Football and Adventism

[Johann]

Would you compare a discussion like this, where it seems at times like a great competition to win the game, that this is out of line? Or could this benefit some of us?

Would we be able to have a discussion where all agree with everything?

[Woody]

Be careful there CoA. I've been told by reliable sources - if you blow your nose too hard that you brains can come out. So - do be careful. We need your voice of reason around here.

[Guest]

The balance is in the motives and the choice of sports. A person, a non-competitive one, can play baseball(softball) without inflicting pain on another person. It's also, at the non-competitive level a good source of exercise.

I don't see a problem with playing non-contact sports if it can be done non-competitively. Learning teamwork is a good thing, but that can also be learned outside of sports.

The problem with football, especially tackle football, is that it glorifies violence and competitiveness to the point of doing anything, and I mean anything, to win, especially at the level of the organized televised game. The game glorifies those who are the most violent and most competitive, which is at the total opposite spectrum of everything the Bible teaches us about Christ and His character. Thus it is the definition of sin. Paul tells us in ITimothy 5:22 to not be partakers of other men's sins and watching, getting involved emotionally in as a spectator, is partaking of their sins for we, as fans, are approving of their sins.

Both the Bible and the SOP tell us that we are to have nothing to do with anything that opposes the principles of God's kingdoms and Christ's character, thus activities like organized tackle football that actively promote principles that are at war with God's government are things we should actively avoid.

I have to say that this is a big thing for me to give up. It's not easy in any way, shape, or form. For me, growing up, sports was the one place I could find respect, both self-respect and respect from others, because of how good I was at all sports. I was a jock, a gym rat, plain and simple. I was good enough that I competed successfully at one level ahead of where I in school. In grade school I competed against high school kids. In high school I competed against college kids. I wasn't one of the last ones chosen in pickup games against those a level ahead of me either. I was one of the first ones chosen. College kids came looking for me to play on their team. It was a pretty heady thing for a kid with no self image, and also for a guy in his late thirties and early forties too. Even at that age kids in intramural A league teams in college asked me to play on their teams, and in pickup games. Even at that age I was a gym rat. I still spent every spare moment in the gym playing basketball.

However, this, watching football as one of my last connections to the days when I was competitively active in sports, is something that God tells me I must give up when I study the SOP and the Bible. Competitive, violent sports are against the relevant principles taught in both places, and if I want a saving relationship with God I must give up all that leads me away from Him. Now, I say I must give them up, but all of us need to give up anything that teaches principles in opposition to God's kingdom if we want to reach heaven.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. This goes along with everything the Bible and SOP teaches on RbyF and sanctification. Not that we must grit our teeth and obey, but that we must examine ourselves, our motives and actions, and anything we find in any area of our life that is against the principles of God's kingdom, we must ask Him to change our hearts in those areas. If we don't want to give up something we need to ask Him to make us willing to surrender it, and go on believing that He is going to do exactly that, and in so doing surrender what we know is against God's kingdom, for God's kingdom is within us, and we cannot worship God with a divided heart.

So, you asked for balance, and I gave it to you. And I'm probably considered one of the most unpopular and vociferous supporters of the "anti" football "side".

What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing this, Joeb. I can relate. We all have something that will keep us out of the kingdom, if we don't allow God to have it. The devil makes a lot of hay, driving little wedges between us and God. Untold millions will be lost because of it. But they are wedges that we allow.

[JoeMo]

Johann,

Quote:

Would we be able to have a discussion where all agree with everything?

That would be a very short discussion if we all agreed!

Seriously, I don't mind discussion of different opinions, philosophies, and theologies - I kinda like learning other people's perspectives on things. It crosses the line when people begin to pass judgement on others or become personally insulting. Unfortunately, I am finding that my fellow believers are more apt to "bully" others here than are the non-believers. Speaks a lot about the love between us, huh?

[joeb]

What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing this, Joeb. I can relate. We all have something that will keep us out of the kingdom, if we don't allow God to have it. The devil makes a lot of hay, driving little wedges between us and God. Untold millions will be lost because of it. But they are wedges that we allow.

They are the wedges we allow because we aren't really 100% committed to living a life that pleases God. We like having a divided heart because it pleases our sinful nature, and the devil is always pleased to tell us that these "little" things don't matter. He likes telling us things we want to hear, and we dislike hearing things that cut us to the quick. Maybe that's why we SDAs aren't really the "people of the Book" anymore, as "the word of God is sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

[Guest]

It's "the details" that you keep missing.

I can't help it, that's funny.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing this, Joeb. I can relate. We all have something that will keep us out of the kingdom, if we don't allow God to have it. The devil makes a lot of hay, driving little wedges between us and God. Untold millions will be lost because of it. But they are wedges that we allow.

They are the wedges we allow because we aren't really 100% committed to living a life that pleases God. We like having a divided heart because it pleases our sinful nature, and the devil is always pleased to tell us that these "little" things don't matter. He likes telling us things we want to hear, and we dislike hearing things that cut us to the quick. Maybe that's why we SDAs aren't really the "people of the Book" anymore, as "the word of God is sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

You're right about all of that.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

They are the wedges we allow because we aren't really 100% committed to living a life that pleases God.

Are we called to "please" God by perfectly submitting to His Law "or else"? I've tried that; and I never considered myself "good enough". There was always something I wasn't doing as well as I could - I never "perfectly" kept a Sabbath; I have lustful thoughts, I think terrible things about some people when I'm angry. Just last week I ate pork cuz it was in some beans I ate. I deserve to go to hell. I'm just not "good enough".

Then I learned to "trust" God. He says His grace is sufficient - I trust Him on that. He tells me I am His child (second favorite behind Jesus, I think!) - I trust Him on that. He says that He so loved the worls that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him will not perish; but have eternal life - I believe in Him, so i trust Him on that.

He says i am reconciled to Him by the death of His Son. I trust Him on that. God is so good! He loves me the way I am! I unconsiously respond by submitting to His love and grace - not only for redemption, but for power to overcome. Unless I quit trusting Him, I am now fit for heaven. We overcome because we have grace - we don't overcome in order to qualify for grace. God wants a child; He doesn't want a submissive robot.

[Guest]

So we should not be submissive then?

[joeb]

Quote:

They are the wedges we allow because we aren't really 100% committed to living a life that pleases God.

Are we called to "please" God by perfectly submitting to His Law "or else"? I've tried that; and I never considered myself "good enough". There was always something I wasn't doing as well as I could - I never "perfectly" kept a Sabbath; I have lustful thoughts, I think terrible things about some people when I'm angry. Just last week I ate pork cuz it was in some beans I ate. I deserve to go to hell. I'm just not "good enough".

Then I learned to "trust" God. He says His grace is sufficient - I trust Him on that. He tells me I am His child (second favorite behind Jesus, I think!) - I trust Him on that. He says that He so loved the worls that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him will not perish; but have eternal life - I believe in Him, so i trust Him on that.

He says i am reconciled to Him by the death of His Son. I trust Him on that. God is so good! He loves me the way I am! I unconsiously respond by submitting to His love and grace - not only for redemption, but for power to overcome. Unless I quit trusting Him, I am now fit for heaven. We overcome because we have grace - we don't overcome in order to qualify for grace. God wants a child; He doesn't want a submissive robot.

I think you have had the same struggle many of us have had. I've been right where you are now. I have thought exactly the same thing. However, both the Bible and SOP tell me I was wrong. God demands perfect obedience to His law. If anything less than perfect obedience was OK Christ would not have had to suffer and die for us.

What I've found that clears up the problem for me is a correct understanding of RbyF. It's not something I ran across without a serious amount of prayer and study, but it is the most liberating, encouraging thing I've ever learned. A good place to start to learn what I've found is the "Lessons from the Desire of Ages" thread I started and Righteousness by Faith thread I started too.

Anything you want to discuss that you have issues with or questions about I'll be more than happy to discuss with you. Post your questions to the respective thread and I'll answer you there.

[CoAspen]

So... Woody, does this mean I don't get a list? With all of these pointing out peoples faults, I'm concerned that I am not doing enough navel gazing.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Then I learned to "trust" God. He says His grace is sufficient - I trust Him on that. He tells me I am His child (second favorite behind Jesus, I think!) - I trust Him on that. He says that He so loved the worls that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him will not perish; but have eternal life - I believe in Him, so i trust Him on that.

He says i am reconciled to Him by the death of His Son. I trust Him on that. God is so good! He loves me the way I am! I unconsiously respond by submitting to His love and grace - not only for redemption, but for power to overcome. Unless I quit trusting Him, I am now fit for heaven. We overcome because we have grace - we don't overcome in order to qualify for grace.

I think you have answered the question...those that have an hear...and all that!

[Guest]

Who is pointing out people's faults? I haven't seen anybody doing that. That would be bad, if it were true.

[JoeMo]

CoAspen,

I'm kinda thinking you could just surf through some other threads (even this one) and find a lot of "list" material; and you would have only just begun. If you want to make a comprehensive list, I hope your computer has a big hard drive.

[Woody]

Quote:

Then I learned to "trust" God. He says His grace is sufficient - I trust Him on that. He tells me I am His child (second favorite behind Jesus, I think!) - I trust Him on that. He says that He so loved the worls that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him will not perish; but have eternal life - I believe in Him, so i trust Him on that.

He says i am reconciled to Him by the death of His Son. I trust Him on that. God is so good! He loves me the way I am! I unconsiously respond by submitting to His love and grace - not only for redemption, but for power to overcome. Unless I quit trusting Him, I am now fit for heaven. We overcome because we have grace - we don't overcome in order to qualify for grace.

I think you have answered the question...those that have an hear...and all that!

One for JoeMO

and

One for CoA

[CoAspen]

[BobRyan]

Quote:

They are the wedges we allow because we aren't really 100% committed to living a life that pleases God.

Are we called to "please" God by perfectly submitting to His Law "or else"? I've tried that; and I never considered myself "good enough". There was always something I wasn't doing as well as I could - I never "perfectly" kept a Sabbath; I have lustful thoughts, I think terrible things about some people when I'm angry. Just last week I ate pork cuz it was in some beans I ate. I deserve to go to hell. I'm just not "good enough".

Then I learned to "trust" God. He says His grace is sufficient - I trust Him on that. He tells me I am His child (second favorite behind Jesus, I think!) - I trust Him on that. He says that He so loved the worls that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him will not perish; but have eternal life - I believe in Him, so i trust Him on that.

He says i am reconciled to Him by the death of His Son. I trust Him on that. God is so good! He loves me the way I am! I unconsiously respond by submitting to His love and grace - not only for redemption, but for power to overcome. Unless I quit trusting Him, I am now fit for heaven. We overcome because we have grace - we don't overcome in order to qualify for grace. God wants a child; He doesn't want a submissive robot.

Certainly we can agree that the born again person is the one with victory over sin - it is not the lost person that is able to do that on their own. It is the saved saint with "Christ in me" - the one who says "The life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God" as Paul explains it.

And in 1John 3:1-14 you will find as strong a statement on the subject of victory over sin as you might ever wish to read.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

CoAspen,

I'm kinda thinking you could just surf through some other threads (even this one) and find a lot of "list" material; and you would have only just begun. If you want to make a comprehensive list, I hope your computer has a big hard drive.

love yer ball n chain there JoeMo.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

When I read the above - I am confronted by the conviction that many SDAs have never even seen this material. Some who have seen it choose to rebel against it - but most do not know it even exists so they may imagine they can make up whatever they wish on this topic.

But in 2Peter 1:20-21 God says that prophecy works like this - the prophets are "moved by the Holy Spirit and speak from God" thus "NO prophecy" is a matter of one's own interpretation - for as James 2 says "HE WHO SAID do not commit adultery ALSO SAID do not murder". That is the same God that inspired Isaiah 30:8-14. (for those inclined to read the Word of God on that subject).

And for those who have tested the writings of Ellen White and found her to be a true prophet and not a false prophet - the quote above about the work of Satan in devising and yes "inventing" things like football and horse racing - and where lives are thrown way - lives for whom Christ died.

Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. I think some today - struggle with that idea - yes even among Seventh-day Adventist.

Jude 4:4 says that love of the world is at war with love for God.

And given EW 71 - that seems like a very real problem.

[Woody]

I confess - I enjoy a good game of football and will continue to do so till the day I die or can no longer see or hear.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

...or simply mock God's message itself

Again - I looked all through the Bible and never say a single reference to any of the allegedly "condemned" activities. I think we need to make a distinction between what God condemned in scripture with what EGW claims God condemned in the SoP. The authority of one is way higher than the authority of the other. I just can't make myself call the SoP the word of God in the same sense as I call scripture the Word of God. I don't think EGW equated them, either.

[Woody]

Good Point JoeMo.

I see a certain few people mocking God. And speaking for God -

But it ain't those who enjoy a good game of football.

[Gibs]

Jg 16:25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set him between the pillars.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Instead of all that posturing and hyperbole, wouldn't it be easier to just show an example? If what you say is true, it should be the easiest thing in the world.

In fact, I would have done that first, without all the talk.

RLH,

I didn't mean what I said seriously; I was being somewhat sarcastic. I would have posted a "sarcasm llama" smiley face; but there is not one in the C/A "smiley bank"; so I had to settle for a ball and chain.

[Guest]

It's ok...

I deleted my post, in order to let it rest, and go on.