Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[cardw]

Ok so back to the original question. The Bible does make distinct differences between those who follow God and those who follow satan. Are you willing to have a rational discussion about why there is nothing Biblically wrong with pointing out those who serve God's enemy?

You don't have to reason out what the Bible says. It's simply a fact that the Bible teaches some rather divisive ideas that are based on iron age thinking.

If you are going to "deal" with me on the question of god, quoting the Bible is not a rational discussion. It is an authoritarian approach, not a rational one.

[Live4Him]

Originally Posted By: Live4Him

Ok so back to the original question. The Bible does make distinct differences between those who follow God and those who follow satan. Are you willing to have a rational discussion about why there is nothing Biblically wrong with pointing out those who serve God's enemy?

You don't have to reason out what the Bible says. It's simply a fact that the Bible teaches some rather divisive ideas that are based on iron age thinking.

If you are going to "deal" with me on the question of god, quoting the Bible is not a rational discussion. It is an authoritarian approach, not a rational one.

If you think it is not rational that would suggest to me you do not understand the Bible nor the controversy between good and evil. It's perfectly rational if you understand this. And it takes no more faith to believe than does the theory that living organisms came from no n living ones. You come to a christian forum I think you can expect to be explained from the Bible. Just because you follow a different master and a different creed doesn't negate that you are going to have our beliefs explained from the Bible. To think differently would be sort of ludicrous really. I am in no way ashamed of my belief in the Bible. I am not going to be shamed into downplaying what Christ has done in my life by bitterness and hatred. I feel sorry for people like you card. You have no hope. Your only hope is to die and rot in the ground. I have hope of something better than this life. I believe hatred for the Bible comes from two sources. 1. Ignorance of the great controversy or 2. People feel convicted of their sins so must reject the Bible in order to live a selfish, self gratifying life.

[Tom Wetmore]

That is sure to win people over to your POV...

[cardw]

If you think it is not rational that would suggest to me you do not understand the Bible nor the controversy between good and evil. It's perfectly rational if you understand this.

[phkrause]

I am in agreement with you, but its sometimes difficult to say what you mean without coming across harsh, on a forum.

[OzarkWoman]

I reject the Bible because I have the courage to be honest with myself. The bible, in my experience, teaches things that are not effective. I hear no voice of god. I have not seen evidence of evil.

I am sorry but I disagree with you emphatically!!! You are not really being honest with yourself. You are rationalizing and nothing else. That gives you the freedom you seek to do as you please, and damn anyone and everyone else.

The Bible teaches things that are vary effective, if one is truly honest. I don't hear the voice of God either, but I do feel and understand what the Spirit is usually trying to inform me. Of course, I am able to discern quite well.

If you haven't seen evidence of evil, then you must be lind, deaf and dumb!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I reject the Bible because I have the courage to be honest with myself. The bible, in my experience, teaches things that are not effective. I hear no voice of god. I have not seen evidence of evil.

I am sorry but I disagree with you emphatically!!! You are not really being honest with yourself. You are rationalizing and nothing else. That gives you the freedom you seek to do as you please, and damn anyone and everyone else.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I reject the Bible because I have the courage to be honest with myself. The bible, in my experience, teaches things that are not effective. I hear no voice of god. I have not seen evidence of evil.

If you haven't seen evidence of evil, then you must be lind, deaf and dumb!

[CoAspen]

I will have to agree with you...tis very sad.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

If someone's goal is to receive praise then that person is terribly insecure. That would mean that both God and Satan are terribly insecure if that is what they are fighting about. If humans can perceive that the pursuit of power is not wise, don't you think the brightest beings in the universe could figure that one out?

I'm not so sure it's logical to confer human characteristics onto God. Aside from that, I don't really see the goal of God is "to receive praise." The praise He gets is voluntary - at least that is how I read it. The angels have free will. They give their "holy holy holy" 's to God voluntarily. I don't see an 11th commandment stating "God MUST be praised." Humans certainly have free will - to believe, or not... to praise, or not... to be a Christian, or not... to question, to think, to debate, to argue, to hate, to love.

I agree that satan is in pursuit of power, but I don't think that's God's pursuit. I believe God is interested in thwarting satan's quest for power in order to prevent complete chaotical anarchy of the world God created.

Ah well... maybe I'm wrong...

[phkrause]

Quote:

If someone's goal is to receive praise then that person is terribly insecure. That would mean that both God and Satan are terribly insecure if that is what they are fighting about. If humans can perceive that the pursuit of power is not wise, don't you think the brightest beings in the universe could figure that one out?

I'm not so sure it's logical to confer human characteristics onto God. Aside from that, I don't really see the goal of God is "to receive praise." The praise He gets is voluntary - at least that is how I read it. The angels have free will. They give their "holy holy holy" 's to God voluntarily. I don't see an 11th commandment stating "God MUST be praised." Humans certainly have free will - to believe, or not... to praise, or not... to be a Christian, or not... to question, to think, to debate, to argue, to hate, to love.

I agree that satan is in pursuit of power, but I don't think that's God's pursuit. I believe God is interested in thwarting satan's quest for power in order to prevent complete chaotical anarchy of the world God created.

Ah well... maybe I'm wrong...

Ah well...maybe your not wrong...

Great post Pam.

[cardw]

Quote:

If someone's goal is to receive praise then that person is terribly insecure. That would mean that both God and Satan are terribly insecure if that is what they are fighting about. If humans can perceive that the pursuit of power is not wise, don't you think the brightest beings in the universe could figure that one out?

I'm not so sure it's logical to confer human characteristics onto God. Aside from that, I don't really see the goal of God is "to receive praise." The praise He gets is voluntary - at least that is how I read it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I'm not so sure it's logical to confer human characteristics onto God. Aside from that, I don't really see the goal of God is "to receive praise." The praise He gets is voluntary - at least that is how I read it.

It's not voluntary if you will die if you don't do it. It's this message, "I love you so much and I hope that you will praise me, but if you don't you're going to die and even though I'm all powerful, I can't help but let you die." There's so much that is sick about that message.

I've never read anything that remotely infers that if one does not praise God, one will die.

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

The angels have free will. They give their "holy holy holy" 's to God voluntarily. I don't see an 11th commandment stating "God MUST be praised." Humans certainly have free will - to believe, or not... to praise, or not... to be a Christian, or not... to question, to think, to debate, to argue, to hate, to love.

Quote:

It's not free will if you're not informed. If God's motivation is unknown, then we have no basis to determine if God is good.

I find that an odd statement. Humans most certainly DO have free will, whether anyone chooses to admit it, or not. God's motivation is found in the Bible, and in many, many other writings that I like to think are "inspired" (not necessarily referring to Christian or spiritual authors, either). Whether anyone wants to disagree with me, is up to his/her ... free will.

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I agree that satan is in pursuit of power,

Quote:

But how stupid is that. Let's say you have control of the universe. All you gained is a job and set yourself up to be the target of everybody's complaints. You would think Satan could have figured this one out.

If Satan was way smarter than us and knew God so well, what's his end game? There is none because you're playing against the person who makes the rules.

Satan becomes this straw target that's not based in any kind of logical reality.

I agree. Satan isn't the brightest bulb at Home Depot.

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Ah well... maybe I'm wrong...

Quote:

This is not about who is right. It's about what is true. We are both accountable to the truth.

"right" = "true"

"wrong" = "false"

semantics... love it

I don't claim to be always right and have the ultimate truth, and I don't think you would claim that you do, either. So, we each seek the truth in our own way. And I think God respects that.

[LifeHiscost]

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This is not about who is right. It's about what is true. We are both accountable to the truth.

Accountable to the Truth! Now it's getting more clear. Pay no attention to the Truth and the only thing left are the results of that which is false, call it what you may.

"Jesus told him, “I am the way,the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." John 14:6 NLT

Since He's fulfilled many of His promises to me, He's proven to me to be a cut above those giving unproven words for future wellbeing.

Quote:

It's not voluntary if you will die if you don't do it. It's this message, "I love you so much and I hope that you will praise me, but if you don't you're going to die and even though I'm all powerful, I can't help but let you die." There's so much that is sick about that message.

It is written that the life is in the blood. To say that I don't want to have life given by the blood, I'd rather have liquor to live on, then accuse the manufacturer of the liquor of the responsibility for my death, is reasoning the same way as the opposing view to Rudy's logic. It's called passing the buck.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

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I agree. Satan isn't the brightest bulb at Home Depot.

[phkrause]

Great post Pam

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

When you loose the battle of reason you resort to defamation.

Et tu, Brute? (Julius Caesar, 3.1.77)

God cares!

[cardw]

I'm not so sure it's logical to confer human characteristics onto God. Aside from that, I don't really see the goal of God is "to receive praise." The praise He gets is voluntary - at least that is how I read it.

Originally Posted By: cardw

It's not voluntary if you will die if you don't do it. It's this message, "I love you so much and I hope that you will praise me, but if you don't you're going to die and even though I'm all powerful, I can't help but let you die." There's so much that is sick about that message.

I've never read anything that remotely infers that if one does not praise God, one will die.

So if I refuse to praise god I won't die?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I don't hear the voice of God either, but I do feel and understand what the Spirit is usually trying to inform me.

Just because He doesn't speak in the English language doesn't mean He hasn't been speaking to you. And many, including yourself listen more often with the heart as well as the mind and ears. It is the person who listens only with their intellect that comes up short, putting themselves as the god of their own lives. It was Lucifer's downfall, not without adherents in the world today.

God cares!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It's not voluntary if you will die if you don't do it. It's this message, "I love you so much and I hope that you will praise me, but if you don't you're going to die and even though I'm all powerful, I can't help but let you die." There's so much that is sick about that message.

It is written that the life is in the blood. To say that I don't want to have life given by the blood, I'd rather have liquor to live on, then accuse the manufacturer of the liquor of the responsibility for my death, is reasoning the same way as the opposing view to Rudy's logic. It's called passing the buck.

The difference is god is making the rules. According to you he is fully capable of providing a place for me to live outside of praising him, unless you are now saying that god is not all powerful.

I certainly am currently living without praising him. Quite happily I might add. But according to you god is going to make sure my life is miserable, unless I praise him.

And if your view is Satan is letting me off the hook, then that would suggest that left to our own devices we can live quite a happy life.

Maybe both god and Satan should just butt out.

[cardw]

Quote:

I don't hear the voice of God either, but I do feel and understand what the Spirit is usually trying to inform me.

Just because He doesn't speak in the English language doesn't mean He hasn't been speaking to you. And many, including yourself listen more often with the heart as well as the mind and ears. It is the person who listens only with their intellect that comes up short, putting themselves as the god of their own lives. It was Lucifer's downfall, not without adherents in the world today.

There may be transcendent experiences, but there is absolutely no evidence that the source of these is the god of the Bible.

I state the I don't know the source of these. You are the arrogant one because somehow you have god like powers to determine the source of these experiences.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I have not seen evidence of evil.

I'm assuming the belief is held, the party who murdered those 20 little, ages 6,7, innocent children as well as the 7 adult caretakers who tried to intervene, in Connecticut some few months ago was not born of evil? Perhaps he had a good reason. And the reason/s was/were ______ ________ ___________ __________(fill in the blank/s).

God cares!

[cardw]

Quote:

I agree. Satan isn't the brightest bulb at Home Depot.

Apparently God thought that an idiot was an appropriate leader of the angels.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Maybe both god and Satan should just butt out.

God (your Creator), is keeping you alive but I'm sure if you are willing to ask Him to butt out, seriously with full knowledge, not out of ignorance, He'll honor your request.

OTOH, if you ask the same thing of satan, don't count on it.

"Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me!" John 8:43-45 NLT

For satan and those this scripture refers to, there is no escaping what the text says. For a person willing to accept the Authority they know they cannot change on their own, all they need to do is give up the control they mistakenly believe is in their own hands, yield it over to the Lord of Life, and instantly you will be placed in the Way.

Can I explain how that can be? If I could I would be as wise as the Law Giver. Do whatever you find most reasonable. In the end, every knee will bow to the Truth, whether you believe the Word or not. It's inevitable.

"So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For the Scriptures say,

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,

‘every knee will bend to me,

and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.’”

Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God."

Romans 14:10-12 NLT

On the premise that we're all believers, as has been suggested by someone else, I'm assuming the next point, that all will give a personal account to God is accepted also.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Apparently God thought that an idiot was an appropriate leader of the angels.

"“You were the anointed cherub who covers;

I established you;

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,

Till iniquity was found in you.

“By the abundance of your trading

You became filled with violence within,

And you sinned;

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing

Out of the mountain of God;

And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the fiery stones.

"Ezekiel 28:14-16 NKJV

It's really all about control. And the underlying principle is what is bringing this world down today, by the ones who wish to subvert the Creator's right to order the world with the same perfection by which He created Lucifer.

God cares!