George Knight's book on Romans says Romans 2 is true!

[BobRyan]

George is one of the first well-known SDA authors in recent times to affirm that Romans 2 is actually true - instead of conforming to the more popular evanglical idea that Romans 2 is "just pretend". (See his recent book on "Romans").

Does anyone know of anyone else affirming that point among our leading authors?

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

What are the implications?

[Gibs]

Yes for me Romans 2 is an excellent chapter and is very, very true. I can't see any questioning that. But I'm old school. I don't try putting a twist on any of His Word.

I guess I didn't know any questioned it, good to know and thanks Bob for the heads up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

George Knight says a lot of good things, and I like to read his stuff.

Unfortunately, I have a hard time liking the guy though, knowing how much he has "put down" Waggoner and Jones.

[BobRyan]

I am usually skeptical of George Knight's doctrinal views after reading how he affirms some of the more problematic positions of Heppenstall.

Be that as it may - he surprised me when he came out in favor of accepting Romans 2 - as true.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

I cannot take all in of Heppenstall or George Knight. That don't say we don't need though to not make sure of all the others, we are counciled to test all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

he came out in favor of accepting Romans 2 - as true.

Is this true?

"For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified"

Keep in mind the verse preceding the above: "as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law"

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

he came out in favor of accepting Romans 2 - as true.

Is this true?

"For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified"

Keep in mind the verse preceding the above: "as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law"

Yes - that turns out to be true.

"For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified .. on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all mankind" Romans 2:13-16

There are two contexts for justification - one is justification past (as we see in Romans 5:1-2) and the other is justification future (as we see in Romans 2:13-16).

One is not based on works - (Romans 5:1) - and the other one is based on the Matt 7 principle about the changed life showing the fruit of a changed life.

In the "success" examples - the lost person enters the justification past process of Romans 5:1 and comes out saved.

And the saved person enters the justification future process and comes out "still saved".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

What are the implications?

The implications are that the popular view in our seminary going against Romans 2 being true - is not correct and better yet - it is the fact that one of the most powerful texts in the Bible explaining the precise mechanism of the future judgment - is now available for some SDAs to use in evangelism.

in Christ,

Bob

[LynnDel]

Originally Posted By: olger

What are the implications?

The implications are that the popular view in our seminary going against Romans 2 being true - is not correct and better yet - it is the fact that one of the most powerful texts in the Bible explaining the precise mechanism of the future judgment - is now available for some SDAs to use in evangelism.

in Christ,

Bob

Hmmm... I would hope that anything the Bible says is and has always been available for use in evangelism! If we are waiting for a PhD to give us permission, we're in big trouble.

[doug yowell]

In the "success" examples - the lost person enters the justification past process of Romans 5:1 and comes out saved.

And the saved person enters the justification future process and comes out "still saved".

Proving that there is a real once saved, always saved.

[doug yowell]

What exactly is in question about Rom.2?

[Robert]

There are two contexts for justification - one is justification past (as we see in Romans 5:1-2) and the other is justification future (as we see in Romans 2:13-16).

No, there are not two methods of justification! You will never be just under law. Read the context. You and others are bad about ignoring context.

[Gibs]

" Many look upon the days of Israel as a time of darkness, when men were without Christ, without repentance and faith. Many hold the erroneous doctrine that the religion of the children of Israel consisted in forms and ceremonies, in which faith in Christ had no part. But men in that age were saved by Christ as verily as men are saved by him today. They were under a discipline of mercy, and had special privileges in their day, even as we have in ours. Christ was shadowed forth in the sacrifices and symbols, which were to last till type should reach antitype in his coming to our world. The Hebrews rejoiced in a Saviour to come. We rejoice in a Saviour who has come, and who is coming again. {YI, July 18, 1901 par. 19}

Shrouded in the pillar of cloud, the world's Redeemer held communion with Israel. Let us not say, then, that they had not Christ. When the people thirsted in the wilderness, and gave themselves up to murmuring and complaint, Christ was to them what he is to us,--a Saviour full of tender compassion, the Mediator between them and God. After we have done our part to cleanse the soul-temple from the defilement of sin, Christ's blood avails for us, as it did for ancient Israel. Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, July 18, 1901 par. 20}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

" Many look upon the days of Israel as a time of darkness, when men were without Christ, without repentance and faith. Many hold the erroneous doctrine that the religion of the children of Israel consisted in forms and ceremonies, in which faith in Christ had no part. But men in that age were saved by Christ as verily as men are saved by him today. They were under a discipline of mercy, and had special privileges in their day, even as we have in ours. Christ was shadowed forth in the sacrifices and symbols, which were to last till type should reach antitype in his coming to our world. The Hebrews rejoiced in a Saviour to come. We rejoice in a Saviour who has come, and who is coming again. {YI, July 18, 1901 par. 19}

Shrouded in the pillar of cloud, the world's Redeemer held communion with Israel. Let us not say, then, that they had not Christ. When the people thirsted in the wilderness, and gave themselves up to murmuring and complaint, Christ was to them what he is to us,--a Saviour full of tender compassion, the Mediator between them and God. After we have done our part to cleanse the soul-temple from the defilement of sin, Christ's blood avails for us, as it did for ancient Israel. Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, July 18, 1901 par. 20}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

j

1Cor 10 "they all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock (Petra) was Christ"

Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached to US just was it was to THEM also"

Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham".

Gal 1:6-11 "there is only ONE Gospel".

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

there is only ONE Gospel

Yes, and I'm afraid none of you know it.

[Gibs]

The True Gospel is the Power of God to save from sin and not in sin,

Please read,

" The law and the gospel cannot be separated. In Christ mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. The gospel has not ignored the obligations due to God by man. The gospel is the law unfolded, nothing more nor less. It gives no more latitude to sin than does the law. The law points to Christ; Christ points to the law. The gospel calls men to repentance. Repentance of what?--Of sin. And what is sin?-It is the transgression of the law. Therefore the gospel calls men from their transgression back to obedience to the law of God. Jesus, in His life and death, taught the strictest obedience. He died, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty, that the honour of God's law might be preserved, and yet man not utterly perish. {BEcho, February 8, 1897 par. 1}

"Do they not say to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee"? The Lord has defined sin as the transgression of his law, but they say they are saved in sin, and thus make Christ the minister of sin. These professed Christians are doing the very work that Satan did in Paradise, they are leading souls astray by precept and example. They say to the sinner, to the transgressor, It shall be well with thee; you will rise to a higher, holier state by violating the law of God. The lesson that is heard throughout the land is, "Disobey and live." But how different is this teaching from the lessons of Christ. He declared: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." {ST, April 28, 1890 par. 5}

If that is legalism, then Christ was a legalist. Well in no way, He made it so it is He that works in you and your cooperation however must be applied, He works and man cooperates and is changed. He dies of the old man of self and lives in and for Jesus Christ.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

The True Gospel is the Power of God to save from sin and not in sin....

No! Stop the lies. Stop breaking the 9th commandment!!! The gospel was God's work in Christ. You can't contribute anything to that perfect work done 2000 years ago. All you can do is receive it by faith.

[Robert]

If that is legalism, then Christ was a legalist.

Why do you think Christ gave the law? As a matter of salvation? NO!!! That's Old Covenant thinking. God gave the law to turn everyday sin into transgression. He gave the law to make matters worse. Before you didn't realize you were a sinner, but after He gave the law you realize it and stand condemned under the law. You have two choices:

1] Keep playing the self-righteous card and pretend like you are a holy joe, or

2] Accept the righteousness of Christ and be delivered from under the law.

The Jews made the choice to be under law. So when Christ came along He once again tried to show them the impossibility of being saved by their law obedience. Hence Matt chapter 5. And He ends in saying, "Therefore YOU shall be perfect (how perfect?) just as your heavenly Father IS perfect."

If you think you can be as perfect as God then there's no hope for you. Hence you'll not need Christ and that will cause you to become lost.

[Robert]

There are two contexts for justification - one is justification past (as we see in Romans 5:1-2) and the other is justification future (as we see in Romans 2:13-16).

Yes, you are right.

There's justification by faith and justification by works. Paul speaks of justification by works here:

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

[Gibs]

An explanation of DEAD faith follows,

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead faith isn't worth one of today's penny let alone a nickel!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Did Abraham have works of faith? Sure.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Keep in mind Abraham was already justified by faith when he received Christ. So his work of faith didn't justify him, rather it proved his faith.

You have to understand the whole story of Abraham to see the issues. That will take sometime. However, the point is, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son because he believed God would have to raise Issac because God had promised that through Issac his descendents would number as the stars of the sky.

Clearly, however, you can never be justified by the works of the law.

Again, you are getting the two confused because you do not understand the gospel so you naturally branch off into legalism. This will cause you to be lost. Get with the program and give up your righteousness, which is self-righteousness, for the righteousness of Christ.

[Gibs]

No one I see is saying we are justified by the keeping of the law. The law is kept from love and to please Him and because we want to. It has become our love to do so. We do what we want to do from what we love.

We show whether we really love Him first and best or our old way in sin and rebellion.

This "DO" if ye will live!

"Then if this great and infinite sacrifice has been made in our behalf, let us ask ourselves, What are we doing? Do we say, "Believe, believe on Christ, and that is all"? If we have not the faith that works by love, and purifies the soul from every stain of sin, then we have a spurious faith. Christ is not the minister of sin. And what is sin? The only definition given in God's word is, "Sin is the transgression of the law;" and the apostle Paul declares, "Where no law is, there is no transgression." The law is the great standard that will measure every man's character. {BEcho, June 11, 1894 par. 7}

God has given us the revelation of His will, and we shall be without excuse if we do not study the sacred word. Hear what the voice of the true Shepherd says to you, and walk in the path of obedience and love. "This do," said Jesus, "and thou shalt live." We cannot afford to lose eternal life. May God grant that we may meet you around the throne of God, to sing with you the song of redemption in the kingdom of glory. {BEcho, June 11, 1894 par. 8}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

No one I see is saying we are justified by the keeping of the law.....This do," said Jesus, "and thou shalt live." We cannot afford to lose eternal life.

[Gibs]

No Robert, when it is seen one is breking the law it just proves we are lacking in loving Him enough. It becomes no problem if we love Him with all our hearts and souls. You got the power if you have the love.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.