Football and Adventism

[Woody]

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Gal 6 says "God is not mocked"

True...But people are.

it is really kind of you to notice.

Well done!

[JoeMo]

Dear Club Members,

I would like to propose that it is discriminatory to limit club membership to heretics and infidels. To be fair, we must open it up to pagans, atheists and true believers - as long as they behave themselves. Oh yeah - and bring food.

[M. T. Cross]

Ummmm.......... well since it was founded by a pagan, pretty hard to keep us out.

As long as you provide food, don't hate hockey, and have an open heart and mind its all good.

[Woody]

Ummmm.......... well since it was founded by a pagan, pretty hard to keep us out.

As long as you provide food, don't hate hockey, and have an open heart and mind its all good.

[LoneRanger]

Um...What EmptyCross said.

Especially the food.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall you not eat, and their carcass shall you not touch; they are unclean to you.

Actually I do believe that that text is referring to a dead carcass. Just my .10 worth of opinion.

Good point - the Sanctuary had the unclean animal "Porpoise" skin as a covering and was not considered unclean.

The statements that God gave to Ellen White on this subject are pretty hard for Seventh-day Adventists to ignore.

(But as in every group - there will always be some who will manage that)

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

To me - the reason that I personally believe that Jesus would play football is that football is a demonstration of what life is like. The whole focus in life is avoiding conflict and violence. At times a little violence is needed - such as when Jesus ordered wars. But I do my best to do as football is all about - avoid those who are after you and just score.

[phkrause]

I don't agree with you at all Woody. But an interesting thought none the less.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

When I read the above - I am confronted by the conviction that many SDAs have never even seen this material. Some who have seen it choose to rebel against it - but most do not know it even exists so they may imagine they can make up whatever they wish on this topic.

But in 2Peter 1:20-21 God says that prophecy works like this - the prophets are "moved by the Holy Spirit and speak from God" thus "NO prophecy" is a matter of one's own interpretation - for as James 2 says "HE WHO SAID do not commit adultery ALSO SAID do not murder". That is the same God that inspired Isaiah 30:8-14. (for those inclined to read the Word of God on that subject).

And for those who have tested the writings of Ellen White and found her to be a true prophet and not a false prophet - the quote above about the work of Satan in devising and yes "inventing" things like football and horse racing - and where lives are thrown way - lives for whom Christ died.

Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. I think some today - struggle with that idea - yes even among Seventh-day Adventist.

Jude 4:4 says that love of the world is at war with love for God.

And given EW 71 - that seems like a very real problem.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

I don't agree with you at all Woody. But an interesting thought none the less.

LOL. Love it. Gave me a good chuckle pk. Yeah - I keep hoping. I try to throw something out there in hopes it will stick. :)

[BobRyan]

It's "the details" that you keep missing.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

The thread that never dies.

[joeb]

To me - the reason that I personally believe that Jesus would play football is that football is a demonstration of what life is like. The whole focus in life is avoiding conflict and violence. At times a little violence is needed - such as when Jesus ordered wars. But I do my best to do as football is all about - avoid those who are after you and just score.

I guess if you want to stretch a point far enough you can justify just about anything.

[Guest]

Yep

[Woody]

Quote:

When there is so great reluctance to confess a wrong which is laid open and plain before the erring, it shows that they are controlled by their own untamable, unsanctified natures rather than by the spirit of the gospel of Christ. {5T 343.1}

[Gibs]

The best thing to do with football is kick it so hard it will forever be gone from your life and be of concern no more!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

[BobRyan]

The best thing to do with football is kick it so hard it will forever be gone from your life and be of concern no more!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Amen! :)

[Woody]

I love football. Especially 49ers Football. Go Niners.

(Woody is a lifetime 49rs fan for full disclosure)

[Johann]

Quote:

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

When I read the above - I am confronted by the conviction that many SDAs have never even seen this material. Some who have seen it choose to rebel against it - but most do not know it even exists so they may imagine they can make up whatever they wish on this topic.

But in 2Peter 1:20-21 God says that prophecy works like this - the prophets are "moved by the Holy Spirit and speak from God" thus "NO prophecy" is a matter of one's own interpretation - for as James 2 says "HE WHO SAID do not commit adultery ALSO SAID do not murder". That is the same God that inspired Isaiah 30:8-14. (for those inclined to read the Word of God on that subject).

And for those who have tested the writings of Ellen White and found her to be a true prophet and not a false prophet - the quote above about the work of Satan in devising and yes "inventing" things like football and horse racing - and where lives are thrown way - lives for whom Christ died.

Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. I think some today - struggle with that idea - yes even among Seventh-day Adventist.

Jude 4:4 says that love of the world is at war with love for God.

And given EW 71 - that seems like a very real problem.

in Christ,

Bob

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Quote:

Christ looks upon a world filled with the din of merchandise and trade, with the dishonesty and scheming of buyers and sellers. In their desire to get gain, men have lost sight of the laws of justice and equity. “It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.” Satan has devised a multitude of ways in which to keep men from serving God. He has invented sports and games, into which men enter with such intensity that one would suppose a crown of life was to reward the winner. At the horse races and football matches, which are attended by thousands and thousands of people, lives for which Christ shed His blood are thrown away. What will become of the souls of the men and boys whose lives are thus extinguished? Will they be counted worthy of the redemption which Christ died to secure for them? {RH September 10, 1901, par. 5}

Looking upon these God-dishonoring scenes, Christ asks, “What is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” He calls the attention of men to the nobler world which they have lost from view. He points them to the threshold of heaven, flushed with the glory of the infinite God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 6}

When I read the above - I am confronted by the conviction that many SDAs have never even seen this material. Some who have seen it choose to rebel against it - but most do not know it even exists so they may imagine they can make up whatever they wish on this topic.

But in 2Peter 1:20-21 God says that prophecy works like this - the prophets are "moved by the Holy Spirit and speak from God" thus "NO prophecy" is a matter of one's own interpretation - for as James 2 says "HE WHO SAID do not commit adultery ALSO SAID do not murder". That is the same God that inspired Isaiah 30:8-14. (for those inclined to read the Word of God on that subject).

And for those who have tested the writings of Ellen White and found her to be a true prophet and not a false prophet - the quote above about the work of Satan in devising and yes "inventing" things like football and horse racing - and where lives are thrown way - lives for whom Christ died.

Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters. I think some today - struggle with that idea - yes even among Seventh-day Adventist.

Jude 4:4 says that love of the world is at war with love for God.

And given EW 71 - that seems like a very real problem.

in Christ,

Bob

Where is the balance? Does it horrify us when we read what M L Andreasen experienced when he visited Ellen White in her home in 1909?

Quote:

During the week the children (Ellen's grandchildren) had pulled him (MLA)out to see Grandmother's new calf. . . They told him how little Arthur had tried to count the buttons down the front of Grandmother's dress. . . For a short while in the afternoon after school, before time for chores, M. L. had heard the children playing baseball in the large pasture.

If you have been to Elmshaven you will know where this was at.

The balance is in the motives and the choice of sports. A person, a non-competitive one, can play baseball(softball) without inflicting pain on another person. It's also, at the non-competitive level a good source of exercise.

I don't see a problem with playing non-contact sports if it can be done non-competitively. Learning teamwork is a good thing, but that can also be learned outside of sports.

The problem with football, especially tackle football, is that it glorifies violence and competitiveness to the point of doing anything, and I mean anything, to win, especially at the level of the organized televised game. The game glorifies those who are the most violent and most competitive, which is at the total opposite spectrum of everything the Bible teaches us about Christ and His character. Thus it is the definition of sin. Paul tells us in ITimothy 5:22 to not be partakers of other men's sins and watching, getting involved emotionally in as a spectator, is partaking of their sins for we, as fans, are approving of their sins.

Both the Bible and the SOP tell us that we are to have nothing to do with anything that opposes the principles of God's kingdoms and Christ's character, thus activities like organized tackle football that actively promote principles that are at war with God's government are things we should actively avoid.

I have to say that this is a big thing for me to give up. It's not easy in any way, shape, or form. For me, growing up, sports was the one place I could find respect, both self-respect and respect from others, because of how good I was at all sports. I was a jock, a gym rat, plain and simple. I was good enough that I competed successfully at one level ahead of where I in school. In grade school I competed against high school kids. In high school I competed against college kids. I wasn't one of the last ones chosen in pickup games against those a level ahead of me either. I was one of the first ones chosen. College kids came looking for me to play on their team. It was a pretty heady thing for a kid with no self image, and also for a guy in his late thirties and early forties too. Even at that age kids in intramural A league teams in college asked me to play on their teams, and in pickup games. Even at that age I was a gym rat. I still spent every spare moment in the gym playing basketball.

However, this, watching football as one of my last connections to the days when I was competitively active in sports, is something that God tells me I must give up when I study the SOP and the Bible. Competitive, violent sports are against the relevant principles taught in both places, and if I want a saving relationship with God I must give up all that leads me away from Him. Now, I say I must give them up, but all of us need to give up anything that teaches principles in opposition to God's kingdom if we want to reach heaven.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. This goes along with everything the Bible and SOP teaches on RbyF and sanctification. Not that we must grit our teeth and obey, but that we must examine ourselves, our motives and actions, and anything we find in any area of our life that is against the principles of God's kingdom, we must ask Him to change our hearts in those areas. If we don't want to give up something we need to ask Him to make us willing to surrender it, and go on believing that He is going to do exactly that, and in so doing surrender what we know is against God's kingdom, for God's kingdom is within us, and we cannot worship God with a divided heart.

So, you asked for balance, and I gave it to you. And I'm probably considered one of the most unpopular and vociferous supporters of the "anti" football "side".

[Woody]

Quote:

M. L. had heard the children playing baseball in the large pasture.

And might I add - if football had been as popular as it is now - I'm sure they would have been playing football.

[joeb]

Quote:

M. L. had heard the children playing baseball in the large pasture.

And might I add - if football had been as popular as it is now - I'm sure they would have been playing football.

As she's not around any longer to say what she would have done don't you think saying what you're "sure" she would have done isn't stepping across the line?

[CoAspen]

Hey Woody,

Maybe you could 'research' and make us a list of 'approved' games.

Board games should be on your list, even scrabble, monopoly life, etc., since they all are about fun and winning. I hope the list is not to exhaustive!! While your at it, please, if you will, all of the outdoor games where there is competion and winning involved. After all these years of thread after thread about what I can't do, thought I would just give up trying to enjoy life and concentrate on all of the can'ts....sure to get into heaven...I think...at least the Jewish Religious leaders did...they had a pretty extensive list of can'ts. Sure would be a help to me and I'm sure to many others.

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