Dealing with those who have not experienced God

[HopefulOne]

Spell casting ??? Never heard that one before.

Who or what considers the Bible scriptures as spell casting ??

In Canada i think it can be considered hate speech,,but that does not make it so.

[LifeHiscost]

Spell casting ??? Never heard that one before.

Who or what considers the Bible scriptures as spell casting ??

In Canada i think it can be considered hate speech,,but that does not make it so.

The enemy of souls will come up with anything that turns seekers from the Truth.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the---Truth no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6 NASB

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”"John 8:32 NLT

"If you look for me wholeheartedly, you will find me."Jeremiah 29:13 NLT

God cares!

[Tobiwan]

Cardw, I appreciate your honesty and People would do well to reject the God as presented in most churches. I did. Left church, God everything, saw no purpose or meaning in any of it. But the questions from the stories, I had been told kept turning over and over in my mind. I have found some answers. A few from church friends I have met over the years, others from other sources. I still have questions about why and God did many of the things He did. I really enjoyed the book "The Shack"

I don't want to insult you in any way or convince you (as if I could) what has worked for me will have value for you. That my conclusions are the only ones would be foolish and arrogant on my part. I did think and feel that in the past to many times.

Going back to the original question, I really like what Thumpers mommy told him, "If you can't say somthin nice, don't say nutten at all"

[Bravus]

I think cardw's point was that, to a person who does not believe in a particular religion, having a heap of very hostile texts pointed at him/her would have the same emotional impact as a witch casting a spell on a Christian: fear and confusion.

All it takes is an act of empathy and imagination: imagine that you have a number of texts from the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita, or Wicca, or... directed in your direction. How would that feel?

[Igakusei]

Mildly amusing?

[Bravus]

For you, aye: as an Aussie comic said 'Like having a hippy threaten to punch me in the aura'.

For someone who believes deeply in spiritual things?

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

I think cardw's point was that, to a person who does not believe in a particular religion, having a heap of very hostile texts pointed at him/her would have the same emotional impact as a witch casting a spell on a Christian: fear and confusion.

All it takes is an act of empathy and imagination: imagine that you have a number of texts from the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita, or Wicca, or... directed in your direction. How would that feel?]

Oh I could do that all day. Other than my signature I just don't because I think it would be wrong. Of course wiccan stuff would go on so long that it would bore you to sleep and likely fail in the process.........

On the flip side this is a Christian site and one should expect to see a certain amount of Biblical based commentary. However the degree where it is posted back at those that do not follow the bible, with zero commentary other than the verses by the poster is a bit inane. It leaves one wondering if they really have any thought process going on or if they are just quoting by rote.

[cardw]

The enemy of souls will come up with anything that turns seekers from the Truth.

Let me turn this around and see how this feels. This statement above is the same as me saying...

"The enemy of reason (LifeHiscost) will come up with anything that turns seekers from the Truth."

And then posting some uncommented quotes....

“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species."

"Gullibility and credulity are considered undesirable qualities in every department of human life -- except religion."

Christopher Hitchens.

[cricket]

I think cardw's point was that, to a person who does not believe in a particular religion, having a heap of very hostile texts pointed at him/her would have the same emotional impact as a witch casting a spell on a Christian: fear and confusion.

All it takes is an act of empathy and imagination: imagine that you have a number of texts from the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita, or Wicca, or... directed in your direction. How would that feel?

I would feel confused, as we are not conversing on a Muslim, Hindu, nor Wiccan forum. Also, perhaps I'm misreading, but I don't think those 3 texts were hostile in any way.

Some people communicate differently than others. For some, quoting texts is a valid means of communication. For others, lots and lots of words on paper (or screen). For others, illustration; and others, through sound.

Jesus loved to use parables. I find the use of parables disturbing. But, for some, they really "hit home."

Anyway.

[M. T. Cross]

I would feel confused, as we are not conversing on a Muslim, Hindu, nor Wiccan forum. Also, perhaps I'm misreading, but I don't think those 3 texts were hostile in any way.

Some people communicate differently than others. For some, quoting texts is a valid means of communication. For others, lots and lots of words on paper (or screen). For others, illustration; and others, through sound.

Jesus loved to use parables. I find the use of parables disturbing. But, for some, they really "hit home."

Anyway.

I do see your point Cricket, and as I said on a Christian site it should be expected to a degree.

However when people do it over and over with little to no commentary of their own it becomes condescending in a way. Its like they need to say something back to you but they could not be bothered to take the time and formulate their own thought. More like "here are these verses that contradict your thoughts, and I know you don't believe in the bible, but I am going to post these at you (not for you) and you are an idiot if you do not get the same thing out of them that I do" At least thats how it comes across to me.

[LifeHiscost]

Addressed to whomever. Some points well taken. Maybe some other time. In the meantime,if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."Jude 1:17-21 KJV

God cares!

[cardw]

Addressed to whomever. Some points well taken. Maybe some other time. In the meantime,if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.Jude 1:17-21 KJV

God cares!

This is a perfect example. There is no addressing of points of reason. Basically I am being called "a mocker with ungodly lusts." And if I complain the suggestion is that I shouldn't worry about it because "if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it."

If this is not addressed to me, then who is it addressed to?

Now if I do the same thing and provide my own offensive quotes I shouldn't complain because we should expect some Bible texts here, only the topic is how to "deal" with those who have not experienced god.

I guess name calling is part of the strategy as long it's couched in a Bible text because Bible verses have magic powers. Because isn't there power in the word of god?

I guess I should quote my own Bible text...

But a witless man can no more become wise than a wild donkey's colt can be born a man. Job 11:12

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

[Live4Him]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Addressed to whomever. Some points well taken. Maybe some other time. In the meantime,if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.Jude 1:17-21 KJV

God cares!

This is a perfect example. There is no addressing of points of reason. Basically I am being called "a mocker with ungodly lusts." And if I complain the suggestion is that I shouldn't worry about it because "if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it."

If this is not addressed to me, then who is it addressed to?

Now if I do the same thing and provide my own offensive quotes I shouldn't complain because we should expect some Bible texts here, only the topic is how to "deal" with those who have not experienced god.

I guess name calling is part of the strategy as long it's couched in a Bible text because Bible verses have magic powers. Because isn't there power in the word of god?

I guess I should quote my own Bible text...

But a witless man can no more become wise than a wild donkey's colt can be born a man. Job 11:12

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

I would be more than happy to try and give a balanced answer to this. My question is if you really want the answer or are you just trolling? Not much sense in, nor is it worth the wasted time in giving a reply if a person is just trolling.

[Bravus]

The thread was dedicated to the question of how to deal with those who have not personally experienced God.

I don't think it's especially controversial to suggest that, although in general on this site Bible quotes are perfectly appropriate, when it comes to reaching those without an experience of God, it is simply not an appropriate approach.

The particular exchange was around the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

Here is my number one tip for reaching the people this thread is about: tell the truth. Don't lie, weasel or dissemble.

Christians have killed for their faith in the past. This is a fact. Denying this fact is lying. Don't lie.

That's it, really simple. Just tell the truth. People respond to truth: and they respond to lies.

[debbym]

Quote:

The thread was dedicated to the question of how to deal with those who have not personally experienced God.

this thread opens up several questions,

the definition of the word God is Love according to scriptures. Agape or divine Love.

so how do you relate to someone who has not experiences divine love,

you love them.

this includes respecting their choice if their choice is to reject that God is love, if they believe there is no God, and if they hold up the idea of God existing to ridicule, mockery, and if they are actively despising every expression that describes God as love.

Now it is very popular online to troll Christians. and There are all kinds of Christians as we clearly know on this forum. Anyone here heard of Christ wire?

there is excellence in atheistic trolling. but i would not say it is friendly to the concept of God's love. I have found personally they love trolling Christians who react. When they get to where they can play them like a well tunes piano in the hands of a maestro, it is a great feast for them.

how do you love a troll who has no interest in God, and loves the pleasure of trolling Christian sites? How do you draw warmth from the coldness of others.

you just love them the same. it is up to you how much you want to feed them.

but to love those who truly have had no experience with God and who are open the being loved, what do you do?

you love them.

God does love everyone the same. and he asks us to be perfect in loving everyone the same, without bias, prejudice, bigotry, or respect of persons. we can only do this through the Holy Spirit Of God, which is the Spirit of Divine Love.

[cricket]

I do see your point Cricket, and as I said on a Christian site it should be expected to a degree.

However when people do it over and over with little to no commentary of their own it becomes condescending in a way. Its like they need to say something back to you but they could not be bothered to take the time and formulate their own thought. More like "here are these verses that contradict your thoughts, and I know you don't believe in the bible, but I am going to post these at you (not for you) and you are an idiot if you do not get the same thing out of them that I do" At least thats how it comes across to me.

Understood. However, that's not how it comes across to me. I think about the times that Jesus only answered with scriptural references. Those were fairly full of impact and it gave the chance for the Holy Spirit to work with the "hearer" of the word so that it be fully understood.

Going back to those original 3 verses, I still don't see how they were hostile. I don't interpret them as being directed at the person, but rather directed at the topic at hand.

[cricket]

I don't think it's especially controversial to suggest that, although in general on this site Bible quotes are perfectly appropriate, when it comes to reaching those without an experience of God, it is simply not an appropriate approach.

That may be true, in some cases. In other cases, it may be entirely appropriate. It depends on the individual. Some people may view themselves as "not having a God experience" and yet maintain that they are Christians. I've met plenty of those people, and for them, scripture is sometimes comforting.

[debbym]

Quote:

Poster: Bravus

Subject: Re: Dealing with those who have not experienced God

'No true Scotsman' again...

is this expression a way of categorizing the response that there are false believers?

well there are.

there is a plethora of representations demonstrating the various effects of truth mixed in error.

so if you love the truth when you see it if you love love, then you will become loving.

or if you don't receive it when it becomes available... then there is an infinite array of choices you will have. and none of them will ask you to love as God loved.

and there you have false believers, who act in less then loving ways, in the name of God.

when the truth is used to prop up misrepresentations of God you end up with "Christians" who have not been changed, and they are controlling and abusive and destructive, toxic and do so much harm, and all the while feel they are so righteous, and holy, and think they serve God. and in History these can cheerfully kill you thinking they are doing God a favor.

Jews who rejected the Love of Christ rejected the remedy for self righteousness, and there was no end to their cruelty.

this is what Paul did before he met Christ.

I am sure the Christians who had loved ones killed by Paul really understood what it was like for someone to think they were doing Good while they persecuted and murdered in God's name, without knowing God.

but because they Knew the love of God, i believe they loved Paul, not his behavior, but they kept on loving him, and praying for him. Just as Jesus had said said pray for those who hate you.

[phkrause]

On the flip side this is a Christian site and one should expect to see a certain amount of Biblical based commentary. However the degree where it is posted back at those that do not follow the bible, with zero commentary other than the verses by the poster is a bit inane. It leaves one wondering if they really have any thought process going on or if they are just quoting by rote.

But if just taken out of context and beating others over the head with them, also doesn't help or share a good light on what your trying to say.

[debbym]

i think this is a religious topic. Just how do you differentiate religious from non religious,

I see religious topics here all the time. how can you explain this when we are not to have religious topics in town hall.

This topic is about God.

[phkrause]

Quote:

Poster: Bravus

Subject: Re: Dealing with those who have not experienced God

'No true Scotsman' again...

is this expression a way of categorizing the response that there are false believers?

well there are.

there is a plethora of representations demonstrating the various effects of truth mixed in error.

so if you love the truth when you see it if you love love, then you will become loving.

or if you don't receive it when it becomes available... then there is an infinite array of choices you will have. and none of them will ask you to love as God loved.

and there you have false believers, who act in less then loving ways, in the name of God.

when the truth is used to prop up misrepresentations of God you end up with "Christians" who have not been changed, and they are controlling and abusive and destructive, toxic and do so much harm, and all the while feel they are so righteous, and holy, and think they serve God. and in History these can cheerfully kill you thinking they are doing God a favor.

Jews who rejected the Love of Christ rejected the remedy for self righteousness, and there was no end to their cruelty.

this is what Paul did before he met Christ.

I am sure the Christians who had loved ones killed by Paul really understood what it was like for someone to think they were doing Good while they persecuted and murdered in God's name, without knowing God.

but because they Knew the love of God, i believe they loved Paul, not his behavior, but they kept on loving him, and praying for him. Just as Jesus had said said pray for those who hate you.

Excellent points debdym

[cardw]

I would be more than happy to try and give a balanced answer to this. My question is if you really want the answer or are you just trolling? Not much sense in, nor is it worth the wasted time in giving a reply if a person is just trolling.

So if I am not a believer and I point out where Christianity is immoral I'm a troll?

Christianity can't hold its own in the free exchange of ideas. This is evidenced when Christians stop addressing the topic and began labeling their detractors.

I don't know what you mean by a balanced response. I would rather have a truthful one.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

:like: Excellent points debdym

_________________________

phkrause

x2

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Christians have killed for their faith in the past.

"Christian" denotes a person who is following Christ. I see no instructions anywhere not just in the Word, where Christ enjoins His followers to kill for the sake of defending Him or His principles, nor where He Himself pursued that plan as a solution.

God cares!

[Gail]

Christians have killed for their faith in the past.

"Christian" denotes a person who is following Christ. I see no instructions anywhere not just in the Word, where Christ enjoins His followers to kill for the sake of defending Him or His principles, nor where He Himself pursued that plan as a solution.

He refused to do it for Himself.

I for one refused to have an abortion in the face of an atheistic family that pressured me to. I also could not lift a gun against another. This is the result of my faith, my Christian faith.

That others can do so is beyond my understanding.