Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gail

What I'm thinking is that spiritual matters might not be test-able, either now with what we have or ever. Maybe it's beyond the sphere of current scientific testing.

I was only responding to Stan's assertion that good evidence exists for us being 'wired' to worship. It sounds like a fairly testable claim given most definitions for 'worship,' and given that Stan claims good evidence exists, I think it's reasonable for me to ask for it.

The "wired" claim would seem to indicate that someone without any modern evidence, without the ability to read or to interact with major world religions - would still worship.

Turns out that when we find such people living in the wild in groups - they are not atheists.

There is in fact no objective evidence at all that atheism is the natural state of man or people groups. Your statement earlier that it would take some form of advanced scientific enlightenment to turn people into atheists - argues against your own claim not to see the natural bent of humanity to worship God.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Is it your idea that after the invention of the light bulb there were more atheists than Christians in Europe and North America?

After the invention of solid state circuitry - is that when you might suppose that there were more atheists in Europe and North America than Christians?

[Igakusei]

You haven't provided evidence that they don't

There have been 'enlightened' folks throughout history who take the same position you do, it is far from being new.

[Igakusei]

The "wired" claim would seem to indicate that someone without any modern evidence, without the ability to read or to interact with major world religions - would still worship.

Turns out that when we find such people living in the wild in groups - they are not atheists.

There is in fact no objective evidence at all that atheism is the natural state of man or people groups. Your statement earlier that it would take some form of advanced scientific enlightenment to turn people into atheists - argues against your own claim not to see the natural bent of humanity to worship God.

You're making the exact same conflation Stan is. An inherent need to worship is one possible explanation for the widespread prevalence of religion, but it's far from the best one. Humans naturally seek explanations for things, we're pattern-matching machines, and we want to make the pieces fit. Absent a modern scientific understanding, the easy solution is that confusing and complex phenomena like weather, disease, and the creation of life are the work of supernatural spirits.

[Stan]

I doubt if you would be here if you did not have a need.

To me, there is a difference between worship and religion. Religion is a structure people set up to help other people do the same.

(There are some problems in that.)

I don't try to approve, disprove or mock how people make aprons, because there is no driving force for me to do that. If I cared I would be active in one of those actions.

[cricket]

Humans naturally seek explanations for things, we're pattern-matching machines, and we want to make the pieces fit.

We do? We are? That's what we want?

[Gail]

I agree with Cricket here. Yes, but maybe not always.

I liked this statement:

Quote:

I, for one, would not use the word 'worship' as that always brings to mind for me a community in a temple/church/mosque/what have you.

I would be saddened if even atheists did not have a spiritual capability.

What we as believers might commonly understand as worship might be larger than just the temple understanding. I understand it to include the "oneness" and joy we feel in nature, for example, the feeling of smallness when contemplating the heavenly bodies in the universe.

I would include some of what Igakusei describes as spiritual. His view just doesn't include the God of the Bible, if I understand him correctly.

Or, Igakusei, do you not see the experiences you have as spiritual? Can you explain which personal realm (for lack of better wording) you would categorize those as?

[phkrause]

I like your post Gail. I really can relate. For me "religion" the word in and of itself bothers me very much. So many have done things in the name of religion! I believe experiencing God goes far beyond "religion." Worship also goes far beyond the word "religion' for me. The universe worships God, the angels, etc., all worship God. This to me also goes far beyond "religion!"

[Ted Oplinger]

I like your post Gail. I really can relate. For me "religion" the word in and of itself bothers me very much. So many have done things in the name of religion! I believe experiencing God goes far beyond "religion." Worship also goes far beyond the word "religion' for me. The universe worships God, the angels, etc., all worship God. This to me also goes far beyond "religion!"

Blessings,

[joeb]

The fundamental aspect of human nature you're referring to is not the desire to worship, it's the sense of curiosity and need for self-actualization that many people happen to fill with religious worship.

What you call self-actualization is just another name used by those who reject God and His part in our existence for the desire to worship. They replace worshiping God with a worship of self(selfishness). Selfishness is the foundation of the devil's philosophy and it's the very thing that has plunged this world into all its misery, pain and suffering. Take selfishness out of this world and it would erase a major portion, if not all, of the negative things that happen.

I can't think of a single negative experience in my life which did not have selfishness as its core source.

[M. T. Cross]

I like your post Gail. I really can relate. For me "religion" the word in and of itself bothers me very much. So many have done things in the name of religion! I believe experiencing God goes far beyond "religion." Worship also goes far beyond the word "religion' for me. The universe worships God, the angels, etc., all worship God. This to me also goes far beyond "religion!"

I think "religious" people for the most part are crazy. Spiritual people on the other hand tend to be some of the most peaceful and good people I have met.

[phkrause]

I think "religious" people for the most part are crazy. Spiritual people on the other hand tend to be some of the most peaceful and good people I have met.

I don't totally agree, but a good point EC

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: cricket

Not sure what to do, Stan. I'd say "pray for them in the privacy of your own home," but then again sometimes I think it's wrong to pray for people who haven't asked for prayer.

God says that He leads the blind via a way that they do not know.

While we were yet sinners - Christ died for us.

God was in Christ reconciling a lost world - to Himself.

The Holy Spirit "convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" not in response to their request - but pro-actively.

To pray for the lost is not at all out of line with being in harmony with God's own actions, mission for "God so loved the World that He gave.."

in Christ,

Bob

The man with the withered hand in Luke 6 wasn't even asking to be healed. Jesus told him to stand up. Then He told him to stretch his hand out, and then He healed him without even asking his permission.

So yes, pro-active. No permission required. What if you knew your son was on a boat way out on the ocean, in a terrible storm. You want to pray for him, but you know he hasn't asked you to.

What if you knew that he did not want you to pray for him?

Ok, back to topic!

[M. T. Cross]

Not sure what to do, Stan. I'd say "pray for them in the privacy of your own home," but then again sometimes I think it's wrong to pray for people who haven't asked for prayer. To me, it doesn't really matter if people mock my experiences--they're not me and they don't know what I've gone through.

I get what you are saying Cricket. I think its one thing to impulsively pray for someone that shares your faith, but someone that does not, I totally understand your apprehension. Personally here at C/A I will only pray for someone if they give me permission.

[M. T. Cross]

I was just sitting here thinking........(yes there was smoke billowing out me ears )

Unless said person IS mocking your beliefs, why is it necessary to deal with them at all? Why not just let them live their lives as they see fit and follow the beliefs that they are comfortable with? In dealing with them are you not then in essence mocking their experience?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

The fundamental aspect of human nature you're referring to is not the desire to worship, it's the sense of curiosity and need for self-actualization that many people happen to fill with religious worship.

What you call self-actualization is just another name used by those who reject God and His part in our existence for the desire to worship. They replace worshiping God with a worship of self(selfishness). Selfishness is the foundation of the devil's philosophy and it's the very thing that has plunged this world into all its misery, pain and suffering. Take selfishness out of this world and it would erase a major portion, if not all, of the negative things that happen.

I can't think of a single negative experience in my life which did not have selfishness as its core source.

Christianity is based on selfishness. It basically teaches people to let someone else take their punishment so they can live in unlimited wealth and leisure for all eternity. That seems like the height of selfishness to me.

[Igakusei]

What you call self-actualization is just another name used by those who reject God and His part in our existence for the desire to worship. They replace worshiping God with a worship of self(selfishness). Selfishness is the foundation of the devil's philosophy and it's the very thing that has plunged this world into all its misery, pain and suffering. Take selfishness out of this world and it would erase a major portion, if not all, of the negative things that happen.

Have you ever actually thought this through? By any useful definition of the word 'worship,' I do not 'worship' myself. Is it really that difficult for you to comprehend the idea that other people don't necessarily have to worship something?

[kailooa]

I'm with EmptyCross in that I don't really get the question. How do I "deal with" someone who isn't a professed Christian? The same as I "deal with" everyone else. Many of my closest friends are atheist, agnostic, pagan, or 'other.' We became good friends because we treat each other with love and respect. In general, as a Christian, I believe my responsibility is to treat everyone with kindness and respect, which means employing good manners. The end.

If your question is something like "what do you do to bring God to the godless," actually my answer is much the same. God is love, so I try to treat people with love. On my best days of surrender I suppose (or hope or imagine) I am letting God love them through me. I don't make a point of couching everything in religious terms. As we get to know each other, we naturally learn each other's views on God, spirituality, and religion. Any "witnessing" I have done has been in that context. I hope and pray that I am allowed to be an influence for God in the lives of the people I love, at the least, but I try to leave that up to God rather than engaging in overt evangelism, which I view as ineffective.

[M. T. Cross]

I'm with EmptyCross in that I don't really get the question. How do I "deal with" someone who isn't a professed Christian? The same as I "deal with" everyone else. Many of my closest friends are atheist, agnostic, pagan, or 'other.' We became good friends because we treat each other with love and respect. In general, as a Christian, I believe my responsibility is to treat everyone with kindness and respect, which means employing good manners. The end.

If your question is something like "what do you do to bring God to the godless," actually my answer is much the same. God is love, so I try to treat people with love. On my best days of surrender I suppose (or hope or imagine) I am letting God love them through me. I don't make a point of couching everything in religious terms. As we get to know each other, we naturally learn each other's views on God, spirituality, and religion. Any "witnessing" I have done has been in that context. I hope and pray that I am allowed to be an influence for God in the lives of the people I love, at the least, but I try to leave that up to God rather than engaging in overt evangelism, which I view as ineffective.

alot

[Gail]

I was just sitting here thinking........(yes there was smoke billowing out me ears )

Unless said person IS mocking your beliefs, why is it necessary to deal with them at all? Why not just let them live their lives as they see fit and follow the beliefs that they are comfortable with? In dealing with them are you not then in essence mocking their experience?

I was uncomfortable with that particular term "deal with" when I did up this week's newsletter, as you could tell if you read it. I offered, "relate" instead. Was that better?

[Gail]

I'm with EmptyCross in that I don't really get the question. How do I "deal with" someone who isn't a professed Christian? The same as I "deal with" everyone else. Many of my closest friends are atheist, agnostic, pagan, or 'other.' We became good friends because we treat each other with love and respect. In general, as a Christian, I believe my responsibility is to treat everyone with kindness and respect, which means employing good manners. The end.

If your question is something like "what do you do to bring God to the godless," actually my answer is much the same. God is love, so I try to treat people with love. On my best days of surrender I suppose (or hope or imagine) I am letting God love them through me. I don't make a point of couching everything in religious terms. As we get to know each other, we naturally learn each other's views on God, spirituality, and religion. Any "witnessing" I have done has been in that context. I hope and pray that I am allowed to be an influence for God in the lives of the people I love, at the least, but I try to leave that up to God rather than engaging in overt evangelism, which I view as ineffective.

I also like this, and it describes my mindset as well. I have always maintained friendships with those outside the church circle. If I dare say it, we as believers are mandated to reach out, but it's just always been like that for my family without having to try.

But my reasons are more than spiritual. I just genuinely like people, generally, and consider them a blessing that enriches my life experience.

[Gail]

Christianity is based on selfishness. It basically teaches people to let someone else take their punishment so they can live in unlimited wealth and leisure for all eternity. That seems like the height of selfishness to me.

Rich, when I was young I felt ashamed to receive a gift. It's a long story, but my reality at the time. I had an aunt who counselled me on that, teaching me that it is a virtue to learn to accept a gift graciously. Despite the feeling of unworthiness, I learned that it is a blessing for someone to give. My graciousness makes the gift complete and a blessing to both instead of just one.

That was a very godly lesson coming from an atheistic source. It is just one more reason why I do accept the spirituality of atheists as indeed spiritual.

So when I was confronted with the concept of salvation being a free gift, I could relate to that. It was because my atheistic aunt taught me the virtue of accepting a gift regardless of my sense of unworthiness that I could grasp the concept of salvation. For some, it is not a ticket to heaven but a gift.

[fccool]

It's my tendency to view religion as arrogant. I'm not saying it to offend anyone, but just by reading through some comments on this forum, and looking back at my own beliefs in the past, I came to such conclusion.

I mean, let's think about it in context of what Gail is saying. She is basically saying that Christianity and Spiritual things are not "provable" or "testable" in terms of science. Yet, most of Christians, including the Bible itself, would insist on people believing such things on such bases and calling people foolish if they don't. If that's not the height of arrogance, I'm not sure what is.

I did not really get it when I was a Christian and a believer, and just like Gail has put it, I thought people rebelled against God for one reason or another.

Yet, it's not the case at all. If you had a sickness and I brought you a "magical sand" from Africa that supposed to heal you, and I would charge you a $1000 for you to try it - you should have every reason to be suspicious. You would ask for some evidence for this magical sand to be effective. I doubt you'd just eat it out of desperation.

What religion does is much worse IMO. It prays on insecurities of people by inventing a sickness and then providing a cure for it. It tells people that the cure is "free", while in reality it asks EVERYTHING from people. It asks their mind. It asks them to reject the reality for the sake of a pipe dream.

Now, don't get me wrong. I appreciate many things that religion offers - a place to belong to, a sense of peace and community, the idea that people are valuable - BUT it provides these with the idea that it's the only right way to do these things. As though without some imaginary constructs (and these should be deemed imaginary unless these are proven real) is the only "real thing".

I think that's my largest issue with religion. Even the context of this thread is silly. It's not honest about the possibility of all being false. It claims that it can't possibly be false. Yet, deep down all of us know it's not true.

People are not wired to "worship things". People are taught to do so by manipulative constructs that were invented to benefit one group of people more than other. That's why you'll always find the priesthood class to be the class in charge, and this class tightly maintains the nature of the group belief.

In fact, the cultures that don't intentionally "wire people" to worship things tend to be happier in general:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people

[cardw]

Rich, when I was young I felt ashamed to receive a gift. It's a long story, but my reality at the time. I had an aunt who counselled me on that, teaching me that it is a virtue to learn to accept a gift graciously. Despite the feeling of unworthiness, I learned that it is a blessing for someone to give. My graciousness makes the gift complete and a blessing to both instead of just one.

The idea that someone has been tortured and killed as a gift to me is not quite the same thing as someone giving me a gift basket.

Since god makes the rules and has set up the conditions, this really isn't a gift.

[Igakusei]

I look back on all the times I've heard Adventists criticize more primitive religions like the Aztecs for committing human sacrifice as a way of appeasing the gods, apparently oblivious to the observation that their own religion is centered around a god becoming human and being sacrificed to appease the gods.

Who happen to also be himself, somehow. And then he resurrected himself, but still considered the debt paid. Seriously, the whole thing is inane. And immoral.