George Knight's book on Romans says Romans 2 is true!

[Robert]

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace

[Gibs]

We can be exonerated by the law if ya don't break it after being forgiven of past sin, but we all know we are not justified by the law or made righteous by keeping it. Yes it is possible to keep but not of our weakened perverted selves.

It is possible yes with Christ in us but the keeping is not the object of our salvation. The object of keeping it is from our love for Him and the law now part of us as our desire to fulfill We are free and happy in doing so and find the true peace and Joy He means for us to have. Then it is no yoke at all to wear.

This will not happen until the full and complete surrender is made though and most will not do it! If you will not let Christ be the sole, one and only, master in you He cannot and will not abide there. You must make Him and Him only the Master in the soul Temple for Him to dwell.

Cooperate with Him in building that building, soul Temple in you and then sing, "I'm working on a building" and of course He is it's builder, you can only say it because you are cooperative and want it done.

Here is what the law does and it's place to bring you - - - Gace, forgiveness and Love!

"As the sinner looks to the law, his guilt is made plain to him and pressed home to his conscience, and he is condemned. His only comfort and hope is found in looking to the cross of Calvary. As he ventures upon the promises, taking God at His word, relief and peace come to his soul. He cries, "Lord, Thou hast promised to save all who come unto Thee in the name of Thy Son. I am a lost, helpless, hopeless soul. Lord, save, or I perish." His faith lays hold on Christ, and he is justified before God." {FW 99.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

We can be exonerated by the law if ya don't break it after being forgiven of past sin

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law doesn't forgive, Gibs. And please don't tell me that you needed forgiveness once and then you never sinned again. That's a lie (see 1 John 1:8) and so you just sinned again!

So much for being exonerated by the law.

Man, I tell you, you preach 100% legalism!

[Gibs]

Robert, you done have told me something, and I am sorry for you truly I am.

You couldn't ask for more power than Christ in you and you tell me you can't walk as He walked? Just one reason for that! Robert don't want to!

Let Him be the Master in you and it will be done as it was in Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I really think you've gone of the deep end, Gibs. You are so legalistic and self-righteous that like Job you can't see it. You really have deceived yourself.

[JoeMo]

Gibs, you said "JoeMo, I think you did not mean that statement above as it appears" about my statement "Maybe I'm dense; but I don't see how any man can determine what is 'true" or "false" about scripture." Yeah, I meant it exactly that way. look at the first statement in this thread:

"George is one of the first well-known SDA authors in recent times to affirm that Romans 2 is actually true - instead of conforming to the more popular evanglical idea that Romans 2 is "just pretend". (See his recent book on "Romans")."

and then further down:

"The implications are that the popular view in our seminary going against Romans 2 being true "

I am asking who do these guys think they are to presume to determine what is true or not true in scripture? It's all true to me.

[BobRyan]

Abraham was not justified under the law. Abraham's work of faith had nothing to do with the law. As a matter of fact the law says "you shall not kill", yet Abraham was about to do just that.

[BobRyan]

I still don't know what the SDA theologians at Andrews don't believe is true about Rom.2?

Some SDA scholars take the popular Evangelical and Protestant view of Romans 2 - arguing that Paul cannot possibly be serious - cannot possibly mean what he is saying there. They suppose he is simply trying to string legalists along as if to get them to believe what he is saying - only to fully contradict his teaching in Romans 2 when he gets to Romans 3 and shows them that the Romans 2 statements were just kidding around.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

God said "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” Gen 26:5

If you are speaking of the Ten Commandments they weren't given until approximately 400 years later.

Prove to me that Gen 26:5 was speaking of the Ten Commandments using the immediate context of Genesis.

[Robert]

They suppose he is simply trying to string legalists along as if to get them to believe what he is saying - only to fully contradict his teaching in Romans 2 when he gets to Romans 3 and shows them that the Romans 2 statements were just kidding around.

Romans 2:1 For there is no partiality with God. (In what sense? We must read on:)

12 For as many as have sinned without law (like the Gentiles) in Romans 1:20,21) will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law (like the Jews) will be judged by the law...

What does it mean to be judged "under the law". It means the law is your judge and according to the law if you sin once you have had it - no heaven for you. In other words to stand just before the law it not the 13 (the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified)....

The Jews tried to justify themselves under law. What happened? They became such Holy Joes that crucified Jesus because He offended their righteousness. They didn't need no stinking Savior, they had the law. They were righteous, but in their own eyes.

On the other hand you hand the Gentiles, who only knew God through nature:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by (the law? No, but)by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I still don't know what the SDA theologians at Andrews don't believe is true about Rom.2?

Some SDA scholars take the popular Evangelical and Protestant view of Romans 2 - arguing that Paul cannot possibly be serious - cannot possibly mean what he is saying there. They suppose he is simply trying to string legalists along as if to get them to believe what he is saying - only to fully contradict his teaching in Romans 2 when he gets to Romans 3 and shows them that the Romans 2 statements were just kidding around.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks Bob, I never heard even Evangelicals preach anything like that. I was brought to Christ thru a dispensational Bible study of Romans and never once heard the inspiration of Paul questioned. In fact, most ev's believe in verbal inspiration which would seem to disallow any second guessing of Paul's message. Maybe our scholars are now being given over to the natural consequences of allowing higher critical thinking to guide them in their understanding of how Scripture was given? Gone is the "Bible is it's own best commentary" principle? "Desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm."?

[LynnDel]

Do those who believe in verbal inspiration seek to learn the original languages and read in the original languages? Because surely not all the translators and interpreters are verbally inspired -- otherwise we would not have Bible versions that disagree with each other.

LD

[BobRyan]

By contrast - God said "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” Gen 26:5

Originally Posted By: Robert

If you are speaking of the Ten Commandments they weren't given until approximately 400 years later.

Prove to me that Gen 26:5 was speaking of the Ten Commandments using the immediate context of Genesis. [/quote']

Moses is writing Genesis 26 and Moses' readers had access to both Genesis and Exodus so he did not repeat all the books in every other book.

Which is why we can find a reference to clean and unclean animals in Genesis 6 and 7 - without having the detailed explanation of it until we get to Leviticus 11.

So - "yes" we are indeed including the Ten Commandments in that Genesis 26:5 statement as most Christians will admit today.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I still don't know what the SDA theologians at Andrews don't believe is true about Rom.2?

Some SDA scholars take the popular Evangelical and Protestant view of Romans 2 - arguing that Paul cannot possibly be serious - cannot possibly mean what he is saying there. They suppose he is simply trying to string legalists along as if to get them to believe what he is saying - only to fully contradict his teaching in Romans 2 when he gets to Romans 3 and shows them that the Romans 2 statements were just kidding around.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

They suppose he is simply trying to string legalists along as if to get them to believe what he is saying - only to fully contradict his teaching in Romans 2 when he gets to Romans 3 and shows them that the Romans 2 statements were just kidding around.

Romans 2:1 For there is no partiality with God. (In what sense? We must read on:)

12 For as many as have sinned without law (like the Gentiles) in Romans 1:20,21) will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law (like the Jews) will be judged by the law...

What does it mean to be judged "under the law".

James 4:17 "to him who knows to do right and does it not- to him it is sin".

Paul contrasts those who know about the Word of God(The Law of God) with those who do not in Romans 2:13-16 and tells us that even those who have no access at all to the Word of God will be counted as spiritual Jews - saved - with the New Covenant promise of "the Law of God written on the heart" (Heb 8) - and those who have Bibles and know what is in the Word of God - but choose not to obey God will be counted as pagans.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

So - "yes" we are indeed including the Ten Commandments in that Genesis 26:5 statement as most Christians will admit today.

That wasn't proof. You need to show me, in context, it was the Ten Commandments.

[Robert]

Romans 2:1 For there is no partiality with God. (In what sense? We must read on:)

12 For as many as have sinned without law (like the Gentiles) in Romans 1:20,21) will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law (like the Jews) will be judged by the law...

What does it mean to be judged "under the law". It means the law is your judge and according to the law if you sin once you have had it - no heaven for you. In other words to stand just before the law it not the 13 (the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified)....

The Jews tried to justify themselves under law. What happened? They became such Holy Joes that crucified Jesus because He offended their righteousness. They didn't need no stinking Savior, they had the law. They were righteous, but in their own eyes.

On the other hand you hand the Gentiles, who only knew God through nature:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by (the law? No, but)by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:1 For there is no partiality with God. (In what sense? We must read on:)

12 For as many as have sinned without law (like the Gentiles) in Romans 1:20,21) will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law (like the Jews) will be judged by the law...

What does it mean to be judged "under the law".

James 4:17 "to him who knows to do right and does it not- to him it is sin".

Paul contrasts those who know about the Word of God(The Law of God) with those who do not in Romans 2:13-16 and tells us that even those who have no access at all to the Word of God will be counted as spiritual Jews - saved - with the New Covenant promise of "the Law of God written on the heart" (Heb 8) - and those who have Bibles and know what is in the Word of God - but choose not to obey God will be counted as pagans.

Romans 2

13 not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified)....

Just as Christ also said "not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" (Matt 7)

Paul also affirms this in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Romans 2

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

[BobRyan]

By contrast - God said "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” Gen 26:5

Originally Posted By: Robert

If you are speaking of the Ten Commandments they weren't given until approximately 400 years later.

Prove to me that Gen 26:5 was speaking of the Ten Commandments using the immediate context of Genesis.

Moses is writing Genesis 26 and Moses' readers had access to both Genesis and Exodus so he did not repeat all the books in every other book.

Which is why we can find a reference to clean and unclean animals in Genesis 6 and 7 - without having the detailed explanation of it until we get to Leviticus 11.

So - "yes" we are indeed including the Ten Commandments in that Genesis 26:5 statement as most Christians will admit today.

Originally Posted By: Robert

That wasn't proof. You need to show me, in context, it was the Ten Commandments. [/quote']

That was the context - Moses is the author - he is writing to his readers and the context of Genesis is that it is one of 5 books written by Moses that his readers had access to - so as we saw with Genesis 6 and 7 - the information given in his other books applies in Genesis.

Simple.

Moses did not go to Abraham's day and write a letter to Abraham or to Lot. Moses is writing in HIS day. And his readers have 5 (or six) books written by Moses.

Thus this same phrase " My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Is used repeatedly by Moses in his books.

This is another reason why almost all of the non-SDA groups accept the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant - and originating from Eden for all mankind.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

James 4:17 "to him who knows to do right and does it not- to him it is sin".

No, the law doesn't care if you don't know. Look at Romans 2:12

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law

[Robert]

Moses did not go to Abraham's day and write a letter to Abraham or to Lot. Moses is writing in HIS day. And his readers have 5 (or six) books written by Moses.

I don't care....Moses was given insight into Abraham and he wrote about his life. Now show me, using Abraham's history, that Moses was writing about the Ten Commandments. Find it in Genesis chapters 15 - 25

[Gibs]

I notice if you read these 3 verses and don't pull one out you can see what Paul is saying,

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

I could explain them but I see no need, but if any don't get it drop me a PM and I'll explain it to you.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I notice if you read these 3 verses and don't pull one out you can see what Paul is saying,

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The Gentiles didn't have the law, yet under law they were still condemned as sinners. The Jews were under the law (Old Covenant, by choice) and the law judged them also. It condemned both Jew and Gentile (see Romans 3:9,10)

Paul goes on to say that if you wish to be justified under the law you must keep it, not just agree with it (hence more than mere hears of the law). But as we know no one can be saved by law (see Romans 3:20)

Those Gentiles who accepted God though nature had agape written in their hearts and they will be judged not by the law, but by Christ's righteousness.

[Gibs]

One Gentile who knew not the law sinned and perished,

Another Gentile who knew not the law did not sin had the law within and so did not perish.

You see there is an example of not needing to know the law to not sin.

But what do you think determined if he sinned or not, don't matter if he knew it or not we see as the one who did sin perished.

Verse 13 tells us what matters, that it is doers of the law that are justified.

End of story!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

(other) Gentile(s) who knew not the law did not sin had the law within and so did not perish.