Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[cricket]

Do you, cardw, think that your set of experiences and research findings that comprise your (definition of what) is true and real would change if the experience of complete silence were somehow disrupted in a seemingly real, tangible and personal way? That is to say, if you had a "God experience", would it change anything?

[Gail]

It's interesting that my feelings of shame and fear came outside of Christianity, and were relieved with its acceptance.

In that way it was totally opposite to your experience.

[M. T. Cross]

It's interesting that my feelings of shame and fear came outside of Christianity, and were relieved with its acceptance.

In that way it was totally opposite to your experience.

Funny how that happens.

Just makes me go back to my statement a couple weeks ago. One mountain, many paths.

[cardw]

Do you, cardw, think that your set of experiences and research findings that comprise your is true and real would change if the experience of complete silence were somehow disrupted in a seemingly real, tangible and personal way? That is to say, if you had a "God experience", would it change anything?

I have transcendent experiences all the time and they are very meaningful to me. There is this idea that it has to be under a Christian umbrella for it to be authentic.

I have no idea if these experiences are god trying to communicate or it is some part of my higher self or something else. In fact it is more likely that it is something else, because I can very quickly dismiss all those options on a lack of evidence.

I realize that people do have meaningful experiences under the Christian umbrella, but I have very good evidence that it is not Christianity itself that provides that. People believe that it is Christianity and Christian beliefs can certainly provide an upgrade, but I think that it is more likely that Christianity is only symbol of something much more organic within the human person.

The reason I believe this to be true is because I see these same experiences happen with non-christians. Christianity tends to label these other experiences as the devil providing a counterfeit, but they claim these things with no evidence at all.

I don't want to minimize the progress that people make in their lives. I think we can better understand why this happens if we can move past authoritarian Bible belief to using the tools of reason and evidence informed by human empathy.

There will always be things we don't completely understand and that is why I am agnostic. So, to me, the authoritarian claims of truth by those who just quote texts, are quite jarring when I see the evidence of their falsehood and harm within my own life and others.

[cricket]

Quote:

...something much more organic within the human person.

Quote:

I have transcendent experiences all the time and they are very meaningful to me.

Why are they meaningful to you?

And on a side note: Thank you for your response. I took the time to read your link on your signature line and more thoroughly understand your position on this thread.

[Bravus]

Thanks all for a thoughtful discussion (32 posts since I went to sleep).

It's clearly not just me.

As someone noted, it's not only *that* texts are quoted, it's *which* texts are chosen: the Bible is *not* made entirely of condemnation, but a read of all scriptures quoted in this thread would yield a different perception.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

And Christians are taught that it is "good" to spread this idea of shame and fear. You can rename it and place a nice frame around it, but it changes nothing about its basis in fear.

As I'm sitting here in my living room at the computer, my wife, sitting in another easy chair was looking at what appeared to be a picture of Jesus not totally visible to her, suggesting she wished she could see it. Knowing her limited ability to enjoy things as a result of a recent auto accident, I got up to adjust the picture, making it more visible to her, revealing Jesus holding the world in His hand.

In the lower left hand corner of the large picture was a small wallet size card with a logo on it, "I Love You". It depicts the reality of a facet of God's character which defines Him. OTOH it shows the world as being separate from the Creator and in a way, on it's own, subject to all the vagaries of a world for the most part, not willing to accept God's desire to take care of this world, all the while protesting that it is God's fault the world is in the shape it is, distancing themselves from any responsibility for the misery, anguish, and heartache that is a prominent part of daily life for most of that world.

So is this something new? As if there in no evidence that anyone but God could be responsible, even from the Word, which many will not accept as fact.

"...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”" Genesis 2:17 NKJV

"But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,"Genesis 3:4 KJV

The first lie. And thus began man's journey into the abyss. And to insure the continuation of its' baleful affects___!

"The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”"

Genesis 3:12 NASB

The first lesson on "How to pass the buck"! And then to avoid personal responsibility for any collateral damage.

" “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”"Genesis 4:8 NASB

It's in our Genes (or is that jeans), "We can't help ourselves". And that last statement happens to be true. Sad to say, most individuals have written off the only solution to the problem and are doomed to repeat the same scenario for the rest of their lives, be they hypocrites, the self righteous, or the self-deceived.

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

The only secure ones who escape this reality are those who are ignorant or sorry for where they know their lack. What makes me think I can determine that?

"Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."James 4:17 NASB

"Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”"Luke 23:34 NLT

For those who have all the answers without Him, the future holds no promise other than one doesn't have to spend eternity with Him. There is no separate world in the future where the Creator is unwelcome.

"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."John 9:41 NKJV

God cares!

[Bravus]

Good post, sir.

[cardw]

Quote:

...something much more organic within the human person.

Quote:

I have transcendent experiences all the time and they are very meaningful to me.

Why are they meaningful to you?

I could ask why are they meaningful to anyone?

It's kind of like asking why people like beautiful things?

In a way, when one explains the experience, the experience goes away or is reduced.

That's the problem with Christianity. It tries to codify a single interpretation of the transcendent and in the process destroys it.

If I were to put words to these encounters I would say they help me know myself better.

[cardw]

It's in our Genes (or is that jeans), "We can't help ourselves". And that last statement happens to be true. Sad to say, most individuals have written off the only solution to the problem and are doomed to repeat the same scenario for the rest of their lives, be they hypocrites, the self righteous, or the self-deceived.

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is a lie and exaggeration.

If I tell you that my life is thriving because I dumped all this nonsense you will then say that I'm being arrogant and raise the bar for being "good."

What this amounts to is Christianity being a negative Nancy.

If we take an objective look at the world's violence it is much lower in percentage than 1000 years ago. We are just better at reporting bad news and since we have a larger population the numbers are naturally larger.

If you were a male in the dark ages your chances of dying a violent death was 40%. That is now down to 2% world wide and even less in developed countries. And remember the dark ages were theocracies. So it would seem when Christianity was in control the violence increases. And your response is that all those people weren't true Christians, except you have god ordering his people to kill on a mass scale in the Old Testament and supposedly God was the same back then as he is today.

You point to the 10 commandments, but the Bible says nothing about the condemnation of slavery, rape, child abuse, or the abuse of women. It would seem that any form of advanced value systems would at the very least include these.

And today you have chosen one version of Christianity out of 40,000 different ones each claiming as confidently as you that they are right and you have the gaul to call other people "hypocrites, the self righteous, or the self-deceived."

I don't get it.

[cricket]

I could ask why are they meaningful to anyone?

Sorry. Thought I understood something. Organic things that happen to me aren't really meaningful to me. They just "are". I realize I'm fairly unique in that aspect. Seriously, I'm sorry I asked.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I could ask why are they meaningful to anyone?

Sorry. Thought I understood something. Organic things that happen to me aren't really meaningful to me.

[cricket]

Not upset, just regretful.

I'm learning.

[Tobiwan]

I would like to share a thought I picked up from a conversation recorded in the Book "The Shack" God is speaking and says "not all roads lead to me, but I am willing to go down any road to find and offer and reach" ( loosely remembered on my part) For the most part, This is a whole different concept then is used in christian groups for their outreach programs. Kill a commie for christ, burning churches or individuals at the stake, putting people to the question, drowning and such have been used as ways of dealing with the godless hordes as well as those whose God experience is different from their own.

Christianity is just a word, and only one road. Given the atrocities recorded under this banner and in the name of a large portion of christians, I wish God would come down again and re-confuse the language. We use phrases and string words together and toss them about in a manner we confuse with communication. God is in the people saving business and we are not called to judge the road that other people are traveling.

We are advised to "be ready to give a reason or answer for our hope that we have, When we are asked". Christ mingled in a manner that suggested He desired their individual good, not one group over another. Christ's words and speaking were and still are different from every other church leader. Now, Isolation is more the order of the day, christians suggest you change your reasoning to my conclusions and accept the unity I offer. As a child I could only play with the children of other church members. My trust in the community I came back to has been really shaken with the discovery that each child of mine was abused by someone in that community. My wife knew and kept it from me. Our church youth leader was a predator, and the community laughed at us for trusting him with our children.

Pogo (a comic character) says it best "We have met the enemy, and he is us"

We have a long long way to go and a very short time to get there. Going over the list of what needs to be accomplished before the good by what ever name you want to call it can be realized, it seems to me at least that only one thing is left, that being the gospel to the whole world. Not the good news from only the christian point of view, but the good news about God. how He runs the universe, how those who say no to Him are treated, how He handles opposition.

Do I dare to suggest it? Yea, why not.

I fear that to often we have pushed and prodded people to become or be like the runner that just wanted to run but could only report on noise and confusion. Program after new program, year after year With a little success here and there, but no completion of the mission. Is it possible that we are and have been asking and sending people out with an incomplete and partial message with the wrong focus?

After all we are still here.

Just my .02

[cardw]

Not upset, just regretful.

I'm learning.

There's nothing to regret. Ask your questions. What you can learn to do is in the exchange of ideas there is nothing personal. The reason for this is so that everyone can express what they think. Each person takes responsibility for their own view and the reactions people might have. I clearly separate people from their ideas.

I try to be precise and truthful. My intent is not to shut anyone down. I sense that you feel shut down. I'm sorry.

[Bravus]

Thanks Tobiwan, I like that a lot.

If Paul could say "I have become all things to all [people] that I might by all means reach some", how much more God?

The notion that there is only one, narrow way to God is an artefact of our yen for exclusivity and being right, not anything real.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I have transcendent experiences all the time and they are very meaningful to me. There is this idea that it has to be under a Christian umbrella for it to be authentic.

cardw,

To me, this is a revelation. Thanks for posting that. The biggest thing I have learned from this particular thread is that my use of scripture to demonstrate the existence of God is akin to using quotes from Harry Potter books to prove the existence of Harry Potter. I really appreciate what I am learning from you and others.

MT, you mentioned that you didn't like the term "non-believer". I am a frequent user of that term. My apologies.

[Stan]

So is there anyone wanting/able to give more details?

Not asking them to join a church, not trying to manipulate by a temp love. etc

I recently spent a few hours with a wonderful young couple, fairly affluent, and educated. They have gone to various places in the world, ie spiritual centres, various mountains, etc etc to try and experience God. They live an amazing life, but feel empty.

They are tired of sarcasm, threats of hell fire, and other things I will not get into.

[M. T. Cross]

MT, you mentioned that you didn't like the term "non-believer". I am a frequent user of that term. My apologies.

I just find it not very accurate. Everyone believes in something.

[M. T. Cross]

So is there anyone wanting/able to give more details?

Not asking them to join a church, not trying to manipulate by a temp love. etc

I recently spent a few hours with a wonderful young couple, fairly affluent, and educated. They have gone to various places in the world, ie spiritual centres, various mountains, etc etc to try and experience God. They live an amazing life, but feel empty.

They are tired of sarcasm, threats of hell fire, and other things I will not get into.

I am interested in what you told them

[Bravus]

It's a tough one, but I think Christians have to find ways to rein in other Christians.

[LifeHiscost]

It's a tough one, but I think Christians have to find ways to rein in other Christians.

Those qualified would be the ones who are capable of crucifying Christ as this Word suggests.

"And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation"John 11:49-51 NKJV

God cares!

[debbym]

Quote:

So is there anyone wanting/able to give more details?

when new folks are coming to church, we let them know we need them. there is work to do, wonderful work. their gifts are needed, and there are places to fill, things not happening till they are there to do them.

when church is experienced as a spectator sport, there are lots of less then desirable things to be spending time looking at, and watching and becoming unhappy over. you can focus on how am i being treated, how am i being manipulated to think, how do i see others being treated. does anyone care about me?

Jesus came to serve not to be served. and when anyone is commissioned to serve, their is a whole raft of stuff they side step as they have a higher place of focus, and it is not on themselves.

it is so good i don't have to worry about how perfect i am, how sinless i am, whether i am going to heaven of hell, how scared my church makes me... on and on... i am busy, my abilities are employed i have things to do... i have no time to worry about these things... i want those around me to be lifted up in any way i can... i want those who do not have such joy and love to experience the joy and love it is their privilege to have.

and help is needed, their are important things to be done for others... who are highly valued.

[Live4Him]

Originally Posted By: Live4Him

Can anyone show me where I called anyone a troll? Never called him one, was asking if he was interested in a serious dialog or whether he was just trolling. Which I believe is a perfectly legitimate question seeing how most forums unfortunately have people that like to troll them usually.

Think about this question for a moment. If I was a troll, what are the chances I'm going to tell you?

A troll is not going to say, "Yes, I'm a troll, so don't have any further conversation with me." That would defeat the whole purpose for trolling.

In addition you can read a fair number of my posts and determine that for yourself.

Ok so back to the original question. The Bible does make distinct differences between those who follow God and those who follow satan. Are you willing to have a rational discussion about why there is nothing Biblically wrong with pointing out those who serve God's enemy?

[M. T. Cross]

Are you willing to have a rational discussion about why there is nothing Biblically wrong with pointing out those who serve God's enemy?