Are We Redeemed?

[JoeMo]

Robert,

I wasn't aware that angels were created in the image and likeness of God - I thought that was an attribute reserved only for man. Could you please provide a scripture reference? Thanks!

JoeMo

[Woody]

Quote:

Well you may choose not to believe His Word that is your choice

Wait a minute.

Who are you referring to that doesn't believe in the Bible?

[Robert]

Well you may choose not to believe His Word ....

You can't read the word of God like you read a book. You must allow the Spirit to guide you. That's thinking outside the box.

Look, if God creates evil, then God is evil. It's just that simple. If God created Satan, then God is the problem. Instead God created Lucifer. He was perfect in his ways, until iniquity (i.e., self-love) was found in him. God didn't create that bent-to-self (evil). To say He did is blasphemy.

[Gibs]

Look, if I did it the way you do I could prove about any false doctrine. Some things are spiritually discerned but this is a direct statement.

Originally Posted By: Gibs

- - Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And then Robert says,

No, God didn't create evil. He created Lucifer in His image after His likeness. However, God knew Lucifer would rebel against His agape love. Because of this God assumes the blame....I've talked about this before.

Then where He says "I make peace", can we not belive Him as is stated? If one must be wrested then all must be done the same?

Not on your life Robert, You'll not find me a taker in your twist of things.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

God gives us two sources of inspiration - His Word (Logos) and His Spirit (Rehma). We are to use them both to get a clear picture of God and His will for us. His Spirit guides us into an understanding of God's word, and we use His word to verify the inspiration of His Spirit. Jesus is the Word made flesh - the Bread of Life. His Spirit is the Living Water. God serves us both bread and water. When he serves bread - eat. When he serves water - drink. It takes both bread and water in this world to live. It takes both the Bread of Life and Living Water to obtain eternal life in the spiritual realm.

[Robert]

I wasn't aware that angels were created in the image and likeness of God - I thought that was an attribute reserved only for man.

Yes, Genesis speaks of mankind. What, then, does it mean to be created in God's likeness after His image?

Well, Adam was created sinless. His heart - his humanity reflected the self-emptying love of God (called agape). That's what it means to be made in God's image and likeness.

Otherwise we have a problem. Why? The Bible says that God is Spirit. So to be in His image & likeness can't mean what He looks like, but rather it speaks of His character.

Now, after the fall, no longer is Adam's offspring in God's image. Go to Gen 5:1

1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years (keep in mind this is after the fall), and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Seth was born in the image of his fallen, father. He was born bent-to-self. He wasn't born in the image of God.

So to be born in the image of God means to perfectly reflect His agape love.

[Gibs]

I post this as it has some reference to what is being discussed above but also other thoughts of value are brought forth here by EGW,

"The casting down of Satan as an accuser of the brethren in Heaven was accomplished by the great work of Christ in giving up his life. Notwithstanding Satan's persistent opposition, the plan of redemption was being carried out. Man was esteemed of sufficient value for Christ to sacrifice his life for him.

Satan, knowing that the empire he had usurped would in the end be wrested from him, determined to spare no pains to destroy as many as possible of the creatures whom God had created in his image. He hated man because Christ had manifested for him such forgiving love and pity, and he now prepared to practice upon him every species of deception by which he might be lost; he pursued his course with more energy because of his own hopeless condition. {3SP 194.2}

Christ came to earth to vindicate the claims of his Father's law, and his death shows the immutability of that law. But Satan thrusts upon man the fallacy, that the law of God was abolished by the death of Christ, and he thus leads many professed Christians to transgress the Father's commandments, while they assume devotion to his Son. {3SP 195.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Christ came to earth to vindicate the claims of his Father's law, and his death shows the immutability of that law

In other words Christ didn't lay aside the law. What does the law demand of the sinner? Death!!

Well, Christ isn't the sinner so He can't die instead of you. So at the incarnation God mysteriously united Christ's deity with our fallen humanity that needed redeeming. Hence "in Christ" you died the demands of the law. Rom 6:6/Rom7:4

[Gibs]

"We are to look unto Jesus as our only hope for the taking away of our sins; for in him is no sin. He became sin for us, that he might bear our guilt, standing before the Father as guilty in our place, while we who believe in him as a personal Saviour shall, because of his merits, be accounted as pure from the contaminating influence of sin. Through the imputed righteousness of Christ, we are accounted guiltless. Christ has given to every human being the evidence that he alone is able to bear human grief, sorrow, and sin. Those who claim Christ as their substitute and surety, hanging their helpless souls upon Christ, can endure as seeing him who is invisible. The benediction, "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God," belongs to them." {ST, October 3, 1895 par. 6}

Then our sin is placed on the scapegoat, but only the redeemed.

"Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Then our sin is placed on the scapegoat, but only the redeemed.

So Satan pays for our sins? Sounds like Satan is part Savior!

Jesus bore the sins of the whole human race, why does Satan bear our sins? He is responsible for his owns sins. Remember, guilt can't be transferred:

Ez 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

[Gibs]

Well Robert she stated the truth to you and it is your free choice to take it or refuse it. I knew what she stated before I even readed her scope of it. Yes Satan is the scapegoat and deserves to be. Men will suffer to for deceiving the souls of men causing their loss. The Just one will bring perfect Justice be assured.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Well Robert she stated the truth to you and it is your free choice to take it or refuse it.

You are making Ellen White the measuring stick of truth. Go to your Bible...disprove me from the Bible. Ellen White isn't the final word. She wasn't infallible. She didn't have all truth. Who said? Ellen White.

BTW, you didn't answer my question!

[Gibs]

On the salvation issue especially all have found EGW is in no way misleading from what our Bibles teach us. You need to show us where and when she led astry anything on this subject.

Here is another of her truism statements,

"The Lord Jesus is your personal intercessor. . . . Repeat over and over many times through the day, "Jesus has died for me. He saw me in peril, exposed to destruction, and poured out His life to save me. He does not behold the soul as a trembling suppliant prostrate at His feet without pity, and He will not fail to raise me up." He has become the advocate for man. He has lifted up those who believe in Him and placed a treasurehouse of blessing at their demand. Men cannot bestow one blessing upon their fellows, they cannot remove one stain of sin. It is only the merit and righteousness of Christ that will avail anything, but this is placed to our account in rich fullness. We may draw upon God every moment. As we turn to Him, He answers, "Here I am." {HP 79.2}

( He is our ever present in us help! )

A second one,

"We cannot provide a robe of righteousness for ourselves, for the prophet says, “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). There is nothing in us from which we can clothe the soul so that its nakedness shall not appear. We are to receive the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of heaven, even the spotless robe of Christ’s righteousness. We are to say, “He died for me. He bore my soul’s disgrace, that in His name I might be an overcomer and be exalted to His throne.” {OFC 138.4}

It is privilege of the children of God to be filled with all the fullness of God. “Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end” (Ephesians 3:20, 21). {OFC 138.5}

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

On the salvation issue especially, all ( ) have found EGW is in no way misleading from what our Bibles teach us.

Of course not, she was infallible in your mind. She made no errors. She knew all truth.....Come on, read her statements:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

Go to your Bible, Gibs, and stop using Ellen White as a pacifier.

[JoeMo]

You need to leave me out of the "all" part of your post, Gibs. IMO there are several things EGW wrote (either that or excerpts found only in compilations that may have been taken out of context) that I find is either in direct conflict with sctipture; or for which there is no correlation with scripture. I'm not saying EGW is "bad"; I'm just saying she isn't infallible. If the choice is scripture or SoP, I'll take scripture every time.

Of course, her writings have been so severely edited by the EGW Estate; and she "borrowed" from so many other authors, that it's kinda hard to say what she wrote and what others wrote without way more study than I am willing to do.

[Gibs]

On the salvation issue I ask you, where you can find she is off according to scripture, post it here for us to scrutinize and decide. Her explation of the scripture compared to yours of each one you find.

I will venture to say she knew her Bible better than any I know today. Her explanation of most of the Bible is her exoneration on that I do think most will find. I am right there with her on this Salvation issue.

One better think more than twice to go against one sent of God and in this about the ending of time I am with her.

She is one or the other, sent of God or sent of Satan.

I set my stakes that she was sent of God.

No she or no man or prophet was infallable. Only god and His Word is infallable.

There is nothing wrong with her using some statements of others that she found to be her same line of thought. I do it too and you will find most of the Apostles and Disciples did too.

If one is based well enough from reading Her works and the Bible you will not be led astry by the compilations. Just watch for the misleading notes that are from the compiler, it may not be her line of teaching.

EGW was a special one of God's children and know this with only a third grade education where do you think her wisdom and understanding came from.

One answer only is true, she got it from God by His Spirit and His Word, the fountain and foundation of wisdom and understanding from the only source from which it flows.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Sorry Gibs,

I have neither the time nor the desire to research all of her writings. I have my Bible to study, Sabbath School lessons to prepare, and music to practice (I'm a praise leader at a couple different churches). I also have 7 kids (2 of whom I still support); and a job I have to go to every day just to survive.

As I stated in a previous post, if, in over 6 months' time, neither of us has budged the other one's position, it would be a waste of our time; especially since I don't consider Mrs. White's interpretation of things (or your interptretaion of her interpretation)as infallible.

Also, as I have stated before, I respect your heart and your consistency.

Be Blessed,

JoeMo

[Robert]

You need to leave me out of the "all" part of your post, Gibs.

[Robert]

On the salvation issue I ask you, where you can find...

"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our (EGW includes herself) expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892

[JoeMo]

Thanks for that quote Robert! I thought I remembered it from somewhere; but I didn't want to quote it since i didn't know where it was from.

JoeMo

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I'm a busy boy too and I read the Bible and EGW quite a lot. You wouldn't want me I don't think in your Sabbath school class I don' figure as I probably would not be in agreement with some of your teaching. Just be sure, double sure what you teach is Biblical and not wrested.

Robert I do think you could do better than this statement of me, "See, I warned you. He is equivalent to a Judaizer in the time of Paul. I'm not saying he is lost, but I am saying he presents a perverted gospel. It's the gospel of Babylon.

He might be sincere, but he is sincerely wrong."

You know something Robert, if I am wrong then Jesus, the Disciples and Apostles and EGW are too as none of them teach any can be saved in sin and continuing sin.

This is the important part of the program of salvation that He laid that all could come unto Him and obtain power and be overcomers of which He makes it clear we must be. Works my foot, it is His Salvation and it is only by His way!

The only works is the death of self and the old man of which few will do and fall broken on Him that He can be in you to strengthen you. Be dead of sin and it can be done at any time, fall on the knees and be broken and crushed, dead to the old sin cherished so much. Gotta want to, He won't force any, He leaves one free to or not too.

Love to Him with all our hearts and souls is required.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Because, well,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

On the salvation issue I ask you, where you can find...

"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our (EGW includes herself) expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892

[Robert]

You know something Robert, if I am wrong then Jesus, the Disciples and Apostles and EGW are too as none of them teach any can be saved in sin and continuing sin.

By that you mean perfectionism....No one is living Christ's life. Are you? His life answers all the law. Does yours?

[Woody]

Quote:

You know something Robert, if I am wrong then Jesus, the Disciples and Apostles and EGW are too as none of them teach any can be saved in sin and continuing sin.

Jesus came to save SINNERS of which I am CHIEF.

[Robert]

This is the important part of the program of salvation that He laid that all could come unto Him and obtain power and be overcomers of which He makes it clear we must be. Works my foot, it is His Salvation and it is only by His way!

No, that's a perverted gospel.

You, sir, are not a Sabbath keeper. You are breaking the Sabbath. You are in Babylon!