George Knight's book on Romans says Romans 2 is true!

[Robert]

Ro 2:12....and as many as have sinned in the law (under the law) shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You see if you are "under the law" then the law is your judge. What does the law say to those who are under it? Let me give you Ellen White:

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. ...He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

The law demands complete selflessness - i.e., agape love. It doesn't care if you are 99% compliant, it demands 100% righteousness without a blemish. One sin, even by a thought, is enough to place you in death row awaiting the 2nd death.

So under law no one will be saved, period!

So don't sit there with your smug attitude and tell me you can be just before the law in your performance. If you do you are liar and the truth, Christ, is not in you. Who said that?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Robert]

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.)

What does Paul mean by the above?

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall by them live." 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,...9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Under law "The man who does those things shall by them live." In other words if you keep the law then you get life, but if you sin death.

Now go to Gal 3:11

... no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just by faith shall live." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall by them live."

So you have Romans 2:13 and Romans 10:5 and Gal 3:12 saying the same thing, i.e., under law you must live a life without sin in order to get life. That's obey and live!

[Gibs]

Can't you see, I know of ourselves we can do nothing but when we take Him into us we are more than conquerors. We have all power there is as none is greater than He.

This is the plan He laid that we too can walk as He showed it could be done having the Divine Nature within. The Father in Him and Jesus in us is the same power, for all power is given Him.

Yes since He has made it so we too can have His power to overcome it is expected of course. And the keeping of the law is of love to please Him, His Law is in our hearts and our desire, we do not have the old man's desire no more. We now are of His will and are totally free within His Will. Not one thing is there outside of His Will do we want to do. This is what it means to be a free man or woman within His Will. We are free, no bondage whatsoever.

We are walking with Him as Enoch walked with God and God took Enoch.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

We have nothing of which to boast, we are only cooperators and He is the Master in us and the Power.

[Robert]

We are walking with Him as Enoch walked with God and God took Enoch.

No, Enoch was changed because his humanity was indwelt by iniquity. Hence he was changed to make him acceptable in heaven.

Again, Do you suppose to stand before God's law and claim to be righteous before it? Yes?

[Gibs]

According to Enoch he was taken into heaven and then so he could be face to face with God he was changed then when he came back to earth to give the words God spoke to him he had to be changed back so men could look upon him. He now holds one of the highest positions in Heaven, changed back of course.

Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

All will have to stand before the law Robert and if the robe of Christ's righteousness isn't on you you are toast.

That is why you cannot continue in sin, the moment you do the law condemns you and you are smack dab under it again. You die with one unconfessed sin and you are out.

No you are not under the law til you brake it, the law didn't die or go away, it is as eternal as it's maker.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

You can't abolish the law Robert and sin and not have it counted against you. No sinner continuing in sin will be in heaven. It wouldn't be heaven if He took sin into it with people not cleaned of it.

This realm we are in Robert is our cleanup time, if He was going to do it all and nothing for you He would not have needed to come and died. He would have just made us robots without a free will.

You fight like a tiger to not have to be accountable to the law, it won't happen.

The gospel and the law are intertwined.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

...he was changed then (when he met God face to face)

What a lie...what a lie!

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (sarx - our humanity indwelt with sin) and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[Gibs]

I see you have not read the works of Enoch. The point is moot however, the fact is God took him. He was not immediately taken into the seventh heavens where God dwells, he was shown all else before and you should get the paper backs and read them

The point I put out is that we too are enabled to walk as Enoch did, that is the realization we should come to see.

Yes Robert I have always known when we will be changed, and we are immediately going to the Holy City.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I see you have not read the works of Enoch.

I see you don't know the basics. Our humanity, indwelt with iniquity, is unfit for heaven. Hence Enoch had to be changed before he entered heaven. He had to have a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. Comprehend?

[Gibs]

Just read Enoch and see for yourself. He was changed but not in the first places they took him.

[Robert]

No, he was changed before he went to heaven. Otherwise, then, he had "holy flesh" while on earth. Are you teaching that heresy again?

The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh [a glorified, immortal, sinless humanity]. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18).

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21). . . .[2SM 32, 33]

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:1 For there is no partiality with God. (In what sense? We must read on:)

12 For as many as have sinned without law (like the Gentiles) in Romans 1:20,21) will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law (like the Jews) will be judged by the law...

What does it mean to be judged "under the law".

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Abraham was not justified under the law. Abraham's work of faith had nothing to do with the law. As a matter of fact the law says "you shall not kill", yet Abraham was about to do just that.

By contrast - God said "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” Gen 26:5

Originally Posted By: Robert

If you are speaking of the Ten Commandments they weren't given until approximately 400 years later.

Prove to me that Gen 26:5 was speaking of the Ten Commandments using the immediate context of Genesis.

Moses is writing Genesis 26 and Moses' readers had access to both Genesis and Exodus so he did not repeat all the books in every other book.

Which is why we can find a reference to clean and unclean animals in Genesis 6 and 7 - without having the detailed explanation of it until we get to Leviticus 11.

So - "yes" we are indeed including the Ten Commandments in that Genesis 26:5 statement as most Christians will admit today.

Originally Posted By: Robert

That wasn't proof. You need to show me, in context, it was the Ten Commandments.

That was the context - Moses is the author - he is writing to his readers and the context of Genesis is that it is one of 5 books written by Moses that his readers had access to - so as we saw with Genesis 6 and 7 - the information given in his other books applies in Genesis.

Simple.

Moses did not go to Abraham's day and write a letter to Abraham or to Lot. Moses is writing in HIS day. And his readers have 5 (or six) books written by Moses.

Thus this same phrase " My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Is used repeatedly by Moses in his books.

This is another reason why almost all of the non-SDA groups accept the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant - and originating from Eden for all mankind.

[Robert]

I quote the Bible and you respond with "no".

[BobRyan]

In short --

To perish without the Law is to follow the rule of James 4:17 - it is only sin that is known to the one who is unaware of the Law.

Thus for that SAME group in Romans 2:13-16 some are actually saved - and counted as saints who do not know the Law but "Do INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law showing the WORK of the Law written on the heart... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind".

Let us look even closer at just how Paul declares the one who is without the Bible - to be saved in that example - "who does instinctively the things of the Law showing the WORK of the Law written on the heart".

Romans 2

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It is perfectly clear that the gentile example is succeeding in the Romans 2:13-16 and Romans 2:26-29 illustration Paul makes in Romans 2.

Paul is emphatic in Romans 2:6-12 that BOTH the succeeding cases AND the failing cases are IN the scope of his topic.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

the rule of James 4:17

We aren't writing about James...we are dealing with the context of Romans 2. Stop being dishonest with the text.

[Robert]

"Do INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law showing the WORK of the Law written on the heart... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind".

According to the gospel or according to the law? The gospel. If we are judged according the law you can kiss your butt goodbye. Understand? If not, then go up to the law and say, "Law, let me into to heaven because I am totally righteous". Will you say that? If you do, again, kiss something goodbye. You want make it.

[BobRyan]

Have I mentioned the subject of "exegesis" yet?

As I pointed out in my previous post - the context of what is said about that succeeding Gentile example as seen IN the chapter of Romans 2 is key.

(And is key to exegesis).

And SO ALSO is the affirmation and information we find in the Bible where other writers speak to the same principle.

James 4:17 "to him who knows to do right and does it not- to him it is sin".

Paul addresses this in Romans 14 "whatever is not of faith is sin" when he argues that one thing can be a sin for one person - but not another.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"Do INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law showing the WORK of the Law written on the heart... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind".

[BobRyan]

Sometimes you will see the suggestion that we not look at the details in Romans 2 to exegete the meaning of the chapter - but rather - read some other chapter instead when trying to exegete the details of the text you find in Romans 2.

But the details in Romans 2 are persistent in showing the Gospel in action both in the case of those who accept it - and in the case of those who reject it. It is not stuck at the POV of the lost - acting without entry into and benefit of the Gospel.

Notice the details - both cases of those under the New Covenant with the Law written on the heart -- and those outside the New Covenant are considered in this chapter.

============================================

Romans 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

================================

As Christ said - "by their fruits you shall know them"

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by the faith (Jesus)? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

Romans 3 brings out a great point about the lost needing salvation - and the fact that we all have a sinful nature and we all need the Gospel.

And now back to Romans 2 - showing the results of the Gospel as well as the case of those who reject the Gospel -- not merely the results of the fall of man .

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

...

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

The Great Need

"To those who urged that "the preaching of the gospel answers all the ends of the law," Wesley replied: "This we utterly deny. It does not answer the very first end of the law, namely, the convincing men of sin, the awakening those who are still asleep on the brink of hell." The apostle Paul declares that "by the law is the knowledge of sin;" "and not until man is convicted of sin, will he truly feel his need of the atoning blood of Christ. . . . 'They that be whole,' as our Lord Himself observes, 'need not a physician, but they that are sick.' It is absurd, therefore, to offer a physician to them that are whole, or that at least imagine themselves so to be. You are first to convince them that they are sick; otherwise they will not thank you for your labor. It is equally absurd to offer Christ to them whose heart is whole, having never yet been broken."–Wesley, sermon 25"(Great Controversy, 1911 edition, page 263)

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

Romans 3 brings out a great point about the lost needing salvation.....

No, Romans 3 sums the previous chapters:

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews who have the law) any better (than the Gentiles who do not)? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (that is, they are born bent to self). 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

Ellen White, to the believer:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

"The marked contrast", what does that mean? It means if you compare your righteousness to Christ you'll come up short. Doesn't Paul say that? Yes, he does!

Romans 3:23 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love).

[Gibs]

When the stony cold heart is broken then we are given HIS robe of righteousness.

It is equally absurd to offer Christ to them whose heart is whole, having never yet been broken."–Wesley, sermon 25"(Great Controversy, 1911 edition, page 263)

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

"The marked contrast", what does that mean? It means if you compare your righteousness to Christ you'll come up short. Doesn't Paul say that? Yes, he does!

Romans 3:23 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love).

Do you know what that means, Bob? It means that you are never measuring up to the highest demands of God's Holy law! Therefore, according to the law, "there is none righteous, no, not even one."

"There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification (holiness/perfection). True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last." (Ellen G. White, The Faith I Live By, page 116.)

"True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are battling with daily temptations, overcoming their own sinful tendencies, and seeking for holiness of heart and life, make no boastful claims of holiness. [Reflecting Christ, 70]

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained (i.e., I am holy)." [The Acts of the Apostles, chapter 55]