George Knight's book on Romans says Romans 2 is true!

[Robert]

Romans 3:23 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love).

How do I know that "the glory of God" is His agape love?

Ex 33:18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory." 19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence."

"Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus (the glory of God) is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." [DA 20]

[Robert]

So please do not tell me that you can justify yourself before God's law by keeping it! Why? The law requires perfect, agape love. Agape, says Paul, "is not self-seeking". Where you have self-seeking you have sin and sin is the transgression of the law. "The lover of self is a transgressor of the law." [Ellen White]

Hence, again:

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Adventists ) any better (then those Sunday keepers)? Not at all! We have already made the charge that (Adventist and Baptist, Methodist, etc) alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

[BobRyan]

Hence, again:

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Adventists ) any better (then those Sunday keepers)? Not at all! We have already made the charge that (Adventist and Baptist, Methodist, etc) alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

Indeed the lost person has a problem - and all are lost until they accept the Gospel.

And it is because of that we have the Romans 2 result on planet earth where some have accepted the Gospel - and some have not.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Indeed the lost person has a problem...

So, you are inferring that Romans 3:9,10 is speaking of the lost - the unconverted? Hence "there is none righteous" doesn't apply to you, correct? That assumes you are righteous, correct? So then, you can stand before God's holy law and say "as to the righteousness in the law, blameless", correct? If not, then according to Romans 2:13 you cannot be declared righteous before the law since you are not blameless. Hence no heaven for you.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Hence, again:

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Adventists ) any better (then those Sunday keepers)? Not at all! We have already made the charge that (Adventist and Baptist, Methodist, etc) alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

Indeed the lost person has a problem - and all are lost until they accept the Gospel.

And it is because of that we have the Romans 2 result on planet earth where some have accepted the Gospel - and some have not.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Hence "there is none righteous" doesn't apply to you, correct?

But once they accept the Gospel solution - they are born again. They are a new Creation. The Law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant. It is no longer they who live - but Christ who lives in them.

But they aren't sinless....they aren't Holy. They are growing, but they aren't fully grown. Hence, according to the law, "there's none righteous". You apparently can't comprehend that!

Again, you use the following to try to prove Paul is teaching salvation by works:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

That's true, but only "under law". (see Romans 2:12 last sentence) The believer has been delivered from under the law, not because the law is not holy & good, but because to be under law means death - the 2nd death.

If you aren't measuring up (and you are not), then you can't be declared righteous by the law. The law will condemn you. That means you are lost. Understand?

[BobRyan]

Christ said to Peter "when you are converted feed my sheep"

I am saying (as already noted above) that all mankind needs salvation and the Gospel provides that solution - some accept and some reject the Gospel. And that contrast between the two groups is seen clearly in Romans 2.

[Robert]

You keep circling back to the problem for the lost person without the Gospel.

No, it doesn't matter who you are (Jew or Gentile) there's none righteous, period. Only "in Christ" can Jew and Gentile be righteous by faith. You will never, never stand just before God's law in your performance!!! Those who think they are are deceived.

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

You keep circling back to the problem for the lost person without the Gospel.

No, it doesn't matter who you are (Jew or Gentile) there's none righteous, period.

Indeed that is the problem for the lost.

you keep cirlcing back to it.

you have that part of the issue down cold.

But Christ Himself says "by their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES The will of My Father" Matt 7

[Robert]

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

[Robert]

But Christ Himself says "by their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES The will of My Father" Matt 7

Yes, not their law based perfection....

[BobRyan]

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

Indeed all the lost -- are lost and are in need of the Gospel - so all mankind is in need of accepting the Gospel.

And the good news of Romans 6 and Romans 2 and 1Cor 6 and Romans 8 is that some HAVE accepted the Gospel!

No need to keep circling back to the problem of the lost - we can move on to the solution in the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Romans 8

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

That Romans 8 principle contrasting the lost and the saved helps us understand James 2, 1John 2, Romans 2 - already posted above.

[Q.E.D.]

There are none righteous???

"5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."(Luke 1:5-6)

"17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."(Matt 13:17)

"29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,"(Matt 23:29)

"35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."(Matt 23:35)

"37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?"(Matt 25:37)

"12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."(1 Pet 3:12)

"7 ¶ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"(2 Pet 2:7-9)

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."(1 John 3:7)

"4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead *yet speaketh."(Heb 11:4)

"12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."(1 John 3:12)

"11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."(Rev 22:11)

Q.E.D.

[BobRyan]

And so in Matt 18 in the case Jesus presents of "forgiveness revoked" it is the fully forgiven servant that refuses to then obey the Gospel - and act in correspondence with his full and free forgiveness - the experiences forgiveness revoked. For his deeds were not in harmony with this condition as a forgiven saint - his forgiveness was then revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

There are none righteous???

"The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state–men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men."(Great Controversy, 1911 edtition, page 491)

Q.E.D.

[BobRyan]

So that Robert can feel that we are giving his view of sin and the law its due share of time.

The problem for the lost according to the Bible.

Rom 3:

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.''

13 "" THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,'' "" THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS'';

14 "" WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS'';

15 "" THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.''

18 "" THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.''

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

Romans 8

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 2

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Romans 3 and Galatians 3 agree - that lost are lost. No amount of obedience on the part of the lost - can save them.

The lost person has only one solution - the Gospel with its forgiveness, and new birth, and new heart and freedom from the penalty of sin - and freedom from slavery to sin.

Clearly - we all can see this part. No need to keep circling back to it as if this is the only truth found in the Bible and the Gospel did not exist.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

There are none righteous???

Q.E.D.

Yes, "in Christ"! Righteous by faith, not in reality. None are living Christ's holy life. If they were they could brag. Maybe you can brag?

[Robert]

May I remind you of what Ellen White stated:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

Self-seeking is sin. Agape lives for others and they you....Self-love lives for it's own interests. It goes to college to gain wealth for itself. And to look good it gives to charities and even maybe pays tithe, but that's so it won't look selfish. It's a lie....

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure (what do I want); but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

That's agape. Not a thought about self....Living for others with no self-interests - that's righteous.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

There are none righteous???

Q.E.D.

Yes, "in Christ"! Righteous by faith, not in reality. None are living Christ's holy life. If they were they could brag. Maybe you can brag?

There are none righteous???

Let's see what the Holy Bible states.

"5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."(Luke 1:5-6)

There are none righteous???

Let's see what Ellen White states.

"The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state–men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above."(Great Controversy, 1911 edtition, page 491)

Sounds like reality to me. . .

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

"5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."(Luke 1:5-6)

1] What are "the commandments and ordinances"? I would need more proof that it's the Ten Commandments. Even then, "the law is spiritual" - meaning there's more to the law then just the dos and don'ts.

2] No one is perfect. All have sinned and are failing short of God's agape love. That's Paul in Romans 3:23.

3] And speaking of Paul, he never claimed to be blameless before God's law. Yes, as a Pharisee Paul did. You can read that in Phil 3:6. But years after his conversion he said, "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected" (Phil 3:12)....So the great Apostle Paul, who put the other disciples to shame (see 1 Cor 15:10), never considered himself blameless before God's law.

4] For argument sake, let's say you are right. Doesn't help your cause because it doesn't say, "Q.E.D. walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless". So unless you can be blameless you won't make it.

5] Looking at 1,2,3...God must have meant blameless "in Christ" through faith or in the administration of the sacrificial services and the laws governing those things....

[Q.E.D.]

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

Confession of sin makes one righteous by the promise of God.

Righteousness by faith. . .

Q.E.D.