George Knight's book on Romans says Romans 2 is true!

[JoeMo]

Well it looks like this is again becoming a "saved by grace" vs. "saved by works" debate between Robert and Gibs. No one will ever win and no one will ever sway anyone. I might as well put in the same two cents I put in on these debates - I've said it before and I'll say it again:

We keep the law as our witness that we have been saved as the RESULT of the grace (unmerited favor) granted to us through the sacrifice as Jesus. Obedience is NOT a PREREQUISITE to salvation. We can't do a thing to merit salvation or earn it. Christs' death is the all-sufficient sacrifice for all sin that ever was, is, our will be committed; and His resurrection and ascension into Heaven are the sign of the Father's acceptance and approval of the sacrifice.

Over and out.

[Robert]

You got the power if you have the love.

Let me see...if I love Him I get the power to overcome..hmmm? Funny, you and I are born with only self-love and now you are telling me I first have to love God with an unselfish love so God can give me the power to overcome sin (self-love). That is circular reasoning. That is legalism.

[Robert]

W Obedience is NOT a PREREQUISITE to salvation. We can't do a thing to merit salvation or earn it.

Tell that to Gibs the Pharisee.

[phkrause]

Well it looks like this is again becoming a "saved by grace" vs. "saved by works" debate between Robert and Gibs. No one will ever win and no one will ever sway anyone. I might as well put in the same two cents I put in on these debates - I've said it before and I'll say it again:

We keep the law as our witness that we have been saved as the RESULT of the grace (unmerited favor) granted to us through the sacrifice as Jesus. Obedience is NOT a PREREQUISITE to salvation. We can't do a thing to merit salvation or earn it. Christs' death is the all-sufficient sacrifice for all sin that ever was, is, our will be committed; and His resurrection and ascension into Heaven are the sign of the Father's acceptance and approval of the sacrifice.

Over and out.

I think this will always happen JoeMo. Let me say this, that I have not read anyone actually say that we will be saved by works. What I'm really hearing is that works is a by-product of grace.

[JoeMo]

Hey Planey,

I know this is off-topic, but I just saw the picture of you and your grandon (I'm guessing?) in the "Featured Member" box; and it made me miss my grandkids. He's such a cute little guy! Just good genetics?

Back to topic - I agree that no one has actually come out and say we are saved by our works Maybe I just infer it when they say that if we don't obey perfectly, we will burn in the lake of fire along with satan. I disagree with that; I truly believe that we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) alone through our faith in Jesus. Period. Our works do not enter into our salvation at all We can't do anything that will make God love us any more or less than He already does. Trying to scare or intimidate people into loving God doesn't work. You can't love someone you fear; and worrying that you are not keeping God's law good enough and being unsure of your salvation is not God's way. He wants us to be sure of our salvation. As a result, we obey will Him unconsciously out of love rather than out of force of will or obligation.

Just my opinion....

[Gail]

The one with the grandson is pkrause... We are hoping to see pictures with 2 grandchildren soon

Planey's avatar is... a plane.

[phkrause]

The one with the grandson is pkrause... We are hoping to see pictures with 2 grandchildren soon

Planey's avatar is... a plane.

LOL, thanks for reminding me, but your right I do need to update that now. :)

[Robert]

Trying to scare or intimidate people into loving God doesn't work. You can't love someone you fear; and worrying that you are not keeping God's law good enough and being unsure of your salvation is not God's way. He wants us to be sure of our salvation. As a result, we obey will Him unconsciously out of love rather than out of force of will or obligation.

Just my opinion....

Bingo!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

he came out in favor of accepting Romans 2 - as true.

Is this true?

"For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified"

Keep in mind the verse preceding the above: "as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law"

[Robert]

There are two contexts for justification

No, no, no....God will use the fruit to prove your justification when you accepted Him. He doesn't prove your righteousness, He proves your faith with your works of faith.

That's because there is an accuser and he says you do not have a right to go to heaven. So Christ uses your fruit (again, not to prove your righteousness) but to prove your faith in Him is genuine and not a sham.

Legalism is a sham. Self-righteousness is a sham. Such works Jesus can not defend against and therefore you will stand before the law without Christ's robe.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Did Abraham have works of faith? Sure.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Keep in mind Abraham was already justified by faith when he received Christ. So his work of faith didn't justify him, rather it proved his faith.

[Robert]

Abraham was not justified under the law. Abraham's work of faith had nothing to do with the law. As a matter of fact the law says "you shall not kill", yet Abraham was about to do just that.

[Gibs]

God knew what he was doing didn't he! Robert if God had told you to the same as Abraham what would you have attempted to do? Abe was just being tested. Would you have passed the test as Abraham did?

Of course you would have.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

Hmmm... I would hope that anything the Bible says is and has always been available for use in evangelism! If we are waiting for a PhD to give us permission, we're in big trouble.

YES !!!

As if...

[olger]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

there is only ONE Gospel

Yes, and I'm afraid none of you know it.

[Robert]

You know, all you do is smart off. I guess that's all you have to offer?

[Robert]

God knew what he was doing didn't he!

That would be, "God knew what he was doing didn't he?"

Yes, maybe you can explain why God tested Abraham in this way. I can tell you this, it was never God's intent that Abraham hurt Issac in any way.

I'm all ears....Waiting!

[Gibs]

That's right, God knew Abraham would obey Him and knew He would need to stop Him. For sure He did not intend to allow it to happen. Abe passed the test. If God would have allowed him to continue and do as He commanded He God would have been guilty. He would have given up His son as God was to give His Son. Abraham then understood the plan in a much greater reality.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

Abraham was not justified under the law. Abraham's work of faith had nothing to do with the law. As a matter of fact the law says "you shall not kill", yet Abraham was about to do just that.

If you think that James 2 is saying "Abraham was justified by his work of rebellion against God's Law" then I think you are missing something big in the NT.

Starting with "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

James is very adamant that rebellion against the Law of God "is a bad thing" as we see in James 4 and James 2.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

So if we "bend" James 2 so that "works" means "works of rebellion against the Word of God - the Law of God"

then these texts --

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

--those texts turn into something entirely unholy if one is able to bend the bible to such an extreme.

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

I still don't know what the SDA theologians at Andrews don't believe is true about Rom.2?

[phkrause]

So if we "bend" James 2 so that "works" means "works of rebellion against the Word of God - the Law of God"

then these texts --

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

--those texts turn into something entirely unholy if one is able to bend the bible to such an extreme.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Maybe I'm dense; but I don't see how any man can determine what is 'true" or "false" about scripture. Furthermore, how can a man invalidate one chapter of scriptural book while holding all the other chapters valid? Romans was not originally written in chapters and verses - those were added later. If one reads Romans contextually, Paul is essentially making the argument that no one is righteous - that our righteousness is as filthy rags; and it is grace through our faith in Jesus Christ that saves us Romans 5: 1-11 states:

Therefore, since we have been JUSTIFIED THROUGH FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have GAINED ACCESS TO THIS FAITH INTO THIS GRACE in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. You see, at just the right time, WHEN WE WERE STILL POWERLESS, CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, WHILE WE WERE GOD'S ENEMIES, WE WERE RECONCILED TO HIM through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

I don't have any idea who George Knight or these other author's are; but IMO no man has the wisdom to say what part of scripture is right or wrong - nor does and religious institution (e.g. Andrews) As far as human books go - treat them like a Cornish Game Hen - eat the meat and spit out the bones.

I may not always agree with how Robert presents his case (although I usually agree with his case), but I don't see where he said that Abraham was justified by his works of rebellion; and then carrying that over to inferring he feels that James is talking about works of rebellion demonstrating our faith. Am I missing something?

[Gibs]

Maybe I'm dense; but I don't see how any man can determine what is 'true" or "false" about scripture.

JoeMo,

I think you did not mean that statement above as it appears.

I must give you a chance to amend that one.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

I guess that's all you have to offer?

Friend, Robert. When you call decent members of the Adventist church "legalists" because they don't see things quite your way, that is "doing it wrong" in my opinion.

And when you advertise yourself as the only one who understands the gospel (#575296) that too is a problem. Do you really believe such outlandish statements? What am I missing?

Rejoice always,

`G