George Knight's book on Romans says Romans 2 is true!

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

"5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."(Luke 1:5-6)

1] What are "the commandments and ordinances"? I would need more proof that it's the Ten Commandments.

You may need proof. . .not I.

Believing the Word of God as it reads. . .

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

"5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."(Luke 1:5-6)

3] And speaking of Paul, he never claimed to be blameless before God's law. Yes, as a Pharisee Paul did. You can read that in Phil 3:6. But years after his conversion he said, "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected" (Phil 3:12)....So the great Apostle Paul, who put the other disciples to shame (see 1 Cor 15:10), never considered himself blameless before God's law.

"6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing"(2 Tim 4:6-8)

Keeping the faith. . .

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

"5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."(Luke 1:5-6)

5] Looking at 1,2,3...God must have meant blameless "in Christ" through faith or in the administration of the sacrificial services and the laws governing those things....

Amazing!

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

Confession of sin makes one righteous by the promise of God.

Righteousness by faith. . .

Q.E.D.

The law isn't in the business of forgiveness. Under law you must either be perfect or die. Are you under law?

[Robert]

You may need proof. . .not I.

Believing the Word of God as it reads. . .

Q.E.D.

No, it's speculation. The Bible is complicated. I need evidence, not just because you said this or that.

[Robert]

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith

Yes, but keeping the faith is not keeping the law.

Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith, on the contrary, "The man who does these things (the commandments) will by them live."

[Robert]

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

You are holy & blameless in Christ's humanity IF you keep your faith in Him. Otherwise you must be holy & blameless before the law!

Do you feel holy before God's law? If not, get with Christ - He is your righteousness.

[BobRyan]

As we noted earlier -

So that Robert can feel that we are giving his view of sin and the law its due share of time.

The problem for the lost according to the Bible.

Rom 3:

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.''

13 "" THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,'' "" THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS'';

14 "" WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS'';

15 "" THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.''

18 "" THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.''

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

Romans 8

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 2

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Romans 3 and Galatians 3 agree - that lost are lost. No amount of obedience on the part of the lost - can save them.

The lost person has only one solution - the Gospel with its forgiveness, and new birth, and new heart and freedom from the penalty of sin - and freedom from slavery to sin.

Clearly - we all can see this part. No need to keep circling back to it as if this is the only truth found in the Bible and the Gospel did not exist.

[BobRyan]

Now lets look at the saved -

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

[Robert]

Quote:

The lost person has only one solution - the Gospel with its forgiveness, and new birth, and new heart and freedom from the penalty of sin - and freedom from slavery to sin.

Since you are believer I take it you are free from your bent-to-self (sin)? I would like to test that assumption!

[BobRyan]

Is this your way of applying Bible exegesis to the subject??

[Robert]

Is this your way of applying Bible exegesis to the subject??

Your exegesis is selective. Common sense can prevail here and shut your perversion of the gospel down - even before your very eyes. So answer the question! After all, you have stated that a person is justified by his law obedience. Are you perfect, as Christ was and is perfect? Yes?

[BobRyan]

common sense it is then -- lets see what the Bible says about the saved.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Now come on Robert - we have given you your due on the subject of the Lost and their relationship to sin and the Law.

Now how about you giving us a fair look at what the bible says in the above example to the saints?

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

common sense it is then -- lets see what the Bible says about the saved.

So, you are blameless before God's law. Hence you are justified before God's law because of your obedience. Congratulations. I didn't know you were Holy? My mistake...or maybe not:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

[Robert]

Now how about you giving us a fair look at what the bible says in the above example to the saints?

in Christ,

Bob

You will never gain heaven by your law performance. You are righteous in Christ alone. What you are is self-deceived. You are no doubt a traditional SDA, and will one day join with Roman. The two you agree that you can be saved by your obedience. Hence faith + works = salvation. Instead of "not I, but Christ" it is "I + Christ". Oh, that will be glory for you....

Sorry, that's self-glory....You have nothing to offer God. He saved you in Christ alone and all you can do is experience that....you can't add to it.

[BobRyan]

"That" is your look at the texts above?

Must I post them "again"??

What is it going to take??

It appears you are only willing to look at the texts dealing with the problem of the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

"That" is your look at the texts above?

Must I post them "again"??

What is it going to take??

It appears you are only willing to look at the texts dealing with the problem of the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

Like Job, God may have to humble your proud, self-righteous spirit. I hope not....

[BobRyan]

Flame posting me is not a funny kind of substitute for good Bible exegesis of texts that do not fit your model.

now -- lets see what the Bible says about the saved.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

I've got a better one:

Matt 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees [who were full time law keepers], you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven....[the conclusion:] 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, [how perfect?] just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Are you, Mr. Romans 2, as perfect as God is perfect? Yes, no?

Before you answer, let me give you your prophet:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. [in other words you aren't perfect as God is perfect] He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

Now, your answer please? Don't hold back...

[BobRyan]

Are you, Mr. Romans 2, as perfect as God is perfect? Yes, no?

Oh good - we get to talk about Romans 2 - and the GOSPEL Paul says in it.

But first Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them...not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

Now on to Romans 2 - since you seem to think I wrote it.

But what does Paul say about those under the GOSPEL in Romans 2? (You know -- the "Gospel" where the LAW of God is written on the mind and on the heart?? Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:31-33)

Romans 2

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

=======================

Please note - Paul is the author of Romans 2 -- it is Paul that affirms this to be "according to my GOSPEL".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Before you answer, let me give you your prophet:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. [in other words you aren't perfect as God is perfect] He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

Now, your answer please? Don't hold back...

Are you saying that as a SDA - or non-SDA?

If SDA - then I am happy to show you what Ellen White wrote about perfection of Character to "balance" your view of the material.

If not as SDA - then back to the Bible please - because I really enjoy "sola scriptura"

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Quote:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived

I'll quote Ellen when I see that she agrees with the Bible.

As to her above quote see 1 John 1:8

[Robert]

Oh good - we get to talk about Romans 2 - and the GOSPEL Paul says in it.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived

I'll quote Ellen when I see that she agrees with the Bible.

Oh good - then we can go to the Bible -

Romans 2 comes to mind --

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post578450

in Christ,

Bob