Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[debbym]

Quote:

You can find studies in peer-reviewed journals that seem to support almost anything, so there's really no way around developing those skills unless you're only interested in looking for reassurance that your beliefs are correct.

We do have serious bias's and prejudices, and the way we are wired influences what we respond to, and we are selective in what we even see to respond to.

I have found that when people are confronted or exposed to something in others they do not understand or know about they tend to ignore it, as though it is not even there.

And we are quite naturally self reinforcing. and we love affirmation or camaraderie, misery loves company.

Human beings are quite an assortment of feelings, experiences, ideas, and relationships.

So when we communicate, it is because we over look a lot of stuff in ourselves and others and pay attention quite selectively and choose to communicate.

As we deal with others, i feel we are primarily dealing with our own reactions to others. there is really so much distance between people. But we are not far from ourselves.

so i do deal with myself. but i don't think i want to say i "deal" with anyone really ever. may i deal with idea's or theories, or situations as they come up. I deal with my responsibilities.

i would according to my belief system love, spiritually love everyone, regardless of who they are, where they have been or where they are headed. but i cannot love who i do not know. yet i can at least be respectful as i get to know anyone.

[Tobiwan]

I look back on all the times I've heard Adventists criticize more primitive religions like the Aztecs for committing human sacrifice as a way of appeasing the gods, apparently oblivious to the observation that their own religion is centered around a god becoming human and being sacrificed to appease the gods.

Who happen to also be himself, somehow. And then he resurrected himself, but still considered the debt paid. Seriously, the whole thing is inane. And immoral.

If that is what happened it would be IMO, immoral too. I once thought along the same lines, that God (wink, wink) had to pay a debt, fee, maybe redeem a coupon, to someone to get me back. A beating was needed for my sins that i had committed, and Jesus paid my debt and also took my beating. I liked the idea of no beating for me, but not so much the thought that a few hours in a cloud hanging on a cross or wrapped in cloth and sleeping in a cave for a few hours would fix everything.

I no longer think that is what He did. I once considered the Judgement as a criminal style case. With me on trial. But now, with the ideas presented in the psalms, I see it as a civil type with me acknowledging I have learned that what God said about sin is true. It hurts, it causes pain, it separates, and it kills. Sin pays a wage, death. God's gift, life.

It makes a big difference what we think went wrong in Heaven and in the Garden. What we think needs to be fixed, and how God is going about fixing the problem. We really have it all wrong.

Jesus did not come to save us from an angry God. God has never been angry with us, not even for the choices we have made. Did not come to take my beating, none will be given. Did not come to pay a debt, none required. He does not hold it against us. He is not "going to get us" for anything we do, even when we openly rebel and resist His wooing us.

on the cross Jesus cried, saying why have you given me up why have you let me go.

He died to show the result.

[cardw]

He died to show the result.

Except there are humans who have suffered quite a bit more than he did and even at the hands of Christians. One simply has to google the inquisition and its tools to find some of the most cruel and inhuman things done to another human. Many of these tortures lasted for days and days.

It's not like we don't know we are going to die.

[fccool]

Quote:

I see it as a civil type with me acknowledging I have learned that what God said about sin is true. It hurts, it causes pain, it separates, and it kills. Sin pays a wage, death. God's gift, life.

... He died to show the result.

Why? It's like killing your child's favorite pet to teach them a lesson about how terrible death is. If God's gift is life, then why do we have to celebrate someone dying? Why do we previously had to kill animals and paint doorways with their blood? It seems a bit extreme to make a point about something so painfully obvious.

The issue with Christian story is the maturity of the message. We are supposed to believe that a perfect being will resort to acts of obscene barbarism to make a point about detrimental behavior. The truth should be painfully obvious. Such mentality is not consistent with an omniscient and all-knowing being. It's more consistent with people's unenlightened and superstitious mentality of that age.

Painting your doorstep with blood of animal sacrifice is ancient superstition. The fact that the story is in the Bible does not make it any less that.

If I told you that to avoid your child's death you have to find a black cat, kill it, and draw a star on your child's door with cat's blood - you may think that I'm a bit out of it. But, reading similar story in the Bible makes perfect sense .

When you remove stigma of the "Word of God", the Bible becomes neither good, nor particularly enlightening. Sure, it contains the acts of kindness and some decent wisdom of the day, but you have to cherry pick and filter the Bible to get to that point.

Any person who thinks that stoning homosexuals in Ancient Israel was a good and noble idea is a bigot. That's why you modern pastors will avoid addressing or even reading these passages at any cost. These expose the absurdity and hypocrisy of the "message of love and mercy". A perfect and omniscient being would not have devised such course of action. It should be fairly obvious from what we know today.

At certain point of time one has to be honest about certain things. Bible is only special because it is revered by default. People are taught to revere it first prior to reading. Remove that cloak of reverence, and you are left with indefensible acts of ancient goat herders who thought that they were chosen by God for a special purpose of explaining the rest of the future and developed world the meaning of life.

It's ridiculous.

[Tobiwan]

I have struggled with many of the same questions about what is recorded in the Book and what we are to get out of it. Thoughts about the reason for what is recorded. I think I understand a little of your frustration. There are no bad questions or students.

There is no doubt that we do not, and have not really taken a good look at the big picture. (we as adventist may be the worst offenders) The collected blood of a cooked lamb on the door posts, of no real value except to show the state of mind of the head of that household. Eve, eating the fruit was evidence of what had already happened in her mind. The battle is for who do you believe, not for what you believe. God was reaching out to them where they were. Not the final encounter. God was keeping His promise to his friend Abraham. God was demonstrating His faithfulness to the watching universe. Not installing a security system. Down the road he set up judges (and invites us to "come, lets reason together") to talk things out. Get to know me. Later people told last Samuel "we want a king", God said "you will not like the result of being like the other nations" God said. " to obey is better , and later "I am tired of your burnt offerings and sacrifices" you do not understand. He took people where they were and tried to bring them to a more full understanding of His goal. A goal in opposition to another being with his agenda and to a better place

We, as a church, really have to admit that the challenge God took of using people may not have been His best plan, and has not often been very successful. He has been and still is being let down time and time again. For generation after generation. Most often by His most vocal supporters, that still do not get it. In many and various ways They have tried to reach us, and bring us to a place where the answers can be found. It appears we like it here and are unwilling to look at the record and ask "what does it mean. refuse to factor in the times and hearers of the words, We are still here and we have failed Them. Like the group of released slaves, the early church, the reformation, the Adventist Church

Cherry picking is only good for picking cherries and for research is as dangerous as the "Key text" method of my list is better then your list. We need to put all the parts together in a fashion that puts God in a good light, and in the research more then likely we will end up with more questions than answers.

[fccool]

Quote:

here is no doubt that we do not, and have not really taken a good look at the big picture.

Ok, I get what you are trying to say, but your version of God does not seem to be very consistent. Let's look at the bigger picture.

First God is willing to work with people's failures and he helps Adam and Eve to adopt to the life on the Earth He has cursed and made it more difficult for them to teach them a lesson.

Then, it seems that God's patience ran out, and he decided to kill all of the animals and people on the planet, except for a few that he kept as moral and upright, who oddly enough decided to get drunk and naked as the first thing he learned from being "upright".

Then God chooses a nation and makes a promise to a person that He knows would do immoral thing for God - kill his own son... which is quite odd in terms of absolute morality and test of faith.

Then we have God fulfilling that promise by endlessly getting upset with the nation of Israel.

Finally God sends himself in flesh, and he is very nice when he is in flesh, actually healing the hopelessly sick and feeding the needy, while the rest of the world has only 1 out of 5 infant surviving birth rate all the way until the invention of modern medicine.

Then God tries to teach people by telling them that he is actually God in human flesh, and they execute him following his own command to kill any prophet who claims to be God.

After that, there's an outpouring of miracles that is recorded in NT by people who follow this relatively small sect of people, until the religion is popularized by means of state sponsored religion and spreads fairly fast from then on.

The God just disappears. No miracles, not people walking around healing leprosy. Nothing, except for promises that some people make and fail (AKA Miller and Camping)

So, what is the bigger picture? Why is God so impatient and patient? Why is God so inconsistent? Would the bigger picture be that it's God of different religious persuasions, and that you actually have to cherry pick the Bible very hard to make God of the Bible look good?

Quote:

Cherry picking is only good for picking cherries and for research is as dangerous as the "Key text" method of my list is better then your list. We need to put all the parts together in a fashion that puts God in a good light, and in the research more then likely we will end up with more questions than answers.

Why, why do we need to put the research that puts the God in good light? Isn't it the very nature of post-hoc rationalization that leads to delusional mindset? Why not look at Biblical God as objectively as one would look at Hitler, for example. I find it very odd when Christians and Jews demonize Hitler for killing 6 million Jews, yet find it great and dandy when Biblical deity floods the whole world, and orders genocides of the nations with unborn children, while punishing people because they spared a man alive.

Again, it just does not seem like the perfect being you are talking about. It seems more like a chauvinistic justification for barbarism some tribal nations engaged in a long time ago, and subsequent modification of the story to build a cult religion. There was an explosion of various religious sects during that time, just like there was an explosion of various religious sects during the time of Miller. I'm sure a more reasonable answer was that God actually directed on of these.

[Gail]

Except there are humans who have suffered quite a bit more than he did and even at the hands of Christians. One simply has to google the inquisition and its tools to find some of the most cruel and inhuman things done to another human. Many of these tortures lasted for days and days.

And that outrages me, too. I agree with you.

[LifeHiscost]

The fact that Lucifer joined others for the purpose of proving God to be less than Love has not made Him any less than love, no matter how many Benedict Arnolds there are in our midst. I choose to believe His Word over His detractors, though sometimes I need to exercise patience while He in love, allows His detractors the free will to choose which master they wish to serve. He who was Love from the beginning and remains so despite those who buy into the lies of the deceiver, or the deceiver whose end purpose is to enslave.

From a forwarded email. The only part I find exception to in the answers of the student are where he said satan came from God. The Bible is clear that Lucifer was made perfect and remained so until iniquity was found in him, which satan chose for himself, apart from any interference by God to stifle satan's freewill.

Quote:

Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?

...

Student : Absolutely, sir.

Professor : Is GOD good ?

Student : Sure.

Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?

Student : Yes.

Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

(Student was silent.)

Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Is satan good ?

Student : No.

Professor: Where does satan come from ?

Student : From … GOD …

Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

Student : Yes.

Professor: So who created evil ?

(Student did not answer.)

Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, who created them ?

(Student had no answer.)

Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?

Student : No, sir.

Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?

Student : No , sir.

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student : Yes.

Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Professor: Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

Professor: Yes.

Student : No, sir. There isn’t.

(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

(The class broke out into laughter. )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

P.S.

I believe you have enjoyed the conversation. And if so, you’ll probably want your friends / colleagues to enjoy the same, won’t you?

Forward this to increase their knowledge … or FAITH.

By the way, that student was EINSTEIN.

God cares!

[Igakusei]

That's pretty much the dumbest story ever.

[LifeHiscost]

That's pretty much the dumbest story ever.

That pretty much the same opinion held by all those outside the ark before an unseen power closed the door to the ark and droplets of some foreign substance that had never been seen before began to fall.

Your choice.

God cares!

[Igakusei]

You know that's just a story, right? It's not even an original Hebrew story, because they borrowed it from the Babylonians.

[John317]

You know that's just a story, right? It's not even an original Hebrew story, because they borrowed it from the Babylonians.

Can you prove that the Genesis record of the Flood was borrowed from the Gilgamesh epic?

What is your strongest evidence for this theory?

I've read both many times.

[Igakusei]

Well first and foremost, they're both myths. Believing that an actual, worldwide, Earth-reshaping flood such as the one inferred by modern creationists happened in recent history requires scientific and archaeological ignorance on a larger scale than that required to believe that the Sun orbits the Earth. I'm not even exaggerating.

That said, discovering which one borrowed from which is a matter of academic interest, and one that I confess I'm not well-versed on. The Gilgamesh epic was written much earlier, and it certainly wouldn't have been the only story the Israelites borrowed from the Babylonians during their captivity if indeed that's what happened.

But wherever the various versions of these stories came from and whatever real events might have inspired the original, the Noah's Ark story as understood and taught by most Adventists was not in any sense a historical event.

[John317]

Well first and foremost, they're both myths.

Sounds like your strongest evidence for believing the Genesis account of the Flood was borrowed from the Gilgamesh Epic is that you believe that they are both "myths."

But you don't know that both are "myths," do you?

Are you using "myths" in opposition to "real"?

In any case, the simple fact that the Gilgameth Epic was written earlier than the Genesis account is no evidence that the Genesis story of the Flood was borrowed from the Gilgamesh story.

It could very well be that both are based on something that actually occurred. In fact, I believe the evidence supports it. Almost all ancient cultures have a story about a Flood that wiped out most of humanity.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Well first and foremost, they're both myths.

Sounds like your strongest evidence for believing the Genesis account of the Flood was borrowed from the Gilgamesh Epic is that you believe that they are both "myths."

But you don't know that both are "myths," do you?

Are you using "myths" in opposition to "real"?

In any case, the simple fact that the Gilgameth Epic was written earlier than the Genesis account is no evidence that the Genesis story of the Flood was borrowed from the Gilgamesh story.

It could very well be that both are based on something that actually occurred. In fact, I believe the evidence supports it. Almost all ancient cultures have a story about a Flood that wiped out most of humanity.

You seem to like to argue the weakest point and ignore the actual mountain of evidence that the flood didn't happen at all.

John, did you read Igakusei's link?

Here it is again for your reference.

Small portion of the mountain of evidence against a worldwide flood.

To believe in the flood requires an incredible amount of intellectual dishonesty or an ego that knows no bounds or a complete lack of understanding of the scientific evidence or some combination of the former.

I can understand how someone can be a theistic evolutionist, but to continue to claim there was a world wide flood is on the order of those who still claim the earth is flat because the Bible says so and all our space programs are clever plots, using special effects, by the devil to deceive us.

[LifeHiscost]

You know that's just a story, right? It's not even an original Hebrew story, because they borrowed it from the Babylonians.

What reasoning would tell me to believe the logic of anyone who has had only a few thousand years of progenitors to rely upon. I have a Father in heaven Who tells me His stories from time immemorial and though I might not understand His reasoning for dealing with others whose background I have little or no knowledge of, I've relied on event after event that has proven beyond shadow of doubt of His love for me, that has saved me from death many times over, some despite my own lack of wise choices, other times while working to the best of my ability to be in concert with His wishes.

God cares!

[Igakusei]

Sounds like your strongest evidence for believing the Genesis account of the Flood was borrowed from the Gilgamesh Epic is that you believe that they are both "myths."

[Igakusei]

What reasoning would tell me to believe the logic of anyone who has had only a few thousand years of progenitors to rely upon. I have a Father in heaven Who tells me His stories from time immemorial and though I might not understand His reasoning for dealing with others whose background I have little or no knowledge of, I've relied on event after event that has proven beyond shadow of doubt of His love for me, that has saved me from death many times over, some despite my own lack of wise choices, other times while working to the best of my ability to be in concert with His wishes.

You can believe whoever you want, but I try not to rely on authorities to do my thinking for me whenever possible. I don't believe the creation and flood stories because it's extremely obvious given what we've learned about reality that those stories simply do not describe a historical reality in any way.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

it's extremely obvious given what we've learned about reality that those stories simply do not describe a historical reality in any way.

That's what they said before the first drops of rain fell.

"“When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 24:37-39 NLT

God cares!

[CoAspen]

This topic is drifting on into the abyss of unprovable. Not sure what flood 'stories' have to do with Stans's ariginal question.

Quote:

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'?

1. What is a God Experience?

2. Whose God?

3. How do you know know a person hasn't had a God Experience, just because their experience is different?

[kailooa]

Yes, CoAspen, great questions! I think the original question could use a good bit of clarifying. Are we talking about Christians "dealing with" non-Christians? On what level and in what context? And above all, HOW DO YOU KNOW?

[Tobiwan]

fccool, I would respectfully suggest you did not go back far enough in your event list. Go back to" In the beginning" the real beginning before any creating was done, this world, this Universe, the beginning at the planning stage, the brain storming if you will. I think that They did a lot of "impact analysis" and and the flow charts from Their "what if" questions covered all options as well as Their logic "if this then that". What happens if beings say yes I agree or say no. If or when someone says No to the life giving stuff We offer and they die, how will We convince them that We did not destroy them?

On the question of control, They selected Free Will. To have free will a minimum of two options are necessary. I hate to break it to you, but option to go your own way, apart from God and say no, open rebellion, or Sin has existed before creation and will continue to exist after the redemption is complete. The "option" will exist, They are not going to reprogram the saved to keep them in check.

The stories in the OT may have not happened exactly how they were recorded. They having been passed through a few tellings and generations of story tellers. Was it God's plan to only have one boat and one family? How do we know there was only one and the message only given to one group of people? I mean they did have 120 years and the blueprints were no doubt available someplace. It was no secret. If Noah had had more people an board there might not have been room for a still!!!!!

What amazing examples and records we have of what God wanted to do for everyone. But they would not.

God disappears? I don't think so. Just like the front seat of cars today designed with bucket seats, center consoles, and seat belts to keep my beloved as far away as possible, the driver is still in the same location.

Research is probably not the best word to use. But IMO for the most part, no group or organization has gone out of their way to make God look good most of the time. We have our moments however brief they may be. How many homes and families have we broken up and destroyed, all to baptize and have a mission story?

I'll admit to being not consistent. There are days I like Him less then others. like when I try to understand some of the stories of His dealings I can not wrap my mind around.

The reason for the examination (research) is for the very reason we have the comments and questions in forums like this. Many are not convinced God loves them and is good for them and theirs.

we could say to them Godless peopleGod is God and can do anything He/She likes and you just have to deal with it, and get on the boat. The Sabbath is just a test of obedience and if you do not keep at least one (hence the reason for seven days necessary to get to heaven) you will be lost. and a hundred years from now the same questions will still be being asked.

And the good news will still be missing.

Jesus used the OT stories and records to gain the perspective concerning God. Yes, he learned about Himself, yes I know. He does say My ways are not your ways.

deal with it

[Tobiwan]

Yes, CoAspen, great questions! I think the original question could use a good bit of clarifying. Are we talking about Christians "dealing with" non-Christians? On what level and in what context? And above all, HOW DO YOU KNOW?

4. How do we know we have had an experience

5. Was it real and has it lasted

Do we really want to do a Hit and Run. In our encounters with everyone we should attempt to leave something behind for the Holy Spirit to work with.

An idea recently shared with me

[JoeMo]

After being gone for almost a week, I have taken some time to absorb the posts on this thread. If I had posted a "LIKE" for every post I found very insightful, there would be a whole page of "LIKES". I disagree with some of the posts; but they are from people who like to argue rather than discuss - those I normally tend to disagree with. They are the exceptions rather than the rule.

One of those I liked best we along the lines of "We should deal with those who have not experienced God the same way we deal with everyone else - with consideration, honor, and respect (IOW, love)". I also really appreciate CoAspen's post:

Quote:

1. What is a God Experience?

2. Whose God?

3. How do you know know a person hasn't had a God Experience, just because their experience is different?

4. How do we know we have had an experience

5. Was it real and has it lasted

I don't know if they were actually expecting an answer; or if questions were rhetorical. They are deninitely thought provoking.

I'm especially appreciative of the great open and transperent feedback from the non-Christians here - especially MT, ig, and fc. I've been a Christian most of my life; so most of the Christian feedback, I've heard before. I'm gaining a whole new respect for the motives behind atheism and paganism here; also on the "Powerless Against Sin" thread.

Thanks for the thought-provoking conversation! I have alot I'd like to post, but no time to post it. Maybe later...

[LifeHiscost]

This topic is drifting on into the abyss of unprovable. Not sure what flood 'stories' have to do with Stans's ariginal question.

Quote:

Happens everyday, how should you deal with folks that have not ever had a 'God experience'?

1. What is a God Experience?

2. Whose God?

3. How do you know know a person hasn't had a God Experience, just because their experience is different?

"“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit."Matthew 7:15-17 NLT

"___the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!"Galatians 5:22-23 NLT

God cares!