Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[Stan]

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

[Igakusei]

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

Can I ask for a citation?

[Gail]

Worship is a subject about the heart (not physical heart, but spiritual sense) of a person. How can that be proven or tangibly shown other than through experience?

[Igakusei]

That's sort of my point: Stan made a claim about evidence, so I asked to see it. I have several years of experience working in scientific research laboratories, and in that time I've learned a few things about what makes good studies good and bad studies bad. Every study has flaws, often depending on the context of how their findings are extrapolated by people using them, and understanding the basic principles of study design and application is fundamentally important to people who want to live their lives by evidence-based principles. You can find studies in peer-reviewed journals that seem to support almost anything, so there's really no way around developing those skills unless you're only interested in looking for reassurance that your beliefs are correct.

[Gail]

What I'm thinking is that spiritual matters might not be test-able, either now with what we have or ever. Maybe it's beyond the sphere of current scientific testing.

That would include not only heart matters as relating to religion, but might also applied to healing methods which incorporate the spiritual realm, for instance.

Does that mean that it doesn't exist, or that it is outside the realm of current scientific verification?

If so, that does not make it a lie; more like not yet discovered in a way that science can monitor.

[phkrause]

What I'm thinking is that spiritual matters might not be test-able, either now with what we have or ever. Maybe it's beyond the sphere of current scientific testing.

That would include not only heart matters as relating to religion, but might also applied to healing methods which incorporate the spiritual realm, for instance.

Does that mean that it doesn't exist, or that it is outside the realm of current scientific verification?

If so, that does not make it a lie; more like not yet discovered in a way that science can monitor.

I definitely agree Gail, spirituality is in the eye of the beholder, at least to some. If I see lots of infighting, what I'm I to think! Its one thing to have a discussion per say but when we criticize each other for our beliefs, how does that look to someone looking for answers? As far as difference's in opinion, well that will always be par for the course.

[Bravus]

I think Igakusei's point, if I may venture to speak for him, is that the thread is about someone who has not had a 'God experience'. How would one attract such a person? Perhaps partly through simple friendliness, but the point is that if one makes claims - say, 'God heals sickness when we pray' - a believer will take them on faith, but a person who is not yet a believer is likely to want to see evidence. Gail, you seem to be saying 'the evidence cannot be shown to someone who is not a believer'. Where does that put us in relation to Stan's opening question?

[Gail]

I know that is how it sounds, but I don't have the answer as to the "why".

I don't know why it comes so easily to one and not to another. People refer to the "spirit" of a thing, like a play, or a presidential speech. Certainly most of us have a sense why happiness comes as a result of being out in nature or falling in love.

Perhaps we are being too narrow in our sights. Those who are said to not have a God experience might indeed BE having a God experience but don't see their spirituality as a God experience.

Is there such a thing as a person without spiritual capability? I don't like to think so.

[Gail]

One thing I really like about non-religious people, I guess maybe I'm talking non or ex-SDA here:

If they were raised in the church and had a traumatic experience there, especially as children, they rebelled at it. They may have rejected all religion because of it, but they were not wrong to reject the abuse. My idea of what God is like is not like what they suffered and that trauma should never have happened.

I envision God also as rejecting that abuse, in His plan for families. "And the work of righteousness shall be peace," says Isaiah 32:17. I also find repulsive that the Catholic church has to face charges of child sexual abuse. I mean, it's good that the guilty are being called to account; I just find it sad that the abuse happened. And the Catholics are not the only religious guilty by any means.

What I'm trying to say is that the outrage of those who come from abusive upbringings is justified. And it is an attribute that I have come to expect also from what I have learned of God.

Another thing I admire from them is honesty, when they just admit where they are at, that they are not agreeing or accepting or understanding the beliefs of their church circle. You would think that honesty is a good thing, God-wise, to be preferred over the hypocrisy of membership or attendance by someone whose heart is not there. Jesus spent a good part of His time condemning religiosity in preference for truth.

When I hear of Muslims condemning corruption in society or in Christianity, I agree with them on that, too. Isaiah talks about false sacrifices. I see that as the same principle.

So personally, while I may not agree on whether or not there is a God, I don't want to totally condemn the ungodly. In some cases they are better church people than those on the membership rosters.

I think that if Christians were more like Jesus there would be different dynamics.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

Can I ask for a citation?

I can't give you a quote, but I can show evidence in human nature. It's that we are all searching for "something". There's a part of us that we all seem to fill with different things, but it's a common experience.

Some people worship money. They think of nothing else. The desire for it rules their lives. Others chase hedonism. The look to lose themselves in finding pleasure. Others look to fill that spot with being "perfect" at something: sports, their looks, work, our hobbies, etc....

We're all looking for that "something" that gives us meaning in our lives, that makes us of value in our own paradigms.

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

Can I ask for a citation?

I think if you ask a social anthropologist they would tell you that is one of the common denominators in all civilizations.

[Daryl]

I agree that humans are wired to worship something.

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

I think if you ask a social anthropologist they would tell you that is one of the common denominators in all civilizations.

[M. T. Cross]

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

I think unless you are in some sort of ministry, for the most part you will never know if someone has or has not had that kind of experience. But if it does somehow come up, I think just respecting where they are at, what their beliefs are and what their experience is. Kind of like you would hope they would do for you.

I think its pretty easy to figure out in a hurry if someone is going to mock what you have to say, in which case it probably makes more sense for everyone to just keep quiet about your experiences.

My personal opinion is that for the most part personal experiences with any possible deity are just that - personal. They are for you, for your experiece. I can only think of 3 people in the whole world that know fully the things I have experienced. I would never ever in a million years share them here, or with anyone that has any inclination to mock them

[Igakusei]

I can't give you a quote, but I can show evidence in human nature. It's that we are all searching for "something". There's a part of us that we all seem to fill with different things, but it's a common experience.

Some people worship money. They think of nothing else. The desire for it rules their lives. Others chase hedonism. The look to lose themselves in finding pleasure. Others look to fill that spot with being "perfect" at something: sports, their looks, work, our hobbies, etc....

We're all looking for that "something" that gives us meaning in our lives, that makes us of value in our own paradigms.

How is the observation that humans tend to seek meaning and fulfillment evidence that we are wired to "worship?"

I find meaning and fulfillment in learning about the natural world, about the humanities, about other areas of human thought like economics, philosophy, religion (not in the same way you do!), history, and even learning itself. I find it in loving and being loved, in watching my son grow, in laughter, in applying my knowledge of modern medicine to my patients, in daydreaming about the great unknowns, in contemplating how my mind works and what it means to be conscious, and in millions other things that fill and color my world. I do not, and I have never, found meaning and fulfillment in worshipping a deity that routinely fails to live up to every single promise his followers claim for him, and whose followers often remain severely intellectually and emotionally stunted by their dogmatic adherence to often badly outmoded beliefs. I find the entire concept of worship off-putting because the meaning I find in life is tied to tangible aspects of my reality, and not defined in relation to imaginary beings whose characteristics no two people can agree upon.

The fundamental aspect of human nature you're referring to is not the desire to worship, it's the sense of curiosity and need for self-actualization that many people happen to fill with religious worship.

[Igakusei]

I think if you ask a social anthropologist they would tell you that is one of the common denominators in all civilizations.

Though I very much doubt many of them will agree that the reason religions are common denominators of prescientific civilizations is that we're wired to worship something. The assertion that people are wired to worship something and that if it's not God it'll be money, sex, or some other typical vice is a lie often repeated from the pulpit, but one that you still haven't provided any evidence for.

[Igakusei]

What I'm thinking is that spiritual matters might not be test-able, either now with what we have or ever. Maybe it's beyond the sphere of current scientific testing.

I was only responding to Stan's assertion that good evidence exists for us being 'wired' to worship. It sounds like a fairly testable claim given most definitions for 'worship,' and given that Stan claims good evidence exists, I think it's reasonable for me to ask for it.

[BobRyan]

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

Good point.

In John 16 we are told that God the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - He does not just convict those who are now Christians.

And in Romans 1 Paul says "they are without excuse" who reject God for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made".

In John 12:32 Christ said "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me".

So our part in this is very small. It is to follow as the Lord leads and as the Lord provides doors of opportunity to "speak boldly as we ought" (to quote Paul).

Yet we are told in Colosians 4 that our words are to be seasoned with salt so that we might no how to respond to each person with a word.

Notice that the text does not say that the Gospel can be presented in such a way that no one will take offense at the Rock of offense, in such a way that no one will object (and that strongly) to the point of stoning Paul and chasing the Christians out of some of those towns in the book of Acts.

There was war in heaven.

There will be strife between the servants of God and those who serve Him not from time to time. But as far as it resides within us in our proclamation of the "Come out of her my People" message for these last days - we are to "be at peace with all mankind".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Stan

I think if you ask a social anthropologist they would tell you that is one of the common denominators in all civilizations.

Though I very much doubt many of them will agree that the reason religions are common denominators of prescientific civilizations is that we're wired to worship something.

Is it your idea that after the invention of the light bulb there were more atheists than Christians in Europe and North America?

After the invention of solid state circuitry - is that when you might suppose that there were more atheists in Europe and North America than Christians?

If so - how did you come to that conclusion?

in Christ,

Bob

[Igakusei]

Is it your idea that after the invention of the light bulb there were more atheists than Christians in Europe and North America?

After the invention of solid state circuitry - is that when you might suppose that there were more atheists in Europe and North America than Christians?

It's certainly a stretch to call it a common denominator at this present point in time, given that the phrase "common denominator" seems to imply that non-religious entities are so few and far between that they needn't be considered in any calculations... so I'm not sure what your actual point is except to be disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable. The enlightenment strikes me as a reasonable place to stop calling religion a common denominator, but a good argument might be made for going at least as far back as Socrates. Maybe. I dunno, I'm not a historian. What's your point again?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Is it your idea that after the invention of the light bulb there were more atheists than Christians in Europe and North America?

After the invention of solid state circuitry - is that when you might suppose that there were more atheists in Europe and North America than Christians?

It's certainly a stretch to call it a common denominator at this present point in time, given that the phrase "common denominator" seems to imply that non-religious entities are so few and far between that they needn't be considered in any calculations... so I'm not sure what your actual point is except to be disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable. The enlightenment strikes me as a reasonable place to stop calling religion a common denominator, but a good argument might be made for going at least as far back as Socrates. Maybe. I dunno, I'm not a historian. What's your point again?

[Igakusei]

There's only one person in this thread who thinks 50% is a figure that means anything at all. "theism" vs. "atheism" isn't even a very useful poll to use in the context of this discussion, because it tends to pick up a lot of "theists" who don't really practice much of the religion they claim.

If all you're going to do is troll by looking for things to disagree with even if they're completely and totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread, then please go away. I'm interested in having some interesting, mutually beneficial dialogue, not in arguing about useful ways to assess levels of religious belief with someone who seems to be interested only in finding things to bicker about.

[cricket]

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

Not sure what to do, Stan. I'd say "pray for them in the privacy of your own home," but then again sometimes I think it's wrong to pray for people who haven't asked for prayer. To me, it doesn't really matter if people mock my experiences--they're not me and they don't know what I've gone through.

As for being wired to worship...that's kind of lost on me too. I still haven't quite figured out what it means to corporately worship and private worship is nearly as bizarre to me. I know how to thank God, and I know how to pray to Him, but I don't know what worship really means.

Honest. Open. Raw answer.

[Planey]

As for being wired to worship...that's kind of lost on me too. I still haven't quite figured out what it means to corporately worship and private worship is nearly as bizarre to me. I know how to thank God, and I know how to pray to Him, but I don't know what worship really means.

This is so much my experience as well.

Looking forward to the replies.

Thanks, cricket.

Graeme

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: Stan

I think if you ask a social anthropologist they would tell you that is one of the common denominators in all civilizations.

Though I very much doubt many of them will agree that the reason religions are common denominators of prescientific civilizations is that we're wired to worship something. The assertion that people are wired to worship something and that if it's not God it'll be money, sex, or some other typical vice is a lie often repeated from the pulpit, but one that you still haven't provided any evidence for.

You haven't provided evidence that they don't

There have been 'enlightened' folks throughout history who take the same position you do, it is far from being new.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'? Perhaps even if they mock your experience?

Keep in mind, that there is good evidence that humans are 'wired to worship'.

Not sure what to do, Stan. I'd say "pray for them in the privacy of your own home," but then again sometimes I think it's wrong to pray for people who haven't asked for prayer.

God says that He leads the blind via a way that they do not know.

While we were yet sinners - Christ died for us.

God was in Christ reconciling a lost world - to Himself.

The Holy Spirit "convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" not in response to their request - but pro-actively.

To pray for the lost is not at all out of line with being in harmony with God's own actions, mission for "God so loved the World that He gave.."

in Christ,

Bob