest white, “so as no fuller on earth can white them.” Mark 9:3. He will come in His own glory, and in the glory of His Father, and all the angelic host will escort Him on His way. {AA 33.3}

In Christ,

Samie

(Crozier's foundation pillar #6, the last pillar, in my next post...)

[Gibs]

Samie, Ya needs have posted more than the one verse from Hebrews 8. To get the context!

Heb 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

The priests on earth pointed to the true High Priest in the Heavenly who of course is Jesus Christ.

Crosier and Andreasen both have it right!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Crozier's last foundation pillar, pillar #6:

Quote:

The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us.

Crozier started pillar #6 with "Therefore", implying a conclusion. The basis for the conclusion was his previous 5 pillars and/or the introductory statement "The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly."

Since the previous 5 pillars were not able to sustain the weight of Scripture evidence piled over them and crumbled, we are left with no other option but to consider his introductory statement for his final pillar as basis for his conclusion.

Samie has no argument against the introductory statement. It is true. What is not true is the conclusion Crozier derived from it. Just because Christ's designation as High Priest is a Divine Priesthood, He is limited to doing the work of His office only in heaven, and could not have possibly exercised it on earth?

Christ's Divine Priesthood is in the order of Melchisedec. It necessarily follows that the Priesthood of Melchisedec is a Divine Priesthood, a heavenly one, too. If Melchisedec was able to perform his duty on earth (Heb 7:1-11), why can't Christ perform His priestly duty on earth?

Did Someone say "Scriptures record one priestly duty that Melchisedec performed: he received tithes. He did not do anything that had something to do with atonement! And our topic is atonement, not tithes."? Very good observation. So, to atonement we shall go.

Was Christ PRECLUDED from performing any duty relative to atonement while on earth?

In earlier posts, Samie has shown from Scriptures that forgiveness is a consequence of atonement. Was Christ empowered to forgive sins on earth?

Quote:

NKJV Matthew 9:2-6 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you." 3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, "This Man blasphemes!" 4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 "For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'? 6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" -- then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

"The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins", are the words of Christ Himself, which He spoke on authority from the Father:

Quote:

John 14:10 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

In the light of what our Savior Himself said about His God-given authority of being able to forgive sin on earth and hence on atonement, the conclusion that Christ "did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension", is not only bereft of Bible evidence but also goes against the words of our Savior Himself.

This weight of Scripture evidence is more than Crozier's final foundation pillar could bear.

Scriptures have spoken. A perfect atonement that forgave and cleansed us from all sin was made on Calvary (Matt 26:28; 1 Tim 1:15; Col 2:13, 14; Rev 1:5; etc.).

Is it then any wonder why, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Sister White, more than 50 years after her endorsement of Crozier's conclusion, finally wrote:

Quote:

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.—The Signs of the Times, June 28, 1899. {7ABC 459.7}

He [Christ] planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The Atonement is complete.”—The Review and Herald, September 24, 1901. {7ABC 459.6}

In Christ,

Samie

[joeb]

I'm going to give a different view of atonement than has been presented here.

What is atonement? Let's let the Bible tell us.

Quote:

Exodus 30: 11 ¶And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.*n7

13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.

14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.*n8*n9

16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

Notice in verse 12 God tells Moses that the COI were to give a half shekel a year as a "ransom for his soul". Then read on down to verse 16 and see what God sees the money as: Atonement money.

The word ransom in verse 12 comes from the Hebrew word kopher.

Quote:

3724 kopher ko'-fer from 3722; properly, a cover, i.e. (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively, a redemption-price:--bribe, camphire, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village. see HEBREW for 03722

What's the only meaning of this word that makes sense in the literal Hebrew? Redemption-price. So, God sees the ransom they are paying as the redemption-price for their souls. Then God goes on to equate that with atonement in verse 16. The Hebrew word translated there as atonement is found throughout the OT translated as atonement in the sanctuary services. And the majority of the other Hebrew words that are also translated as atonement are very closely related to this one.

The word atonement is found only one time in the NT. That instance is found in Romans.

Quote:

Romans 5: 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The word translated as atonement means as follows from Strong's concordance:

Quote:

2643 katallage kat-al-lag-ay' from 2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:--atonement, reconciliation(-ing). see GREEK for 2644

So what does the literal Greek mean? Exchange!

This ties directly back to the example I gave from Exodus, for each of the COI were to give a half shekel ransom in exchange for their souls, and that ransom was their atonement. God says this directly. He spoke it directly to Moses, so we cannot ignore God's own definition of an atonement.

Did Jesus give us anything in exchange for our sins? Yes. He gave His life "a ransom for many". And He asks the question, What will a man give in exchange for his soul? See the continuity?

So what is the atonement? It was Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But, that isn't the end of the story for Christ is constantly interceding for us. He is constantly pointing to His sacrifice, His ransoming of us, to show that anyone who fully believes in Him, obediently follows where He leads, and accepts the price He paid for their soul, is His follower, a part of His church.

This is why Christ gave a full and complete atonement, a perfect atonement, at the the cross. The problem is too many people want to make that the end of His work of atonement for and in us, for every time He points to His cross in forgiving our sins He is claiming the exchange He has made for us. The atonement He has made for us.

[Gibs]

These verses plainly state where the atonement takes place.

Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Heb 9:8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Christ enters the greater and perfect tabernacle and enters the Holy place. This is where the Blood is applied. His own Blood to plead for each one worthy.

Fifth grade understanding. The type here on earth showed where it was to occur and there we see it in the true played out the same!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

These verses plainly state where the atonement takes place.

[Heb 9:7-12]

Christ enters the greater and perfect tabernacle and enters the Holy place. This is where the Blood is applied. His own Blood to plead for each one worthy.

Fifth grade understanding. The type here on earth showed where it was to occur and there we see it in the true played out the same!

[Gibs]

Jesus did not serve as a high priest here on earth in the type and if you remember the veil of the earthly was rent in half when He died and the sacrifice made and God left it.

Now from scripture it is clear He then enters the Heavenly to complete the work of High Priest of whom does the atonement. Yes here is where He applies His Blood and pleads it over each saved case.

If it were completed here on earth there would be no need of His doing anything in Heaven.

Also if it was completed here on earth, every case would be decided. I do not think at the moment any living now that their case is decided. But it could be beginning with the living at any moment.

Many want to believe that and all one has to do is just believe and you are saved.

At some point the cases of the living do come up and for all we know are beginning.

Does not the teaching pattern given us in the OT tell you anything. That is what it is for! It seems to me we have a lot of just NT SDA believers. The Word is not complete without the OT!

The old covenant teaches the same as the new covenant, the different is,

It was made of better promises, the True Blood.

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

"Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old. The conditions are, and ever have been, based on perfect obedience."

Manuscript Releases, Volume 1 Nos. 117

[Gerr]

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. One party may give all the guarantees he wants, but unless the OTHER party agrees, all the promises are null and void. That is why the atonement at the Cross cannot be mine in reality until I repent, confess, and accept it by faith and sign on to the covenant.

[Samie]

Bro Gibs, I asked you this question:

You believe atonement occurs in heaven, and so all sins are there, because for you no atonement occurred on Calvary. Granting you the benefit of doubt, are the sins being cleansed from the Sanctuary in heaven among the sins which God said He will remember no more? Please explain your answer, using Biblical basis where possible.

[Gibs]

Samie, no atonement is done in the outer court of which the earth is of which the true lamb was slain and now in this case of what the type pointed to the atonement has to occur in the Heavenly not pitched by man where Jesus is now officiating at the Throne as our great High Priest for us, presenting His Blood to atone for the sins of the redeemed.

Here EGW will tell you the atonement is completed only by one who is the high priest and that is Christ's only work in the Heavenly,

" In the typical system,—which was a shadow of the sacrifice and priesthood of Christ,—the cleansing of the sanctuary was the last service performed by the high priest in the yearly round of ministration. It was the closing work of the atonement,—a removal or putting away of sin from Israel. It prefigured the closing work in the ministration of our High Priest in Heaven, in the removal or blotting out of the sins of his people, which are registered in the heavenly records. This service involves a work of investigation, a work of judgment; and it immediately precedes the coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; for when he comes, every case has been decided. Says Jesus, “My reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” [Revelation 22:12.] It is this work of judgment, immediately preceding the second advent, that is announced in the first angel's message of Revelation 14:7: “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come.” {GC88 352.2}

Samie, I see it is useless to go further with this to you so there will be no more come backs.

Rattle on if you care to, I have laid it out and others but your mind is closed it seems.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.