Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Most people don't want a judgment until their wife is violated, their children are abused, or their job is given to the less qualified.

That's the point of values. That is the very reason we make up laws. Laws are a civil idea designed protect the quality of life of human persons.

That's why God had to give us the moral code, so that we can live in peace together. Almost all our laws that you claim we've made are based on the 10 Commandments.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Most people don't want a judgment until their wife is violated, their children are abused, or their job is given to the less qualified.

Under your system a Priest who is really sorry for molesting a child goes to heaven, but the child who sees religion as corrupt for protecting the priest who molested them is denied salvation.

Its not his system, its the law of the Universe that even God abides by! That's why Jesus died for all humanity, to pay the ultimate penalty. And yes if that Priest is really sorry for what he has done he will be in Heaven, but he needs to ask for forgiveness, he can't just say to "you" oh I'm sorry for that!! He needs to be repented for what he did and than, as Jesus says "Go and Sin no more." If not than is he really sorry for what he's done?????? Since I'm not gonna judge what God sees in him, I can't answer if he's really repented for what he has done. Only God will know. As far as what we have seen of this priest in this life here on this earth at this time, he will have to pay the conseqenices of his actions, just like any other criminal.

[phkrause]

That is why Christianity is morally bankrupt. It allows irresponsible behavior and lack of accountability. All you have to do is accept Jesus as your savior and all is forgiven even if your actions have left a complete mess behind.

And the end argument for who is held responsible is the devil made me do it. How shallow is that?

And that will not happen, and even you know better than that.

[Igakusei]

That's the point of values. That is the very reason we make up laws. Laws are a civil idea designed protect the quality of life of human persons.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: cardw

That's the point of values. That is the very reason we make up laws. Laws are a civil idea designed protect the quality of life of human persons.

Originally Posted By: pkrause

That's why God had to give us the moral code, so that we can live in peace together. Almost all our laws that you claim we've made are based on the 10 Commandments.

Have you actually thought about this, or are you just repeating things you've heard other people say?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badast...s/#.UTaNGaUf9I8

The idea that we'd be completely unable to reason our ways to things like laws against theft and murder without God writing them in stone for us is absurd, and I think Phil was being extremely generous with the 3.5 points he actually gave.

Thanks, than I guess I'm absurd. Either way it doesn't seem to be working very well does it?????

[Igakusei]

I think it's working okay. Among other things we've decided that it's immoral to make slaves of others and that stoning people for talking back to their parents or picking up sticks on the Sabbath is a bit excessive, and we certainly didn't come to those conclusions by reading Yahweh's lists of rules.

Do you think that you personally would be unable to justify a law against murder without being able to point at the Bible? Can you think of any reasons that such a law might be beneficial for a society to adopt that are based on something other than "it's written in that book?"

[kailooa]

I don't agree that Christianity is morally bankrupt, but I can certainly see some of the points you guys are making. And I'm so glad to see that there are others who agree with me that laws are to ensure a safe and civil society, not echoes of the Ten Commandments. As much as some people would like it to be, the USA is not a theocracy, and I am glad of that. Sure, we have some religious iconography in our state buildings and on our money, and "under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s. But we're not a theocracy. A common-sense law against murder or theft of property is aimed at preserving the peace, not enforcing morality. That's sodomy laws.

[Stan]

this thread has way to much sarcasm.

EXACTLY the opposite of the answers I was looking for.

We need to support each other in our spiritual quest, and we all have one. I have met life-long 'religious' people that did not discover God until in their 60's.

"Seek and ye shall find" It is not something that can be inherited.

[kailooa]

Well said!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I like the thought that God is not like His enemies have made Him out to be. He is not harsh, exacting, overbearing and controlling. That all He asks and has ever asked is that we trust Him.

Amen, Tobiwan. I have tangibly (at least to me) "experienced" more of God since I started looking at Him as a Father figure rather than an overbearing tyrant. He seems nicer than a lot of people say He is.

I pretty much like everything most people are posting here - especially the non-believers. Thank you guys for being so candid. I have no response to defend my faith by my witness - not my logic. My witness is that being a believer seems to be working out well for me. I'm pretty fulfilled where I am.

I cannot defend that with rationality any more than I can explain why I fell in love with my wife (After 30 years, I sometimes forget.) Sorry sweetie! I didn't mean to say that!

That being said, y'all are giving me great ideas on how to relate to my daughter's growing drift into atheism. You have helped me understand the logical process; and I find it sound. But my own experiences (real or imagined) tell me different. She, like many of you, is basically giving up on Christianity due to the reality seen in her science classes and the fact that she, like most of you, never had an "experience" with God; so she thinks it's a bunch of BS. You have helped me to understand how she got there. Thank you.

For the record, I don't think I am at any advantage or "better" than anyone else because I have had these "experiences" (real or imagined). I pretty much think it sucks that God doesn't give them to everyone. I can't explain why some have the "experience" and some don't; or why some have a deeper "experience" than others.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

this thread has way to much sarcasm.

Lots of sarcasm - but to me it's tongue-in-cheek. I really like this thread. For the most part, I think people are being honest and candid.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Most people don't want a judgment until their wife is violated, their children are abused, or their job is given to the less qualified.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Under your system a Priest who is really sorry for molesting a child goes to heaven, but the child who sees religion as corrupt for protecting the priest who molested them is denied salvation.

Its not his system, its the law of the Universe that even God abides by!

Then god is not all powerful and he is not all knowing. The law of the Universe is god.

This is why Christianity is morally bankrupt. Because Christianity takes this system by "Faith" one has to subscribe to a whole host of solutions that would be immoral if any other deity or person endorsed them.

The only difference is through some subjective "god encounter" the Bible is said to be the basis of truth. This requires a whole set of illogical mental oxymoronic defenses that one would never use if it said these ideas in any other book.

If you were born Muslim, you would be having this same "god encounter" except you would be defending the Koran and it's iron age nonsense.

I can understand having a transcendent spiritual experience, but why attribute it to the Bible when it clearly doesn't describe a god of love?

The god of the Bible can't make up his mind whether he is kind or cruel. The god of the Bible is bi-polar and unpredictable. He gets all upset over gathering a few sticks on the Sabbath or some kids mocking a bald prophet, and then shows up in person to tell us that god isn't really that way, but we need to keep all the law and the prophets. What? He says that to obey is better than sacrifice and then proceeds to sacrifice himself so people don't have to obey.

We should turn the other cheek, but if you don't accept Jesus then you're dead. And you are expected to accept this Jesus with no evidence that this Jesus is god. All you have is the claims of the Bible and you have to accept that the Bible is this really advanced book of wisdom even though it teaches that the world is flat and that the earth goes around the sun and there was a world wide flood and the earth was created 6000 years ago.

And historically people who have been following this book have killed more people in the name of their religion than any other ideology on the planet.

To me there is clearly nothing moral about the god of the Bible.

[phkrause]

this thread has way to much sarcasm.

EXACTLY the opposite of the answers I was looking for.

We need to support each other in our spiritual quest, and we all have one. I have met life-long 'religious' people that did not discover God until in their 60's.

"Seek and ye shall find" It is not something that can be inherited.

Excellent post Stan

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

To me there is clearly nothing moral about the god of the Bible.

The evidence of how acceptance of Jesus as Lord of their lives down through the ages, and how that has made individuals themselves more helpful in raising themselves and others to a higher standard of living, in a lost and dying world, reveals the fallacy of the opinion expressed above.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I can't explain why some have the "experience" and some don't; or why some have a deeper "experience" than others.

Nor can we give a reason why a perfect angel, created by a Creator of love, would make for himself a position of malicious destroyer. If there were a good reason, the damage that has ensued could be justified and overlooked. The loss of any and all who choose to make God the enemy will still bow the knee in the end and acknowledge they have been wrong. The sad thing is that when that time comes, their bent for self destruct will be set in stone.

It makes about as much sense as the individual in Connecticut made in the slaughter of those 20 innocent children and the adults who tried to protect them, and the end results will be every bit as horrific.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1T7JwwyAv8&feature=endscreen

God cares!

[cardw]

Quote:

To me there is clearly nothing moral about the god of the Bible.

The evidence of how acceptance of Jesus as Lord of their lives down through the ages, and how that has made individuals themselves more helpful in raising themselves and others to a higher standard of living, in a lost and dying world, reveals the fallacy of the opinion expressed above.

God cares!

And what about those Christians who for hundreds of years tortured and killed each other because of some minor doctrinal differences? What about those Christians who read in the Bible that a witch should be burned and then proceeded with their witch manuals to go village to village burning alive women who had nothing wrong with them other than a mole in the wrong place or a numb area on their body?

The problem with your claim is you discard any evidence that your claims are wrong. That is called dishonesty, which is supposedly against Christian values.

In almost every drug research program the placebo has a 30% success rate. This would indicate that you get 30% success simply from a belief that it will work. And since we have good people in almost every religion and non-religion, your claim that it is because of Christianity has no merit. It is far more likely that it is either the person themselves or the side effect of their own belief. And it doesn't matter what moral pill they believe in, you get a 30% success rate.

My final note is I called the God of the Bible immoral, not Christians. So your statement about how good Christians are has no application to my original statement anyway.

When you defend the God of the Bible all you do is quote back all the immoral actions and beliefs that this God promotes. You don't address the immorality itself.

It is immoral to allow one person to be tortured for an others actions period. That is not justice because it is unjust for the innocent person being tortured. An enlightened all powerful god would simply forgive people without requiring any torture and killing.

If an all powerful god can present crazy and tell us that its because of his mysterious ways, why not simply change the rules if one is supposedly the rule giver?

[cardw]

I like the thought that God is not like His enemies have made Him out to be. He is not harsh, exacting, overbearing and controlling.

[Igakusei]

In almost every drug research program the placebo has a 30% success rate.

Off topic, but I literally *just* had this question in a program I'm using to review for boards. I saw the question, opened this webpage, and here you are saying this. It's a miracle!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

It's a miracle!

Praise God! (but only as you see fit)!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

And what about those Christians who for hundreds of years tortured and killed each other because of some minor doctrinal differences?

" “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves."

Matthew 7:15 NLT

" No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."Romans 2:29 NLT

"“I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan."Revelation 2:9 NLT

God cares!

[Bravus]

'No true Scotsman' again...

[cricket]

Et tu, Quoque? Et tu?

[Bravus]

Directed to me? If not, no worries, if so, then see my .sig.

Defining all Christians who kill in the name of their faith as not true Christians is simple falsehood.

The truth matters. It's not an attack on Christianity to tell the whole truth about it.

[cardw]

Quote:

And what about those Christians who for hundreds of years tortured and killed each other because of some minor doctrinal differences?

" “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves."

Matthew 7:15 NLT

" No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."Romans 2:29 NLT

"“I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan."Revelation 2:9 NLT

Since this is a thread about "dealing" with those who have not experienced god, let me tell you as one who doesn't believe in your god that quoting texts like this is considered equivalent to spell casting.

[Guest]

We need to support each other in our spiritual quest, and we all have one. I have met life-long 'religious' people that did not discover God until in their 60's.

"Seek and ye shall find" It is not something that can be inherited.

That's a fact. )